European Opportunities?

Aswerty

Hey all,

So just coming to the end of what is going to be an unsuccessful start-up which I've been involved in for over a year and a half as "CTO" but that's a bit of a glorified title for a 2 man business. I'm hitting 30 at the end of this month and wouldn't mind seeing what life has to hold in Europe - mainly thinking of the likes of Germany/Switzerland/Austria/Netherlands. I'm just wondering does anybody have any idea as to what kind of opportunities exist for English only speakers? I know some multinationals can operate in English. And if their is opportunities, what are the channels for discovering them?

I'm fairly proficient across the web stack but back-end development is my bread and butter - mostly dotnet/C# although with some Node and front-end work I'm not unfamiliar with JavaScript. I do a fair bit of HTML/CSS and spend enough time working with RDBMS, be that database design or SQL scripts. I've been working as a developer for 6+ years and have an engineering degree and masters.

14ned

Aswerty wrote: »

So just coming to the end of what is going to be an unsuccessful start-up which I've been involved in for over a year and a half as "CTO" but that's a bit of a glorified title for a 2 man business. I'm hitting 30 at the end of this month and wouldn't mind seeing what life has to hold in Europe - mainly thinking of the likes of Germany/Switzerland/Austria/Netherlands. I'm just wondering does anybody have any idea as to what kind of opportunities exist for English only speakers? I know some multinationals can operate in English. And if their is opportunities, what are the channels for discovering them?

Lots of recruiters hire for open roles in the EU. Very easy to find them.

But be prepared for salary shock in Continental Europe. €40k is average for a senior software developer for > 10 years. €44k is considered very good, and is typically only paid if working in finance. Also, taxes are far higher than here in Ireland especially as on 40k you're considered wealthy.

Still, it's worth living and working in Continental Europe for a few years. I very much enjoyed my time there. Quality of life there is so much higher than here in Ireland. Far better food, higher quality almost everything from public transport to accommodation to schooling. Also, the public services are very comprehensive, and that low nominal salary will get offset by the employer paying for your daily commute, for your kids's schooling etc. Basically there are dozens of hidden forms of benefit in kind not obvious in the declared max salary.

Niall

Elessar

14ned wrote: »

But be prepared for salary shock in Continental Europe. €40k is average for a senior software developer for > 10 years. €44k is considered very good, and is typically only paid if working in finance. Also, taxes are far higher than here in Ireland especially as on 40k you're considered wealthy.

Hmm this is at odds with what some developer friends are telling me. Obviously there's no hard and fast rule but I have been told from some very senior devs abroad that they think Ireland has some of the lowest salaries in western Europe for developers. That's all anecdotal but a quick look at glassdoor gives averages of €60k+ for both Netherlands and Germany. I would wager most areas would have a lower cost of living aswell. A ruby dev I know (10+ years at it) recently told me he wouldn't work in Ireland as the offers for senior jobs were just too low, and he had lived here for a while. Again obviously each tech area differs in demand.

But to answer the OP, do some research into each country. Germany is thriving right now. It's something I would love to do but it's unlikely for me. Get on linkedIn and advertise that you're looking for work as I am seeing more and more EU jobs being posted. If you're willing to put in some effort to learn the language it's not too bad, a lot of multinationals need good English speakers. And a lot of people in Europe speak english anyway. Indeed.com has regional sites, get your CV on there. If you're young free and single, go for it. You could also consider contracting.

Aswerty

14ned wrote: »

Lots of recruiters hire for open roles in the EU. Very easy to find them.

But be prepared for salary shock in Continental Europe. €40k is average for a senior software developer for > 10 years. €44k is considered very good, and is typically only paid if working in finance. Also, taxes are far higher than here in Ireland especially as on 40k you're considered wealthy.

Still, it's worth living and working in Continental Europe for a few years. I very much enjoyed my time there. Quality of life there is so much higher than here in Ireland. Far better food, higher quality almost everything from public transport to accommodation to schooling. Also, the public services are very comprehensive, and that low nominal salary will get offset by the employer paying for your daily commute, for your kids's schooling etc. Basically there are dozens of hidden forms of benefit in kind not obvious in the declared max salary.

Niall

Just at the moment I wouldn't be too fussy about the salary side of things. It's more for a bit of experience beyond our wee island - I didn't really do the travel thing in my early twenties so it's about time to head abroad. But €40k seems crazy low considering their tax rates. I would've been targeting €50k+ in Cork (current location) or €60k+ in Dublin if I was planning to stay home.

I kind of assumed that recruiters would probably be the way to go, though I do hate dealing with them. I'm just getting a lay of the land, so it's good to get some perspective on things.

Elessar wrote:

But to answer the OP, do some research into each country. Germany is thriving right now. It's something I would love to do but it's unlikely for me. Get on linkedIn and advertise that you're looking for work as I am seeing more and more EU jobs being posted. If you're willing to put in some effort to learn the language it's not too bad, a lot of multinationals need good English speakers. And a lot of people in Europe speak english anyway. Indeed.com has regional sites, get your CV on there. If you're young free and single, go for it. You could also consider contracting.

Yeah, young, free and single at the moment though languages (the IRL ones) aren't my strong point. I might try some German on Duolingo since it covers you for the largest part of central Europe.

I hadn't really thought of LinkedIn though I do have an established profile so probably time to revisit it. Regional versions of Indeed seems like a smart option as well.

14ned

Elessar wrote: »

Hmm this is at odds with what some developer friends are telling me. Obviously there's no hard and fast rule but I have been told from some very senior devs abroad that they think Ireland has some of the lowest salaries in western Europe for developers. That's all anecdotal but a quick look at glassdoor gives averages of €60k+ for both Netherlands and Germany. I would wager most areas would have a lower cost of living aswell. A ruby dev I know (10+ years at it) recently told me he wouldn't work in Ireland as the offers for senior jobs were just too low, and he had lived here for a while. Again obviously each tech area differs in demand.

I just did a quick search there myself, and I confirm your observation, though the average is maybe a touch under 60k rather than over, though depending on city. I also did a quick check to make sure my memory was right (last time I interviewed for a role in Europe in Amsterdam was 2012/2013) and I am. It looks like senior devs have seen hefty pay increases in Continental Europe last four years, approx 7% per annum. That should do wonders to stem the brain drain from Europe to the US, it was getting daft there for a bit at the pay disparity.

Niall

14ned

Aswerty wrote: »

Just at the moment I wouldn't be too fussy about the salary side of things. It's more for a bit of experience beyond our wee island - I didn't really do the travel thing in my early twenties so it's about time to head abroad. But €40k seems crazy low considering their tax rates. I would've been targeting €50k+ in Cork (current location) or €60k+ in Dublin if I was planning to stay home.

It looks like senior devs have seen hefty pay increases in recent years, so my info is stale. Looks like 55k is entirely achieveable now, but do be aware that taxation is eye watering over there. Lots of taxable deductions though, and benefits in kind. Don't worry, you won't be poor by any means, it's all relative to local pay anyway.

I kind of assumed that recruiters would probably be the way to go, though I do hate dealing with them. I'm just getting a lay of the land, so it's good to get some perspective on things.

I get approached to fill roles in Europe approx three or four times per month. Usually Belfast, London, Germany, Holland and Belgium in that order. Very occasionally France.

They are almost always six month roles with an option to go permanent so they can kick you back if you don't work out for them. They come with a complete relocation package after six months, and note that relocation expenses tend to be tax deductible including having to buy a new car etc.

Yeah, young, free and single at the moment though languages (the IRL ones) aren't my strong point. I might try some German on Duolingo since it covers you for the largest part of central Europe.

I moved to Spain in 2000 not speaking a word. Sunshine every day, 30 hour work week with a bottle of wine at lunch each at work, clubbing and drinking on the street till 8am twice a week, superb food, and I was exceptionally wealthy compared to the locals to the point of embarrassment.

That Spain doesn't exist any more, but boy was it fun while it lasted. Imagine dancing on the edge of a cliff at a rave as the sun comes up and it's warm, warm warm, lots of spanish girls in bikinis dancing. And then doing that again next week. Great times.

Niall

Aswerty

Just to put a cap on this...

I ended up getting an offer in Amsterdam, in the €60k region, as a senior C# developer. So I'm moving over next Monday. I wanted to push the salary a bit more but had no luck - but in the Netherlands they have a 30% rule which gives foreigners who move over (the rule needs to be written into your contract) a certain amount of your salary tax free. The rule seems somewhat convoluted so I'm yet to fully crunch the numbers on it.

Stack Overflow ended up being my jobs-board of choice - their filter by "relocation package" is a good way to find companies who are looking for talent from further afield.

14ned

Aswerty wrote: »

Just to put a cap on this...

I ended up getting an offer in Amsterdam, in the €60k region, as a senior C# developer. So I'm moving over next Monday. I wanted to push the salary a bit more but had no luck - but in the Netherlands they have a 30% rule which gives foreigners who move over (the rule needs to be written into your contract) a certain amount of your salary tax free. The rule seems somewhat convoluted so I'm yet to fully crunch the numbers on it.

Stack Overflow ended up being my jobs-board of choice - their filter by "relocation package" is a good way to find companies who are looking for talent from further afield.

Congrats on the new role! I very much like Amsterdam, I have visited well over thirty times in my life, though not in recent years. There is also lots more within a short train ride away, I've spent a lot of time in Belgium too. I definitely recommend living and working in a non-Anglo-Saxon country before you need to settle down somewhere for children. Gives you lots of new perspective which will stand to you in years to come. Enjoy!

Niall

off.the.walls

I recently moved to Germany (2.5 years) in coding and around the 50k mark. Don't know where the other figures are coming from, you will however be shafted on tax! Theres so many taxes + health insurance is mandatory in other eu countries.

Aswerty

off.the.walls wrote: »

I recently moved to Germany (2.5 years) in coding and around the 50k mark. Don't know where the other figures are coming from, you will however be shafted on tax! Theres so many taxes + health insurance is mandatory in other eu countries.

The Netherlands - from what I can see - seems a bit more like the UK than Germany for taxation. For a 60k salary you'd be looking at an effective tax rate of 35% whereas in Germany it's more like 45%. And then if you get on the 30% rule in the Netherlands it's quite a bit better than the aforementioned 35%. For an equivalent salary in Sterling (e.g. £55k) it looks like tax in the UK would be just shy of 30% And in Ireland effective tax at 60k would be just above 30%. This is all from the perspective of someone single with no kids - I'm sure Germany gets more attractive when you look at services provided by the government.

While mandatory healthcare is a cost - it's probably something I'd be glad to be forced to pay since I can be a bit miserly when it comes to looking after myself.

John_Mc

I'm self employed and pay over €1000 a year on my premium in Ireland and I get S.F.A for it in a completely dysfunctional health system where hundreds are on trolleys around the country every day. I'm pretty sure that's not the case in the Netherlands or Germany.

Out of interest, how much is the health insurance in Germany?

off.the.walls

John_Mc wrote: »

I'm self employed and pay over €1000 a year on my premium in Ireland and I get S.F.A for it in a completely dysfunctional health system where hundreds are on trolleys around the country every day. I'm pretty sure that's not the case in the Netherlands or Germany.

Out of interest, how much is the health insurance in Germany?

14.4% of your salary

John_Mc

off.the.walls wrote: »

14.4% of your salary

Wow :eek:

14ned

Aswerty wrote: »

For an equivalent salary in Sterling (e.g. £55k) it looks like tax in the UK would be just shy of 30% And in Ireland effective tax at 60k would be just above 30%.

The UK has lots of hidden taxes which other countries don't have. If you bundle in the hefty council tax and the unavoidable cost of a travel pass in the South East, you should expect to lose nearly half your gross income in direct and indirect taxation. So not much different from Continental Europe in fact, though it does depend a lot on where you live in the UK, central Wales or Scotland would be a lot cheaper.

Niall

14ned

off.the.walls wrote: »

14.4% of your salary

Ireland is a bit of an outlier with health. We have acquired some of the worst bits of the US health system unfortunately.

We spend about as much as a percentage of GDP at the Netherlands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita). But we spend the most out of general taxation of any country in the OECD apart from the US (http://www.finfacts.ie/Irish_finance_news/articleDetail.php?Ireland-second-highest-OECD-health-spending-poorest-outcomes-506) because like in the US, the politicians don't like to charge people directly for health, so they pay it out of income tax + VAT instead combined with private health insurance.

About one fifth of your tax bill goes on health in fact, so maybe 7% of an average salary. Private health insurance makes up the rest. Given about the same money per person goes into health as the Netherlands, the main difference is probably not general incompetence of the HSE, but rather our comparative lack of funding elderly care and mental health and other preventative health etc. That causes the elderly to get chronically sick frequently and end up in expensive hospital, clogging up A&E.

Ireland is almost exactly mid-tier in the OECD for health outcomes. Our big failing is preventative health care, we do little to stop chronic health issues becoming acute across the board. That's inefficient: the UK achieves the same mid-tier health outcomes as Ireland but with 20% less spent per person.

All that said, Irish society wouldn't much like the nagging and nannying preventative health systems common in Europe. Most ill health is caused by lifestyle. Having people constantly hassle you and fine you for your lifestyle would not be popular here.

Niall

Off topic I know, but for many European countries you pay a lot in income tax, but then thats it. When I was abroad(south of Prague), I paid income tax and a City tax(because I lived in a city) and health insurance, but after that, the rest of my money really was my money. The city tax covered waste collection, TV license, dog license, and all the other stealth taxes we have here. 80% of every pint I drank wasn't tax, it was just the price of the product, which is why it was about a euro to 1.20 per pint, in a pub and about 40c for a bottle of beer.

OP, don't worry too much about the language. Some Dutch and Germans speak better English than some Irish people, and the average level of English is generally pretty good.