Is Warehouse allowed for Worship

jacobspt

Hi All

We as a church are planning to buy a warehouse in an industrial estate as our permanent place of worship.

My question is:

Is Industrial estate's allowed for this purpose. If not, how will I know the details of that particular site.

Could we use it for the purpose of community gathering or else...
Any suggestions welcomed, brain storming needed please....

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Victor

There are some congregations that have followed this route.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This will be one of the most important parts. You will also need a fire certificate, a disability access certificate and possibly other paperwork. The change of use may mean you will need to comply with the building regulations and the city / county development plan, which may mean physical alterations to the building, but I suspect these obligations would be low for the intended use.

The council won't turn a blind eye to changes due to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stardust_fire

infogiver

Victor wrote: »

There are some congregations that have followed this route.
This will be one of the most important parts. You will also need a fire certificate, a disability access certificate and possibly other paperwork. The change of use may mean you will need to comply with the building regulations and the city / county development plan, which may mean physical alterations tot he building, but I suspect these obligations would be low for the intended use.

The council won't turn a blind eye to changes due to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stardust_fire

This is interesting, thanks.
A group got together to rent out an empty shop as a place of worship and I heard that they were surprised to find that it wasn't just a matter of moving in, putting up some blinds and getting on with it.
The one thing that I heard was that they had removed the street number from the door and taped up the letter box and both those things had to be reversed.
But I had no idea that there were that amount of complications.

Peregrinus

You shouldn't be surprised. If they were building a church they'd obviously have to get planning permission, comply with building regulations, and comply with other legislation aimed at ensuring safety and health in places of public resort. The policy considerations which underlie these requirements don't go away just because you are adapting an existing building rather than putting up a new one.

infogiver

Peregrinus wrote: »

You shouldn't be surprised. If they were building a church they'd obviously have to get planning permission, comply with building regulations, and comply with other legislation aimed at ensuring safety and health in places of public resort. The policy considerations which underlie these requirements don't go away just because you are adapting an existing building rather than putting up a new one.

I just thought that when the building was no longer going to be open to the public, just to specifically invited people, that the rules would be different.
That's very informative. Thank you.

Peregrinus

Churches in the Christian tradition are generally open to the public; all comers are welcome and, indeed, are keenly encouraged. Christian worship is generally conceived to be a public affair.

There are a couple of exceptions - the Exclusive Brethern aren't called that for nothing - but they really are pretty much on the fringes of Christianity. Obviously I don't know anything about the group that the OP refers to, but my default assumption would be that all are likely to be welcome at their services.

infogiver

Peregrinus wrote: »

Churches in the Christian tradition are generally open to the public; all comers are welcome and, indeed, are keenly encouraged. Christian worship is generally conceived to be a public affair.

There are a couple of exceptions - the Exclusive Brethern aren't called that for nothing - but they really are pretty much on the fringes of Christianity. Obviously I don't know anything about the group that the OP refers to, but my default assumption would be that all are likely to be welcome at their services.

It's not a Christian place of worship.
A specified member of the group holds the keys, opens up the premises at the pre arranged time, worshippers arrive and when the service starts the door is closed until it's over.
Much like an arranged meeting of any "club" I suppose.

ohnonotgmail

infogiver wrote: »

It's not a Christian place of worship.
A specified member of the group holds the keys, opens up the premises at the pre arranged time, worshippers arrive and when the service starts the door is closed until it's over.
Much like an arranged meeting of any "club" I suppose.

if it is being used as a club then it needs to meet the same regulations as a clubhouse re fire safety and disabled access.

Victor

Also note that you may need your landlord's agreement if renting. If buying, there may be rules for the industrial estate (in some industrial estates, the roads are privately owned, even if there is no gates) you must comply with, e.g. use only your own parking spaces.

In saying all of this, the implications might not actually be all that difficult to comply with.

infogiver

Victor wrote: »

Also note that you may need your landlord's agreement if renting. If buying, there may be rules for the industrial estate (in some industrial estates, the roads are privately owned, even if there is no gates) you must comply with, e.g. use only your own parking spaces.

In saying all of this, the implications might not actually be all that difficult to comply with.

Well the meetings continued and continue unabated.
It originally caused a bit of a stir around the town, but nobody pays any heed now.

BoatMad

jacobspt wrote: »

Hi All

We as a church are planning to buy a warehouse in an industrial estate as our permanent place of worship.

My question is:

Is Industrial estate's allowed for this purpose. If not, how will I know the details of that particular site.

Could we use it for the purpose of community gathering or else...
Any suggestions welcomed, brain storming needed please....

just the usual planning, fire certification , insurance , etc as any building being used in essence as a public gathering place.

the religious aspect is irrelevant

Peregrinus

infogiver wrote: »

It's not a Christian place of worship.
A specified member of the group holds the keys, opens up the premises at the pre arranged time, worshippers arrive and when the service starts the door is closed until it's over.
Much like an arranged meeting of any "club" I suppose.

Ah, OK. My previous comments were directed at the OP's case, involving change of use from warehouse to worship centre. Your case is different.

In your case, I assume that there is currently planning permission to use the shop premises as, well, a shop. I think from a planning point of view what you need is permission to change the use from "shop" to the use specified in Sch 2 Pt 4 Class 7 of the Planning and Development Regulations, which covers use:

(a) for public worship or religious instruction,

(b) for the social or recreational activities of a religious body,

(c) as a monastery or convent.

Note that Class 7 covers a variety of both open-to-the-public and members-only or invitation-only uses of the property. Once you have a planning permission that mentions Class 7 use, you can (subject to any specific conditions or restrictions written into your permission) use the premises for any of those activities, and you can switch between them without needing further approval.

If you apply for planning permission, they'll do things like look at the kitchen and toilet facilities of the premises versus the numbers of people that you expect to be coming, the parking situation in the area versus the amount of traffic that you generate, etc. The result may be that you have to, e.g., either extend the toilet facilities or accept a restriction in your planning permission that specifies not more than X number of people at meeting.

Basically, you either have to make the building suitable for the kind of activities you want to conduct, or limit your activities that what the building is already suitable for.

Depending, obviously, on how suitable the premises already are for the kinds of activities you want to carry on, this may not cramp your style very much. You could, for example, end up with a planning permission that says "Class 7 use, but nobody may live on the premises or sleep there overnight", which obviously rules out use as a convent or monastery, but not being able to do that probably wouldn't bother you.

As long as you don't apply for change of use permission, you're operating in breach of the planning regulations. The planning authority may not take any enforcement action against you unless your activities cause a problem, or somebody complains.

Still, you would want to check whether operating without the necessary planning permission has any implications for (a) your lease (I note you've rented the building, not bought it) and/or (b) your insurance cover. In particular your public liability cover might be an issue. If there's an accident in the building arising out of activities for which, it turns out, you needed planning permission that you didn't have, and if the planning permission for that kind of activity would probably have been conditional on making changes to the building which you hadn't made, then your insurers may seek to disclaim cover.

And your landlord will be more than shirty if it turns out your failure to obtain planning permission for your activities leads to his insurance cover for the building being voided, which I think it could do.

brian_t

At this stage in Ireland there must be 'tens of' if not 'hundreds of' church services been held in industrial units every Sunday morning.

Including non-christian denominations.

Peregrinus

Yes. But I daresay many or most of them have the necessary planning permission. It wouldn't be difficult to get, and on the whole their life is going to be easier if they get it than if they don't.

ohnonotgmail

brian_t wrote: »

At this stage in Ireland there must be 'tens of' if not 'hundreds of' church services been held in industrial units every Sunday morning.

Including non-christian denominations.

why is this relevant?

infogiver

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

why is this relevant?

completely irrelevant.

brian_t

infogiver wrote: »

completely irrelevant.

Indeed.

ohnonotgmail

brian_t wrote: »

Indeed.

so why mention it?

Mrs OBumble

brian_t wrote: »

At this stage in Ireland there must be 'tens of' if not 'hundreds of' church services been held in industrial units every Sunday morning..

I think there would be close to 10 just in Galway.

They're quite a different use from what industrial units were designed for which can cause some issues for participants, eg carparks not designed for families with kids.

But the way that many "do" church is quite different to the traditional irish model - eg no dropping in to light candles etc, which minimises problems that some would anticipate.

I guess our planning rules must have managed to understand the differences, for it to be so widespread. Either that or thete are hundreds of churches oprrating witjput planning permission.

Peregrinus

As long as the necessary adaptations are made to the buildings (mostly, to toilet and kitchen facilities) it doesn't raise huge planning issues, and in many respects planners would welcome it. Industrial estates tend to be ghostly quiet on a Sunday; having churches open brings a bit of life and movement to them. Having a bit of movement and action about the place tends to reduce crime and/or antisocial behaviour in the neighbourhood. The additional traffic generated, and the associated parking requirements, don't generally cause a problem because it's on a Sunday.

My guess would be that they mostly do have planning permission, since not having it could cause them insurance and/or landlord problems, and that they get it without very much difficulty.