Advice needed

martinsvi

Hi All,

I got my licence many moons ago in a country far far away. My gf is now learning to drive in Ireland and we somehow foolishly thought that the instructor will show and teach everything she needs to know to pass her exam.. 12 lessons later our chap has congratulated her for completing the course and insists he's done here, yet I don't think she's any closer passing the exam.. I don't know what the standards are in Ireland, but the whole experience have left us confused to say the least.

where do I start -

what's with the coasting? Is it really a big no no? I've been coasting all my life, saves fuel and brakes, it pains me to see how she struggles to approach the red light with engine in the gear being rough and tough simply because our instructor told her to do so.. what's it has to do with the road safety?

dry turning - now here's something I've never heard of before - apparently when making a 3 point turn, you have to turn the wheels in the opposite direction whilst still moving. Turning the wheels whilst being stationary apparently is another no no.. really?

at the same time, no attention has been paid to overtaking, parallel parking (or any parking for that matter) etc, I honestly don't know where to go from here. Where I did my training you couldn't apply for an exam unless the instructor has done mock exam with you and is fully happy you will not only pass but are actually road-ready..

biko

Instructor is certified here and is giving her the info she needs to be able to pass the driving test here, not in a country far far away.

Coasting is considered bad form here. I do it too but have been told it's a bad habit as you are just rolling along not really in control.
Same for dry steering, bad for car as it straining the tyres and power steering.

Del2005

How does coasting save fuel? When a car is in over run the ignition turns off and no fuel is burnt, when the engine is idling during coasting its burning fuel. Without engine braking you need to use more brakes, so are wearing the pads more. If you can't stop a car in gear you need more practice.

Dry turning is bad for the tyres so should be avoided if possible.

You aren't supposed to be up to test standard at the end of the 12 lessons, some people who get plenty of practice between lessons might be but others could require way more lessons and practice. The 12 lessons was brought in as a compromise from people turning up without any correct instructions, hopefully in a few years they'll make training more comprehensive with night, motorway and wet driving but the amount of grief from trying to introduce 12 basic lessons was terrible. We still have a large amount of people who think driving is a right so don't bother complying with the terms of the permit and drive unaccompanied, which in every other country would result in fines/points and possibly the car being lifted while here it's OK.

Our test does not test for parallel parking and since they are usually done 50 or 60 zones its not necessary to overtake so it's not thought to permit holders. If you want to learn these you can get more lessons after you pass the test.

cantdecide

Coasting is harder on the brakes if anything - if you gear down correctly, you're combining the brakes with engine braking sharing the load. I remember being instructed to keep the car 'under control' and avoid coasting.

'Dry turning' is bad for your tyres and hard on your steering.

Consider the EDT lessons as an introduction only. They are not designed to make you test-ready. There is an unwritten expectation that you will raise your skill level in the real world under the care of a fully licenced driver as we don't have off-road schools and rigorous training regimes like elsewhere but we still have a testing regime as stringent as any. If she has access to a car to learn, you should expect her instructor to maybe do a series of weekly lessons for a while supplemented by you being her fully licenced driver to taking her out and implementing what her instructor is telling her.

martinsvi

biko wrote: »

Coasting is considered bad form here. I do it too but have been told it's a bad habit as you are just rolling along not really in control.
Same for dry steering, bad for car as it straining the tyres and power steering.

If I'm approaching roundabout or red light at 60kmh, I have one foot on the clutch, the other one on the brake but not being pressed. I roll out with idle RPMs from a distance allowing car to gently slow down by itself. When reaching the last dozen of meters I evaluate the situation and either start pressing the brake (when car has already slowed down to 30-40) or if the light goes green or roundabout is free, I just select the appropriate gear and drive on..

in about 70% of the roundabouts/lights I know the flow, I know what's its going to do and end up using very little to no brake at all and I can see from the fuel flow meter it's not eating more than 0.7lph. Keeping in the gear is more costly on the fuel even if there's no demand, it still creeps up to 2lph territory , and although the brake usage might work out the same, you have to consider other components like timing belt that spin and turn at higher rpms for no reason. (please note, I'm talking about driving on level roads, not coming downhill where braking with the engine is the smart option)

now tell me again, how am I not in control or not being economical?

the dry turning is another silliness - power steering doing exactly what its supposed to be doing, show me one line in user manual of any car manufacturer that advises against dry steering? We are using tires that can handle 180mph on an autobahn yet we are worried that a bit of turning whilst stationary will damage it? Give me a break..

All I wanted to confirm is if it really is the case that examiners in Ireland believe this nonsense .. if it's true, we will just have to suck it up and do it their way, although I would much rather prefer to be teaching her how to read the flow and traffic at this stage rather than how to comply with some myths

cantdecide

martinsvi wrote: »

If I'm approaching roundabout or red light at 60kmh, I have one foot on the clutch, the other one on the brake but not being pressed. I roll out with idle RPMs from a distance allowing car to gently slow down by itself. When reaching the last dozen of meters I evaluate the situation and either start pressing the brake (when car has already slowed down to 30-40) or if the light goes green or roundabout is free, I just select the appropriate gear and drive on..

in about 70% of the roundabouts/lights I know the flow, I know what's its going to do and end up using very little to no brake at all and I can see from the fuel flow meter it's not eating more than 0.7lph. Keeping in the gear is more costly on the fuel even if there's no demand, it still creeps up to 2lph territory , and although the brake usage might work out the same, you have to consider other components like timing belt that spin and turn at higher rpms for no reason. (please note, I'm talking about driving on level roads, not coming downhill where braking with the engine is the smart option).

now tell me again, how am I not in control or not being economical?

Believe what you want but coasting is harder on the car. Ask a mechanic. If you're downshifting correctly, if removes the gear decision in the case where traffic either backs up or pushes through. What you do is considered a lazy short cut.

The economy difference is completely academic.

martinsvi wrote: »

the dry turning is another silliness - power steering doing exactly what its supposed to be doing, show me one line in user manual of any car manufacturer that advises against dry steering? We are using tires that can handle 180mph on an autobahn yet we are worried that a bit of turning whilst stationary will damage it? Give me a break...

Tyres- excess wear. Ask a mechanic.

Steering joints - they'll wear faster. Ask a mechanic.

martinsvi wrote: »

All I wanted to confirm is if it really is the case that examiners in Ireland believe this nonsense .. if it's true, we will just have to suck it up and do it their way, although I would much rather prefer to be teaching her how to read the flow and traffic at this stage rather than how to comply with some myths

You're wrong on all counts, my good man. If you want an easy life, just submit to the process - the vast majority of it is based on sound theory whether we agree with it or not. Instructors are the product of a massive bureaucracy- if the instructor undertook to get her test ready from scratch, you'd be bad mouthing them for taking all your money.

2Mad2BeMad

martinsvi wrote: »

If I'm approaching roundabout or red light at 60kmh, I have one foot on the clutch, the other one on the brake but not being pressed. I roll out with idle RPMs from a distance allowing car to gently slow down by itself. When reaching the last dozen of meters I evaluate the situation and either start pressing the brake (when car has already slowed down to 30-40) or if the light goes green or roundabout is free, I just select the appropriate gear and drive on..

in about 70% of the roundabouts/lights I know the flow, I know what's its going to do and end up using very little to no brake at all and I can see from the fuel flow meter it's not eating more than 0.7lph. Keeping in the gear is more costly on the fuel even if there's no demand, it still creeps up to 2lph territory , and although the brake usage might work out the same, you have to consider other components like timing belt that spin and turn at higher rpms for no reason. (please note, I'm talking about driving on level roads, not coming downhill where braking with the engine is the smart option)

now tell me again, how am I not in control or not being economical?

the dry turning is another silliness - power steering doing exactly what its supposed to be doing, show me one line in user manual of any car manufacturer that advises against dry steering? We are using tires that can handle 180mph on an autobahn yet we are worried that a bit of turning whilst stationary will damage it? Give me a break..

All I wanted to confirm is if it really is the case that examiners in Ireland believe this nonsense .. if it's true, we will just have to suck it up and do it their way, although I would much rather prefer to be teaching her how to read the flow and traffic at this stage rather than how to comply with some myths

You sound like a terrible driver, I pity anyone that buys a 2nd hand car from you.

Your GF is being taught correctly, you are destroying your wheels and breakpads

Just google coasting related crashs. Sure their was one their a few months ago, a few young lads in a car going downhill the driver decided to coast to "save fuel" he lost control around a bend and his friends died and he went to prison.

You are not in full control of the car if coasting.

The person who thought me to drive showed me an example.
Next time your on a big hill, coast half way down it then put it in gear, theirs a major difference.

martinsvi

cantdecide wrote: »

Believe what you want but coasting is harder on the car. Ask a mechanic. .

ok, explain why do some of the modern trucks such as Volvo FH12 with I-shift will coast the gear box and idle the engine automatically for you if the power is not required?

martinsvi

2Mad2BeMad wrote: »

You sound like a terrible driver, I pity anyone that buys a 2nd hand car from you.
[..]
Next time your on a big hill, coast half way down it then put it in gear, theirs a major difference.

my record indicates otherwise.. and I specifically said, I'm not talking about situations where going downhill

cantdecide

martinsvi wrote: »

ok, explain why do some of the modern trucks such as Volvo FH12 with I-shift will coast the gear box and idle the engine automatically for you if the power is not required?

It's a robotised manual gearbox - they all do that or they'd stall when you come to a stop.

martinsvi

cantdecide wrote: »

It's a robotised manual gearbox - they all do that or they'd stall when you come to a stop.

so it's fine for a truck, but very bad for the car? right lads, thank you very much, I got what I needed, I'm happy we can close this thread

cantdecide

martinsvi wrote: »

so it's fine for a truck, but very bad for the car? right lads, thank you very much, I got what I needed, I'm happy we can close this thread

What you're not understanding is why and more importantly how the feature works. It does not emulate coasting when stopping from speed. It simply engages the clutch automatically at the very last second when it detects the vehicle about to come to a halt, just like you should in a manual car.

Del2005

martinsvi wrote: »

If I'm approaching roundabout or red light at 60kmh, I have one foot on the clutch, the other one on the brake but not being pressed. I roll out with idle RPMs from a distance allowing car to gently slow down by itself. When reaching the last dozen of meters I evaluate the situation and either start pressing the brake (when car has already slowed down to 30-40) or if the light goes green or roundabout is free, I just select the appropriate gear and drive on..

in about 70% of the roundabouts/lights I know the flow, I know what's its going to do and end up using very little to no brake at all and I can see from the fuel flow meter it's not eating more than 0.7lph. Keeping in the gear is more costly on the fuel even if there's no demand, it still creeps up to 2lph territory , and although the brake usage might work out the same, you have to consider other components like timing belt that spin and turn at higher rpms for no reason. (please note, I'm talking about driving on level roads, not coming downhill where braking with the engine is the smart option)

now tell me again, how am I not in control or not being economical?

the dry turning is another silliness - power steering doing exactly what its supposed to be doing, show me one line in user manual of any car manufacturer that advises against dry steering? We are using tires that can handle 180mph on an autobahn yet we are worried that a bit of turning whilst stationary will damage it? Give me a break..

All I wanted to confirm is if it really is the case that examiners in Ireland believe this nonsense .. if it's true, we will just have to suck it up and do it their way, although I would much rather prefer to be teaching her how to read the flow and traffic at this stage rather than how to comply with some myths

Never believe the dash display in a car. If you are on over run all modern fuel injected cars stop pumping fuel so you aren't burning any, if you coast you are using fuel. The other issue with coasting is that most brake servos work off engine vacuum, if you are coasting there'll be no vacuum so you can loose the servo assisted braking. The car will slow down faster if left in gear than coasting, engine braking is the one thing I miss since going auto.

Park on some concrete and do some dry steering, see how much rubber is left on. Then do some steering at idle and see how much rubber is deposited.

You have to teach her how to pass our test, what you do after is up to you. But her instructor has taught her how to pass an Irish test and you then introducing other elements after wards could lead to more confusion for her. Reading the road and traffic conditions should be though regardless of how you drive.

What country teaches drivers to coast?

martinsvi

right, I admit my mistake. I know what I know about engines from aviation, my technical training has been done on heavy, old piston engines where the RPMs have direct relationship with fuel flow. What I'm reading now on some of the articles and fancy leaflets that indeed when there's no demand the flow doesn't go unless it reaches idling RPMs - then the fuel is added to actually keep the engine alive. You learn something new every day!

Anyone know how long is the exam?

martinsvi

Del2005 wrote: »

What country teaches drivers to coast?

no one is teaching people to coast, it's just not something that examiners would worry about. Again, I did my exam ages ago, things change, maybe now they do pay attention to it