Explain Nitrates and Derogations to me

Buckmickley

During the Quota years,the policy on my farm Iike on a lot was,rear heifers,Cull cows for the smallest of reasons and replace
All the time Keeping within Quota with less but better cows

Since abolition,there has been no plan for any big ban rise in numbers but it's been happening due to a relaxing of the mad culling or selling of cows

Problem now of course is I'm approaching a nitrates problem

If my farm is capable of increasing production relative to the Quota years by say 30k gallons but officialdom says no,why shouldn't I sell my BPS entitlements (around 19K is what I'm paid in October and December in Total) and carry on?

What are the punishments that can be meated out if the Department have no BPS to sanction me on
Will I get jail for my sins of trying to feed the people in the towns?

What's involved in derogations? Can you do one every year and if so what's the point of all this
I've oceans of storage,there's no issue there

Thank you

Dwag

Buckmickley wrote: »

During the Quota years,the policy on my farm Iike on a lot was,rear heifers,Cull cows for the smallest of reasons and replace
All the time Keeping within Quota with less but better cows

Since abolition,there has been no plan for any big ban rise in numbers but it's been happening due to a relaxing of the mad culling or selling of cows

Problem now of course is I'm approaching a nitrates problem

If my farm is capable of increasing production relative to the Quota years by say 30k gallons but officialdom says no,why shouldn't I sell my BPS entitlements (around 19K is what I'm paid in October and December in Total) and carry on?

What are the punishments that can be meated out if the Department have no BPS to sanction me on
Will I get jail for my sins of trying to feed the people in the towns?

What's involved in derogations? Can you do one every year and if so what's the point of all this
I've oceans of storage,there's no issue there

Thank you

Excellent question.

If you need a short term solution then do as you say, sell the sfp and give the dept the finger...

Long term sustainability of that short term solution, imho, is poor.
The problem is political. Brussels will inevitably stick its nose into nitrate compliance and that's a more serious issue.
Irelands dairy produce supposedly makes up a large part of eu surplus production, so imposing stricter nitrates is a very easy solution...all done under an environmental flag of course.

Agri media in Continental Europe occasionally prints about dead zones around the Irish coast...


The best solution would be to follow the Brits out of Europe.

20silkcut

Nitrates is essentially a protectionist measure to stop guys from getting into big numbers. Especially in Ireland where the beef barons would have lobbied the sh1te out of the govt to force us into investing in concrete before we invest in cattle. It ensures that the hobby / part time farmer stays that way and it encourages the under utilisation of farm land.
Lets face it we have grass everywhere you could rear 100 cattle on the grass verges of a few miles of road.
Mention run off and slatted tanks and polluting ground water and it puts the notion of keeping a few cattle out of lads heads fairly quick.

20silkcut

Watch the funky farmer on YouTube milking 60 or 70 cows scrapes all the ****e up a ramp into a dung spreader not a sign of a slatted tank. Lot different over there. Britain not self sufficient in food production it seems to be a lot more relaxed. I presume cow sh1te in Britain is the same as cow sh1te in Ireland.

Timmaay

Buckmickley wrote: »

During the Quota years,the policy on my farm Iike on a lot was,rear heifers,Cull cows for the smallest of reasons and replace
All the time Keeping within Quota with less but better cows

Since abolition,there has been no plan for any big ban rise in numbers but it's been happening due to a relaxing of the mad culling or selling of cows

Problem now of course is I'm approaching a nitrates problem

If my farm is capable of increasing production relative to the Quota years by say 30k gallons but officialdom says no,why shouldn't I sell my BPS entitlements (around 19K is what I'm paid in October and December in Total) and carry on?

What are the punishments that can be meated out if the Department have no BPS to sanction me on
Will I get jail for my sins of trying to feed the people in the towns?

What's involved in derogations? Can you do one every year and if so what's the point of all this
I've oceans of storage,there's no issue there

Thank you

If you are not in derogation now and 170kg is the "limit" that you are worried about, then just go into derogation and your limit jumps to 250. Reasonably easy to get into, the key requirements are that you are fully compliant for winter accommodation/storage (which you said you are?), do out a fertilizer plan (paperwork exercise), and soil test that is less than 3yrs old. I let my Teagasc adviser do all this, costs me I think 300/year, I really should be doing it myself and saving that money, but one less job that I don't need! It has to be done by the 31st March each year, so 2018 is the earliest you will be able to get it for.

Just incase you are already in derogation and 250 is the limit your worried about, all I can say is consider culling all passagers early enough in the back end to help drop back your SR and try keep ya under it. You can also export slurry to help get you back under the 250.

Finally, all I'll say is 19k/year isn't to be sneezed at, for the sake of a small bit of paperwork, that extra 30kgls of milk you would be hoping to produce will leave you say 45k of extra milk sales?, take off your variable costs, and if you need extra labour etc, you could well end up with more work and less than the 19k bps in your pocket every year.

einn32

20silkcut wrote: »

Watch the funky farmer on YouTube milking 60 or 70 cows scrapes all the ****e up a ramp into a dung spreader not a sign of a slatted tank. Lot different over there. Britain not self sufficient in food production it seems to be a lot more relaxed. I presume cow sh1te in Britain is the same as cow sh1te in Ireland.

He's not in an NVZ. The UK actually put some work with soil data etc. into designating the zones so there are places totally free. As for the Irish it seems they just looked at the map and done the whole place with a marker. It's why you can cross from Limerick to Tipperary and gain a few weeks extra spreading time.

The funky farmer said he would be gone out of farming if he was in an Nvz!

einn32

Op it's an interesting question. I think a few guys on here are operating without entitlements. They couldn't reduce your payment if you have none but could you be done some other way?

If they fail to get derogations from the EU then a lot of guys could be hurt.

Nitrate is a form of input quotas

Dwag

Is the forum so politically correct now that nobody mentions the fact that you can buy a truck load of 'granlime' or 'dairynuts' etc instead of nitrates??

jaymla627

Dwag wrote: »

Is the forum so politically correct now that nobody mentions the fact that you can buy a truck load of 'granlime' or 'dairynuts' etc instead of nitrates??

I don't even bother trying to dress up my nitrates figures anymore up in the clouds here the past 5 years north of 300kgs and heading past 450 this year, no sfp so haven't been looked at yet, have a lot of ground obviously rented for silage etc but no maps with it

Dwag

jaymla627 wrote: »

I don't even bother trying to dress up my nitrates figures anymore up in the clouds here the past 5 years north of 300kgs and heading past 450 this year, no sfp so haven't been looked at yet, have a lot of ground obviously rented for silage etc but no maps with it

More luck to you Jay.
I'm handcuffed to 49 units an acre and there's absolutely no way around it.

From my experience here I'm fairly certain that things will change radically for you in the near future. I hope I'm wrong.

There's a huge ignorance about nitrates in Ireland. As in nitrate regulation that is.
I think it was here I read a comment about Spanish farmers that were restricted to 60 units per acre, that with so little rainfall what would they expect...

Jesus wept.

mahoney_j

jaymla627 wrote: »

I don't even bother trying to dress up my nitrates figures anymore up in the clouds here the past 5 years north of 300kgs and heading past 450 this year, no sfp so haven't been looked at yet, have a lot of ground obviously rented for silage etc but no maps with it

The problem that will/may arise there is that if there is even a hint of pollution of water etc locally the first port of. Call will be you and it will be left up to u to provide proof that it isn't through various environmental reports ,engineers etc ,won't be cheap

visatorro

Imv you'd be mad to sell basic payment. Whether it's right or wrong it's still money. I can see it getting fazed out anyway in years to come. Then farming in this country will be pointless anyway for 75% of farmers here anyway because we'll be importing stuff from Africa and the Americas.

Timmaay I wouldn't worry about paying 300 for 100 times return.

Thinking about it from a non farming point of view, do no extra work get paid. Extra work no basic payment. No guarantee of extra money from the work your doing. Hope that makes sense!

jaymla627

mahoney_j wrote: »

The problem that will/may arise there is that if there is even a hint of pollution of water etc locally the first port of. Call will be you and it will be left up to u to provide proof that it isn't through various environmental reports ,engineers etc ,won't be cheap

Have a good chunk of ground to come into the system that would see us under 250kgs/ha the plan was to go into a partnership with the ole chap for this year but with irelands derogation up for review in the summer I'm adopting a wait and see approcach, could easily be scraped to stop the Irish runaway milk train thats happening in the eu's eyes and would leave us in a nice hole financially with regards fines on fathers sfp our the other case of having to cut back cow numbers to remain compliant