Theft by finding.

UrbanFox

I know that this has been done before but I want to clarify my thinking on the law about finding things, surrendering them, claiming title to them if not claimed and theft by finding.

These are purely theoretical scenarios ;

SCENARIO 1.

D finds a plain envelope on the street containing €500 in cash. There are no clues as to possible ownership and nobody to be seen on the street who might be the owner.

D pockets the money for himself and makes no effort to find the owner.

What offence does he commit and why ?

SCENARIO 2.

D finds a plain envelope on the street containing €500 in cash. There are no clues as to possible ownership and nobody to be seen on the street who might be the owner. D hands it all in to the local Garda station.

Can D subsequently seek lawful possession of the money if nobody reports it missing ? If so, on what legal basis ?

Mr. Incognito

None.

There is no obligation to hand in money. Its a moral question rather than a legal one.

If money is unclaimed after a year in the Garda Station it is to be returned to the finder.

ohnonotgmail

UrbanFox wrote: »

I know that this has been done before but I want to clarify my thinking on the law about finding things, surrendering them, claiming title to them if not claimed and theft by finding.

These are purely theoretical scenarios ;

SCENARIO 1.

D finds a plain envelope on the street containing €500 in cash. There are no clues as to possible ownership and nobody to be seen on the street who might be the owner.

D pockets the money for himself and makes no effort to find the owner.

What offence does he commit and why ?

SCENARIO 2.

D finds a plain envelope on the street containing €500 in cash. There are no clues as to possible ownership and nobody to be seen on the street who might be the owner. D hands it all in to the local Garda station.

Can D subsequently seek lawful possession of the money if nobody reports it missing ? If so, on what legal basis ?

Scenario 1

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/50/section/4/enacted/en/html#sec4

Scenario 2

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1897/act/30/enacted/en/print.html

you have to wait a year and a day

ohnonotgmail

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

None.

There is no obligation to hand in money. Its a moral question rather than a legal one.

If money is unclaimed after a year in the Garda Station it is to be returned to the finder.

this is not correct. you have a legal obligation to find the owner.

AvonEnniskerry

UrbanFox wrote:

D finds a plain envelope on the street containing €500 in cash. There are no clues as to possible ownership and nobody to be seen on the street who might be the owner. D hands it all in to the local Garda station.

What's to say the guard doesn't pocket it?

GM228

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

None.

There is no obligation to hand in money. Its a moral question rather than a legal one.

Scenario 1 is theft.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/man-convicted-of-theft-after-finding-nearly-3-000-in-bush-1.289077%253Fmode%253Damp&ved=0ahUKEwi63aChq-rTAhXsAsAKHaUnBmkQFggfMAE&usg=AFQjCNGzsWFvIE5QAEJmlc-MxqPtd6ns2A

Erik Shin

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

What's to say the guard doesn't pocket it?

You get a receipt upon taking it to the Garda station

coylemj

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

this is not correct. you have a legal obligation to find the owner.

Not 100% correct either, you are required to take 'reasonable steps' to find the owner. So if it was a trivial amount like a fiver, it would probably be reasonable to stand there for a few minutes to see if someone comes back retracing their steps and looking for it, after which you could just keep it.

For more substantial amounts, placing notices in local shops would be a start in terms of taking reasonable steps.

Handing it into a Garda station would not IMHO be sensible. There is a long history of cash disappearing from stations due to there being no effective audit trail on who gains access to the lost property store and there is a serious chance that after a year and a day the cash would have disappeared without trace.

AvonEnniskerry

Erik Shin wrote:

You get a receipt upon taking it to the Garda station

All that does is tell you that you left it there. Not that in a year's time it'll have been collected by the rightful owner. You go back in a year and a day and the guard tells you it's been collected...

Erik Shin

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

All that does is tell you that you left it there. Not that in a year's time it'll have been collected by the rightful owner. You go back in a year and a day and the guard tells you it's been collected...

Upon which a countersigned receipt had to be produced

AvonEnniskerry

Erik Shin wrote:

Upon which a countersigned receipt had to be produced

Countersigned by who? You are told the goods were collected and shown a countersigned receipt... But you don't know the rightful owners signature... Or details. ???

Erik Shin

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

Countersigned by who? You are told the goods were collected and shown a countersigned receipt... But you don't know the rightful owners signature... Or details. ???

Well if you wish to find a conspiracy, you'll find one, I'm just going on my own experience and an item I collected 13 months later

Victor

Isn't one entitled to a reward for sums found?

AvonEnniskerry

Erik Shin wrote:

Well if you wish to find a conspiracy, you'll find one, I'm just going on my own experience and an item I collected 13 months later

I'm not looking for a conspiracy. Merely pointing out that if you hand something of interest to the guard ie €500 cash that it's very possible that you won't get it back. Items such as jewelry are more likely to be retrieved as they are recognisable but cash is easily pocketed

GM228

Victor wrote: »

Isn't one entitled to a reward for sums found?

No, it was certainly an option under the S2 (2)(b) of the Police (Property) Act 1897 for a ministerial regulation to allow for such compensation, but no such regulations were ever made.

Victor

GM228 wrote: »

No, it was certainly an option under the S2 (2)(b) of the Police (Property) Act 1897 for a ministerial regulation to allow for such compensation, but no such regulations were ever made.

So, something like this: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/former-priory-hall-resident-to-get-share-of-mcfeely-bath-cash-1.1629594 is merely goodwill?

GM228

Victor wrote: »

So, something like this: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/former-priory-hall-resident-to-get-share-of-mcfeely-bath-cash-1.1629594 is merely goodwill?

Pretty much, Chris Lehane requested the High Court release some of the money to pay them a reward as the money was destined for secured creditors of McFeely.

Victor

I suppose it also means the receiver would be more likely to get a proportion of anything else that gets found.

tayto lover

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

I'm not looking for a conspiracy. Merely pointing out that if you hand something of interest to the guard ie €500 cash that it's very possible that you won't get it back. Items such as jewelry are more likely to be retrieved as they are recognisable but cash is easily pocketed

Hold on to the money and inform the Garda that you found a sum of money in an envelope. Do not disclose the amount. Give your name and contact number and the person who reports the loss can contact you.

ED E

I suspect this thread was spawned by Liveline as they discussed it on Thursday.

One of the callers claimed the Gardai had new procedure and it is now 3 months not 366 days. Is that correct?