Taking relief from unplayable lie

billy3sheets

The rule for taking relief from unplayable lie is rule 28
http://www.randa.org/Rules-of-Golf/MainRules/28-Ball-Unplayable

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole

Why is this within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay which might not give you any relief - such as if your ball is more than 2 club lengths into bushes?
Why is it not like relief from a staked tree, where you take relief from your nearest point of relief and not from where the ball lies?

I encountered this recently. I played a 170 yard shot which I saw bouncing near bushes. I played a provisional which was good. I found my first ball in the bushes so my provisional had to be discarded.
2 club lengths from my ball was still in the bushes. The option of going back behind the ball was not available. I didn't fancy a 170 yard walk back to where I orginally hit my ball from. It was a stableford comp so I just scratched that hole.

Did I have any other options?
Is this rule up for modification ?

Senna

Yep, those are the options and just blanking the hole is what most people do.

I think the only other "possible" option is not to look for your ball, if it's in such a bad spot that you know you wont be able to get out of it, then just play your provisional. AFAIK you don't have to look for any ball, but of course it means you have to know the lie you are going to have before seeing it. And a playing partner can find it.

AnneFrank

Is it not 2 clubs from nearest point of relief?

zimmermania

You could have declared the first ball lost and not searched for it at all.

bustercherry

If you Take a drop under a penalty and it's still unplayable, you could potently take another drop under a second penalty.

Jawgap

The only other option seems to have been what @bustercherry suggested which would likely have made for a scratch anyway.

The rule in respect of staked trees is simply to protect the trees for the long term good of the course. I don't think too many would mind a rapid growing, well established hedge or bush being hacked at by a player - it'll recover, but younger trees, if the bark is seriously damaged can fail to thrive and ultimately die.....and they're expensive.

AFAIK, there are no proposals to change the rule.

Golfgraffix

zimmermania wrote: »

You could have declared the first ball lost and not searched for it at all.

It's been a while since I have seen this old chestnut here, i saw it a few weeks at an interclub match.

To be clear there is nothing a player can say to make a ball lost.

It's only lost if it can't be found within the five minutes. It could be deemed out of play if a player puts another ball in play without declaring a provisional.

The case i saw last week was in a singles matchplay, player A hit a ball into bushes and hit a provisional to the centre of the fairway. After seeing his competitor's ball behind a tree calls out I am declaring my first ball lost. Player B still looks for players A ball and finds it within the five minutes, big argument insues but Player A had to continue with his first ball.

OP, I guess if the option to back in line with the point of entry and the pin was not there the only other option would have been to take anither drop. I had seen one before where the 1st drop was two clubs sideways then that allowed the player a different point to go back as far as he wanted, brings up a question of point of entry though.

Rules can be a minefield.

J

ShriekingSheet

Golfgraffix wrote: »

It's been a while since I have seen this old chestnut here, i saw it a few weeks at an interclub match.

To be clear there is nothing a player can say to make a ball lost.

It's only lost if it can't be found within the five minutes. It could be deemed out of play if a player puts another ball in play without declaring a provisional.

The case i saw last week was in a singles matchplay, player A hit a ball into bushes and hit a provisional to the centre of the fairway. After seeing his competitor's ball behind a tree calls out I am declaring my first ball lost. Player B still looks for players A ball and finds it within the five minutes, big argument insues but Player A had to continue with his first ball.

OP, I guess if the option to back in line with the point of entry and the pin was not there the only other option would have been to take anither drop. I had seen one before where the 1st drop was two clubs sideways then that allowed the player a different point to go back as far as he wanted, brings up a question of point of entry though.

Rules can be a minefield.

J

+1 to all of this.

Though I think it's really bad etiquette to do the looking for an opponents ball thing. It's within the rules, but a bit of a snake move in my view.

The guy is presumably already lying 3 off the tee anyway so the majority of the time it isn't necessary to do anything other than play mediocre golf to win the hole.

And even if you find it, he will likely just go back to the tee and if he hit a good provo there's a good chance he'll be back where he was in 3 anyway.

Seems like quite nasty behaviour without any real benefit.

Jawgap

Golfgraffix wrote: »

...........


OP, I guess if the option to back in line with the point of entry and the pin was not there the only other option would have been to take anither drop. I had seen one before where the 1st drop was two clubs sideways then that allowed the player a different point to go back as far as he wanted, brings up a question of point of entry though.

Rules can be a minefield.

J

Taking one drop then another means the original point where the ball lay becomes irrelevant. I think in this situation, you could take your first drop within two club lengths then drop back......but the point of entry is not point you need to worry about.

The drop back should be done behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped.

Point of entry is only relevant for water hazards.

An alternative might have been to drop into GUR or onto an obstruction if one was handy and then take free relief from that.

paulos53

Golfgraffix wrote: »

It's been a while since I have seen this old chestnut here, i saw it a few weeks at an interclub match.

To be clear there is nothing a player can say to make a ball lost.

It's only lost if it can't be found within the five minutes. It could be deemed out of play if a player puts another ball in play without declaring a provisional.

The case i saw last week was in a singles matchplay, player A hit a ball into bushes and hit a provisional to the centre of the fairway. After seeing his competitor's ball behind a tree calls out I am declaring my first ball lost. Player B still looks for players A ball and finds it within the five minutes, big argument insues but Player A had to continue with his first ball.

OP, I guess if the option to back in line with the point of entry and the pin was not there the only other option would have been to take anither drop. I had seen one before where the 1st drop was two clubs sideways then that allowed the player a different point to go back as far as he wanted, brings up a question of point of entry though.

Rules can be a minefield.

J

If Player A's provisional ball is closer to the hole than the original ball in the bushes then once he plays the provisional ball again the original becomes lost.

That would force player B to stop searching as finding the ball at that point wouldn't matter

BigChap1759

Golfgraffix wrote: »

It's been a while since I have seen this old chestnut here, i saw it a few weeks at an interclub match.

To be clear there is nothing a player can say to make a ball lost.

It's only lost if it can't be found within the five minutes. It could be deemed out of play if a player puts another ball in play without declaring a provisional.

The case i saw last week was in a singles matchplay, player A hit a ball into bushes and hit a provisional to the centre of the fairway. After seeing his competitor's ball behind a tree calls out I am declaring my first ball lost. Player B still looks for players A ball and finds it within the five minutes, big argument insues but Player A had to continue with his first ball.

OP, I guess if the option to back in line with the point of entry and the pin was not there the only other option would have been to take anither drop. I had seen one before where the 1st drop was two clubs sideways then that allowed the player a different point to go back as far as he wanted, brings up a question of point of entry though.

Rules can be a minefield.

J

I'm pretty sure the player can just hit a second ball, not a provisional, and that is then the ball in play

newport2

BigChap1759 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the player can just hit a second ball, not a provisional, and that is then the ball in play

Yes he can, but this decision must be taken before he hits his second (well third) shot off the tee. He can't wait until he sees it in the middle of the fairway - or sees where his first ball actually ended up - before deciding what he's going to do.

Armchair Andy

One of my pet hates is telling my playing partners to walk on ,when having seen where my ball could potentially lie I decide to walk on and play my provisional, yet they continue to search.
Fair enough if a matchplay and opposition wants to, but in an open comp, bad form imo.
Lads "innocently" looking for my ball in the sh1t knowing full well what they're doing.

zimmermania

Golfgraffix wrote: »

It's been a while since I have seen this old chestnut here, i saw it a few weeks at an interclub match.

To be clear there is nothing a player can say to make a ball lost.

It's only lost if it can't be found within the five minutes. It could be deemed out of play if a player puts another ball in play without declaring a provisional.

The case i saw last week was in a singles matchplay, player A hit a ball into bushes and hit a provisional to the centre of the fairway. After seeing his competitor's ball behind a tree calls out I am declaring my first ball lost. Player B still looks for players A ball and finds it within the five minutes, big argument insues but Player A had to continue with his first ball.

OP, I guess if the option to back in line with the point of entry and the pin was not there the only other option would have been to take anither drop. I had seen one before where the 1st drop was two clubs sideways then that allowed the player a different point to go back as far as he wanted, brings up a question of point of entry though.

Rules can be a minefield.

J

It is lost the moment he plays the provisional ball or in 5 minutes,depending on which event occurs first.

ChippingSodbury

zimmermania wrote: »

It is lost the moment he plays the provisional ball or in 5 minutes,depending on which event occurs first.

It might not be his turn to play and he cannot decide to play out of turn in matchplay.

paulos53

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

It might not be his turn to play and he cannot decide to play out of turn in matchplay.

There is no penalty for playing out of turn except that your opponent can request that you play the shot again.

So playing out of turn on purpose is still a valid tactic to stop your opponent searching for your original ball

Jawgap

paulos53 wrote: »

There is no penalty for playing out of turn except that your opponent can request that you play the shot again.

So playing out of turn on purpose is still a valid tactic to stop your opponent searching for your original ball

I don't think you would. Your opponent can recall the stroke so even though you've struck the ball, the fact the stroke has been recalled means you have not put a ball in play, so on he can search until the 5 minutes are up.

paulos53

See the bolded part below from the decisions sections of the Rules

27-2b/1 Continuation of Play with Provisional Ball Without Searching for Original Ball

Q.
At a par-3 hole, a player hits his tee shot into dense woods. He then hits a provisional ball which comes to rest near the hole. In view of the position of the provisional ball, the player does not wish to find his original ball. He does not search for it and walks directly towards his provisional ball to continue play with it. His opponent (or fellow-competitor) believes it would be beneficial to him if the original ball were found. May the opponent (or fellow-competitor) search for the player's ball?

A.
Yes. In equity (Rule 1-4) he may search for five minutes provided that in the meantime the player does not play a stroke with the provisional ball, it being nearer the hole than the place where the original ball is likely to be. The player is entitled to play such a stroke. If he does, the original ball is then lost under Rule 27-2b and further search for it would serve no purpose. In match play, if the player so proceeds and his provisional ball is closer to the hole than his opponent's ball, his opponent may recall the stroke (Rule 10-1c). However, recalling the stroke would not change the status of the original ball, which was lost when the provisional ball was played out of turn. See also Decision 27-2c/2.

billy3sheets

The "taking relief" rules are a bit silly if they don't actually result in you getting relief, no?

Relief from a pathway can give you proper relief or not depending on where your nearest point of relief is. But again the relief may no be relief and you can opt to play the ball as it lies on the path.

BigChap1759

billy3sheets wrote: »

The "taking relief" rules are a bit silly if they don't actually result in you getting relief, no?

Relief from a pathway can give you proper relief or not depending on where your nearest point of relief is. But again the relief may no be relief and you can opt to play the ball as it lies on the path.

But this is taking an unplayable, not taking relief?

Why should you get relief from the middle of a bush you've hit your ball into - IMO the options under unplayable aren more than adequate as you do have the option to go back and reply the shot under penalty if thwe two club lengths or back in line with the pin do not help.

bustercherry

billy3sheets wrote: »

The "taking relief" rules are a bit silly if they don't actually result in you getting relief, no?

Relief from a pathway can give you proper relief or not depending on where your nearest point of relief is. But again the relief may no be relief and you can opt to play the ball as it lies on the path.

Or you may not be entitled to relief from a path to begin with

Russman

Op, don't forget that when you take an unplayable and drop within 2 club lengths, the ball can travel a further 2 club lengths (not nearer the hole) from the spot it first hits the ground, so potentially you can get almost 4 club lengths.

Nearest point of relief doesn't come in the equation at all when taking an unplayable. You can choose where to drop with an unplayable (ie 2 club lengths, back in a straight line etc), nearest point of relief isn't open to debate, its a matter of fact.

billy3sheets

BigChap1759 wrote: »

But this is taking an unplayable, not taking relief?

Why should you get relief from the middle of a bush you've hit your ball into - IMO the options under unplayable aren more than adequate as you do have the option to go back and reply the shot under penalty if thwe two club lengths or back in line with the pin do not help.

The idea surely is to be able to move your ball somewhere that you can play it, thus making it playable as opposed to unplayable? aka getting relief from your situation.
Also, don't forget, you pay for this with a penalty stroke.

The whole point of this thread was to point out a situation where I felt the options were inadequate!

Russman

billy3sheets wrote: »

The idea surely is to be able to move your ball somewhere that you can play it, thus making it playable as opposed to unplayable? aka getting relief from your situation.
Also, don't forget, you pay for this with a penalty stroke.

The whole point of this thread was to point out a situation where I felt the options were inadequate!

But you can do that, under the current options. Surely there couldn't be an option along the lines of "keep going to the side, not nearer the hole, until you find a lie you like...." ? Where would one draw the line as to what's relief and what's not ?

BigChap1759

billy3sheets wrote: »

The idea surely is to be able to move your ball somewhere that you can play it, thus making it playable as opposed to unplayable? aka getting relief from your situation.
Also, don't forget, you pay for this with a penalty stroke.

The whole point of this thread was to point out a situation where I felt the options were inadequate!

Yes but the option of replaying your shot from the same spot under penalty - and so it's playable from there!

If you can't get a shot at it either by taking the 2 club lengths option or the back in line with the pin option then I'd suggest you've hit it into a pretty terrible spot some distance away from the course?

billy3sheets

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Yes but the option of replaying your shot from the same spot under penalty - and so it's playable from there!

If you can't get a shot at it either by taking the 2 club lengths option or the back in line with the pin option then I'd suggest you've hit it into a pretty terrible spot some distance away from the course?

Russman wrote:

But you can do that, under the current options. Surely there couldn't be an option along the lines of "keep going to the side, not nearer the hole, until you find a lie you like...." ? Where would one draw the line as to what's relief and what's not ?

If you read my original post, the point I'm making is that the only viable option to make my ball playable again is a walk back to where I originally hit it from. This is unattractive both for me and for the golfers behind who may be waiting to play.

As for "keep going to the side, not nearer the hole, until you find a lie you like....", again I make the point that this costs you a penalty shot .

Miley Byrne

billy3sheets wrote: »

If you read my original post, the point I'm making is that the only viable option to make my ball playable again is a walk back to where I originally hit it from. This is unattractive both for me and for the golfers behind who may be waiting to play.

As for "keep going to the side, not nearer the hole, until you find a lie you like....", again I make the point that this costs you a penalty shot .

Think of it like this I suppose. If you hit a terrible shot into bad area, then you must take your medicine and re-load I'm afraid. Stroke and distance penalty for you.
On the other hand if you hit a shot that's not as bad but trundles into an unplayable lie then you can take a drop under penalty of one stroke (but are not penalised the distance too)

Woeful shot = stroke and distance
not so woeful shot = stroke (not distance)

Russman

billy3sheets wrote: »

If you read my original post, the point I'm making is that the only viable option to make my ball playable again is a walk back to where I originally hit it from. This is unattractive both for me and for the golfers behind who may be waiting to play.

As for "keep going to the side, not nearer the hole, until you find a lie you like....", again I make the point that this costs you a penalty shot .

But how far do you go or how do you define relief from your situation ?
One man's relief could be another man's "still not able to hit it". Much too grey IMO because its so hard to define what you're taking relief from. When you're in a situation where nearest point of relief does come into play, that point can easily be behind a tree or in a bush etc. and effectively unplayable. ie your nearest point of relief from a path might be behind a tree, but it'll cost you a shot to then get further relief from the tree.

As regards the walk back to where you played from, that's just part and parcel of the game and the player behind should be aware of that. Plus, how often does it happen, really ?

billy3sheets

Miley Byrne wrote: »

billy3sheets wrote: »

If you read my original post, the point I'm making is that the only viable option to make my ball playable again is a walk back to where I originally hit it from. This is unattractive both for me and for the golfers behind who may be waiting to play.

As for "keep going to the side, not nearer the hole, until you find a lie you like....", again I make the point that this costs you a penalty shot .

Think of it like this I suppose. If you hit a terrible shot into bad area, then you must take your medicine and re-load I'm afraid. Stroke and distance penalty for you.
On the other hand if you hit a shot that's not as bad but trundles into an unplayable lie then you can take a drop under penalty of one stroke (but are not penalised the distance too)

Woeful shot = stroke and distance
not so woeful shot = stroke (not distance)

Yeah but woeful shot into a hazard allows relief without distance penalty. (I know there's a retake option here too which would give distance penalty too). Only difference is that the boundaries of the hazard are marked versus bushes not marked.
As for how far you can move, it could be the same as for a staked tree - where you have an unimpeded swing?

HighLine

Russman wrote: »

Op, don't forget that when you take an unplayable and drop within 2 club lengths, the ball can travel a further 2 club lengths (not nearer the hole) from the spot it first hits the ground, so potentially you can get almost 4 club lengths.

Nearest point of relief doesn't come in the equation at all when taking an unplayable. You can choose where to drop with an unplayable (ie 2 club lengths, back in a straight line etc), nearest point of relief isn't open to debate, its a matter of fact.

I'm not sure why it is but the quoted bold section above is one of the most misunderstood rules in golf.

I would say that the vast majority of players I have encountered think that once it rolls outside 1 club length, then you pick it up an re-drop. It's black and white in the rules that it is 2 club lengths so can't understand why so many get confused about it.

ForeRight

I've a rules question. Happened me in a casual game couple of weeks ago and I was unsure of what to do.

Played a ball which rolled into a hazard. Got up and could play the ball from the hazard as it was dry. I tried to play it but hit a terrible shot and it travelled about 150 yards straight down the line of the hazard I was in. Imo the ball never crossed the line back into play and went into long stuff never to be seen again.

Do I drop in the hazard again under penalty from where I played my original hazard shot back 150yards?

newport2

ForeRight wrote: »

I've a rules question. Happened me in a casual game couple of weeks ago and I was unsure of what to do.

Played a ball which rolled into a hazard. Got up and could play the ball from the hazard as it was dry. I tried to play it but hit a terrible shot and it travelled about 150 yards straight down the line of the hazard I was in. Imo the ball never crossed the line back into play and went into long stuff never to be seen again.

Do I drop in the hazard again under penalty from where I played my original hazard shot back 150yards?

Yes, your last point of entry into the hazard still stands as your reference point while the ball is still in the hazard. You basically have the same options available to you that you did before you hit the shot that didn't get out. If it had crossed the line and rolled back in, you would have a new reference point and could work from there.

I had a situation like the OP the other day, I knocked it down off the tee into the worst rough you could imagine. I tried one shot to get out and ended up in an even worse lie. At this point I just picked up my ball, seeing zero prospect of getting out. There was no relief anywhere near to take a drop in.

Having hit my second shot, what can I do, can I return to the tee and hit my 4th or 5th? Having read the thread I'm guessing no I can't... I honestly would have taken a 20 or more if I tried to complete the hole.

Senna

Alivia Orange Wrinkle wrote: »

I had a situation like the OP the other day, I knocked it down off the tee into the worst rough you could imagine. I tried one shot to get out and ended up in an even worse lie. At this point I just picked up my ball, seeing zero prospect of getting out. There was no relief anywhere near to take a drop in.

Having hit my second shot, what can I do, can I return to the tee and hit my 4th or 5th? Having read the thread I'm guessing no I can't... I honestly would have taken a 20 or more if I tried to complete the hole.

Could have declared it unplayable and assuming it was a straight hole, head back to the front of the tee box, assuming there is somewhere there to play from

Milk_Tray

Just curious, if you hit a horrendous slice of the tee and it lads in a ditch at gorse, you cant play it, is it 2 club legths relief or in line with flag & Ball and as far back as you want? OR is point of entry and as far back no closer obviously? I thought point of entry and back was only if it went into water hazard but curious to know

HighLine

Milk_Tray wrote: »

Just curious, if you hit a horrendous slice of the tee and it lads in a ditch at gorse, you cant play it, is it 2 club legths relief or in line with flag & Ball and as far back as you want? OR is point of entry and as far back no closer obviously? I thought point of entry and back was only if it went into water hazard but curious to know

Rule 28 - Ball Unplayable
Definitions

All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section.

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a.

Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b.

Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c.

Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.

When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

So in my case (a few posts up), I should have found the ball and then just declared it unplayable and gone back to the tee and hit my third shot.

Golfgraffix

Alivia Orange Wrinkle wrote: »

So in my case (a few posts up), I should have found the ball and then just declared it unplayable and gone back to the tee and hit my third shot.

Or just go back and play a third.

Seve OB

Got these the other day. could be of some use to some of you guys. a handy little ready reckoner

FixdePitchmark

Posted a few years ago that rules are way too descriptive and complicated. Images , pictures work way better.
It didn't go down too well.

I think drop zones would help a lot of water situations.

The rules are so complicated and have changed so much - you come across people who speak with such authority - but it really is a strong held believe as opposed to reality.

When I'm trying to think of a water hazard I think of image above - but even people get this wrong. If you look at the equidistant aspect the circle. People just go the other side of the hazard.

RoadRunner

On the sheet Seve, fourth from bottom. Playing from green, ball hits flagstick or person attending it = two strokes or loss of hole matchplay.

So if my ball hits person attending flag while I putt then I get two stroke penalty? That seems strange, presume it assumes you've a caddy attending flagstick. What if it's your opponent and they don't move out of the way of the ball?

Agree entirely with the above. I would say most club golfers including myself have ether broken the rules or facilitated breaking the rules - entirely in good faith - at some point or other.

paulos53

RoadRunner wrote: »

On the sheet Seve, fourth from bottom. Playing from green, ball hits flagstick or person attending it = two strokes or loss of hole matchplay.

So if my ball hits person attending flag while I putt then I get two stroke penalty? That seems strange, presume it assumes you've a caddy attending flagstick. What if it's your opponent and they don't move out of the way of the ball?

If your opponent does it on purpose so that you get penalised then he is disqualified from the competition and you must play your putt again without penalty

If it wasn't intentional then you get the 2 shots or loss of hole penalty

Senna

paulos53 wrote: »

If your opponent does it on purpose so that you get penalised then he is disqualified from the competition and you must play your putt again without penalty

If it wasn't intentional then you get the 2 shots or loss of hole penalty

Some clumsy idiot could cost me two shots, I'd say it hardly ever happens and so they never bothered to change it. If it happened regularly, there would be war in some clubs over it.

tbayers

Seems a good place to bring it up. Was going well on Sunday but got to a Par 3 and hit my tee shot into a wet ish bunker. They were in play. I didn't get out with my first shot and landed right in under the lip. I tried in vain to hit the 2nd shot but it managed to come up and hit my clothes. Eventually got out on m third and got in for a 7. Could I have declared an unplayable after my first attempt, even though I was in a bunker?

Seve OB

Yes but your relief would have to be staying in the bunker

tbayers

Should have taken it so, thanks.

alxmorgan

Seve OB wrote: »

Yes but your relief would have to be staying in the bunker

You could also have returned to the tee and hit again

Seve OB

alxmorgan wrote: »

You could also have returned to the tee and hit again

nope he couldn't as he had alredy taken a shot in the bunker

alxmorgan

Seve OB wrote: »

nope he couldn't as he had alredy taken a shot in the bunker

True. I misread it