11 months old Cavalier King Charles Spaniel - Neuter

BrookieD

Charlie is about to go under the knife for the snip. In general he is a very well behaved fella. He is slowly getting used to walking with me off lead in a area safe for dogs in Ashbourne. LOVES playing fetch with a ball, When walking marks everywhere (well tries to...) LOVES to see new dogs around but never barks at them and is very social.

HE can get way over excited when i get home, some days he is grand others he is all over me. Has a weird groaning thing while up with paws around my neck like cuddling me and has a cross between a whimper and groan.. real funny but getting concerned he may be getting a bit toooo excited (researching this)

We dont want pups and thinking that if we neuter that he may calm a little more when walking and not be so pushed to find a dog in heat which leads to better off lead walking. random humping on anything (distraction is a great tool)

If anyone has a "Charlie" and has gone through neuter process please leave feedback and advice post op.

Also I am looking into a Kennel for the garden, now the nicer weather is here we want to be able to leave him in the garden if we nip out, we can leave him in the kitchen with open crate and food for a few hours at a time and he is 100% fine and used to this but i want a kennel with a catflap and not a door so if it rains or colder he is ok and warm with a closed door as it were.

any thoughts on above?

Cheers and sorry for ramble.

Ms Doubtfire1

 The neutering will definitely calm him down. Mind you, he's also a teenager and hormones are all over the place. Wouldn't be concerned about the groaning, my lurcher does that same sound when i scratch his ears and he's neutered.
It will take some time for the effects of neutering to set in but you'll see it after +/- 4 weeks I'd say. re kennel in the garden? wouldn't recommend it. too many small dogs are getting stolen out of their kennels within the blink of an eye.

Knine

I'm going suggest leaving him be especially if you are responsible then he won't be out wandering. Not every male dog is off after bitches. My male dogs are very well behaved & have much more get up & go then our neutered dog. Neutering will make his lovely silky coat wooly & difficult to groom. Our neutered terrier has terrible joint issues & is extremely lazy compared to the entire males. He is also heavier with not so much muscle tone. Make sure you research both the pros & cons of neutering!

What you are dealing with at the moment is normal teenage stuff.

BrookieD

@Ms Doubtfire1 - Thanks for feedback - re kennel and dog being nicked we would be ok here as the back garden is extremly well protected. with no access.

Knine - Thanks for th feedback - good points, i know in time he will settle more in time - he is by no means a problem dog, spirited yes but very well behaved - We are very careful with him and dont ever let him out for a wonder on his own. Charlie is great but dumb as a truck on road sense.

adelcrowsmel

I have a "Charlie" but call him "Darcy". Very similar to you, he is currently 11 months old and will turn 1 in June. He is also a CKCS, a black and tan one. He is as mad as a hatter although has calmed down alot the last few months, very affectionate and very friendly to everyone he meets whether it be people or dogs!!

He also marks everywhere outside and humps anything in sight - his poor older brother who is 8 gets the brunt of it but he is easily distracted with a toy and stops!! He also has a similar little groan and almost a growl-like noise when he snuggles into you - he's definitely not growling....it's just a little mannerism with him - I have also noticed him making this noise when he is trying to settle to sleep. He also has the funniest little habit of nibbling your eyebrows when he is up in your arms and sometimes my hair - I've never had a dog do this before!!

I have decided for now not to neuter anyway as I have had no problems with him roaming for females as he can't - when out he is in a fully enclosed garden and he is never really lose where he could get away, although I haven't tried him off lead on the beach yet so that he could run free with his very well behaved brother - he's still on a long lead there. His older brother Charlie who's a ruby CKCS was neutered and had no problems with him after the op - he was back to himself within a day or 2 - it was just a matter of keeping him away from the stitches until he healed so a collar was needed, used one of the soft collars at the time.

Personally I know my two wouldn't be happy to be left outside for any length of time - while they enjoy roaming in and out of the house on the days when the weather is good they always want to be inside to settle for a snooze and it's what they are used to now.

Do you mind me asking where in Ashbourne there is for off lead walking that's safe and they can't get out/away - I'm near enough and would love somewhere like this for training better recall with Darcy!!

BrookieD

@adelcroesmel - Thanks sent a PM - your CKCS sounds exactly like mine. might rethink the kennel as a option for longer term leaving but as a place to go on a sunny day for shade etc i would like it. Although he is free to wonder in and out the house.

The one thing i noted about having a dog is the amount of walking. I certainly trimmed up in the last few months, i find as he gets older the walks are longer but as he carries energy into the later evening i walk him to calm him and dispense of this before bed.

He is a funny little bugger though.

Bunnyslippers

I have a Charlie - and he is called that! - he's a xbred cav x jack russell rescue though!:D He's had his nuts off like all of our male dogs we have or have ever had and he's no different to when he had them i.e. same energy levels/coat/great muscle tone etc, he's very very fit and spends most of the day on the go and does a good couple of hours up the mountains a day and round the fields too and loves to swim. So neutering had no effect on him at all, and our neutered spaniel was done at some point in his life before he was dumped at Tesco, where we found him, and even though he's an older dog he's still full of beans and always on the go too! Our Ovcharka was done too at a year and a half and he's no different either.
So neutering is something I would always recommend then there is never any issue breeding wise or any hassle having to be extra vigilant, also means they wont get testicular cancer, and I've found it does calm them down a bit in some ways more behaviourally i.e. stops humping etc - not energy wise though!!:D

BrookieD

Mrs Brookied took Charlie to a groomers yesterday in Ashbourne and got into a conversation about neutering and was given a really hard time by the groomer. All on why she 100% should cancel the procedure and he is too young and under developed etc... when she went back to pick him up she jumped on her again "So did you cancel yet, you should cancel, dont do it...!" to be honest i was very unhappy as he is there for a trim not a lecture on when we do or dont do.

tempted to bloody complain to the store to be honest

DBB

The groomer had no bloody business soapboxing like that... It drives me up the wall when people pretty much bully owners on what they should or shouldn't do on the neutering front, it's so unfair.
There are pros and cons on both sides, and owners need to make themselves aware of these so that, with consultation with their vet (as opposed to via a haranguing by a groomer), they can make an informed decision whether to neuter, whether to neuter their younger-than-1 dog, or whether to neuter at all.

BrookieD

SO charlie back from the vets, Cone on and very tired, had a lite bite to eat and water and now resting, no toileting yet so will see how he is overnight and hopefully will be brighter in the morning.

boomerang

I'll always be pro-castration, the only question being, when to do it. Guess my views are somewhat skewed by working in a vets but I see so many serious, painful and tragic consequences of *not* neutering your male dog. Not just testicular cancer, but prostatitis and horrible peri-anal tumours. Plus the results of dog fights and RTAs chasing bitches in heat.

For pet owners, I honestly don't think coat quality should come into it. I respect Knine but suggesting a Cavalier's coat will be much harder to groom post-neutering is a bit of an over-statement.

Knine

boomerang wrote: »

For pet owners, I honestly don't think coat quality should come into it. I respect Knine but suggesting a Cavalier's coat will be much harder to groom post-neutering is a bit of an over-statement.

How many dogs do you groom? Believe me there is a big difference! Most CKCs that are neutered are shaved. No fights here, no chasing bitches or marking. Just well trained dogs. They all live long lives with no joint issues, no cancers etc. I have a lot of dogs!

omerin

I had a terrier and I got him neutered and it's something I regret. Went ahead on the premise that is would quieten him, it didn't (but he wasn't that loud to begin with, just the postman ), to reduce the amount he marks, it didn't. It did reduce the risks of certain cancers and from that point of view it succeeded.
It also unfortunately took away some of his soul and what makes a dog a dog and this is why I regret it, became docile and this was probably picked up by the majority of dogs that crossed his path.

Knine

omerin wrote: »

I had a terrier and I got him neutered and it's something I regret. Went ahead on the premise that is would quieten him, it didn't (but he wasn't that loud to begin with, just the postman ), to reduce the amount he marks, it didn't. It did reduce the risks of certain cancers and from that point of view it succeeded.
It also unfortunately took away some of his soul and what makes a dog a dog and this is why I regret it, became docile and this was probably picked up by the majority of dogs that crossed his path.

I regret getting our Jack Russell done too. He is the same, too quiet plus major joint issues. I have a Border bitch done & her coat is ruined. Not near as agile or as fast as the entire bitches. As for cancers unfortunately one of my breeds is more likely to die from bone cancers if neutered.

I'm sure many pet owners won't mind but it is important people know the pros & cons so they can make an informed decision. RTA's are not caused by entire dogs but generally irresponsible dog owners allowing dogs to wander.

boomerang

I don't think pet owners should be concerned by coat quality. Yes certainly some types of coat can lose some of their lustre, but it's more important to spay/neuter. With all the dogs coming in to our vet practice the majority are neutered and I don't see coat problems. Nor are any of the neutered CKCs closely shaven.

How can a terrier be too quiet? For my sake, they can't be quiet enough!

Have done agility with my BC but not competitively. Surprised there would be any difference between spayed bitches and not. There's hardly any unspayed bitches doing agility, surely?

Also people can have un-realistic expectations about castration, thinking it will quieten down a boisterous, unruly dog. It doesn't! Nor does it stop marking in all cases, especially if the behaviour is already well-established.

Cherry Blossom

I had to neuter my Sheltie as his testicles were undescended. His coat is now wooly and matts easily. Its an absolute nightmare when he blows his coat in spring.

Knine

Lots of people say they don't see a difference - until you see 2 standing next to each other. Many of my friends are dog groomers. My dogs go to grooming seminars for students to do exams. They never ever take the spayed dogs. Their coats are not suitable. It is common knowledge that it affects the coat.

Agility dogs that are for competiton are kept very fit so less of a difference. I have done a lot of agility training. I don't have time to compete. My entire bitches are a lot more agile.

I must post some photos of the difference in coats of some of my own when I get the chance.

Knine

Cherry Blossom wrote: »

I had to neuter my Sheltie as his testicles were undescended. His coat is now wooly and matts easily. Its an absolute nightmare when he blows his coat in spring.

My friends Rough Collie Bitch is the same. She regrets getting it done for that reason. Retrievers, collies & spaniels tend to go wooly. Terriers tend to lose their undercoat & become impossible to strip.

Cherry Blossom

If I had it to do over I'd still neuter him. The risk of his testes turning cancerous was too great. Id not neuter a male again though unless absolutely necessary.

Choc Chip

Theoretically, i wouldnt neuter, at least until fully developed. However, that's in my own situation if i could guarantee that my dog wouldn't get to another dog.

Being honest though, how many pet owners really have 100% recall... or have a garden 100% escape proof. Its not the case in this forum, but i do believe that the vast majority of pet owners just want an easy life, and for these neutering is more responsible and ensures that their dog doesn't contribute to the huge overpopulation of dogs in Irish pounds.

Thousands of people each year buy pups from puppy farms. If they can't be trusted to put in the research to avoid a puppy farm, how can you trust them to keep an entire dog?

So for me, I'll advise anyone who asks me that they should neuter their dog. And if they have done the work and the research to argue why to delay or not to neuter, that's fine. Don't. But i think that most people should neuter. Because based on the people i met in real life, most people want an easy life and aren't willing or able to responsibly monitor an entire dog or bitch.

(Or I'm overly cynical)

kylith

Honestly, the coat going a bit wooly is small beer compared to the number of accidental litters that wind up in rescues. I wonder how many of those people refuse to neuter because it would 'ruin the coat'.

I think that, unless the owner is determined to breed, dogs should be neutered.

Knine

kylith wrote: »

Honestly, the coat going a bit wooly is small beer compared to the number of accidental litters that wind up in rescues. I wonder how many of those people refuse to neuter because it would 'ruin the coat'.

I think that, unless the owner is determined to breed, dogs should be neutered.

Me & none of mine have any accidental litters or end up rescue. I like a nice coat & I can't go anywhere with my dogs without people noticing them. My entire dogs look a lot better & are definitely more fit for function when not altered.

adelcrowsmel

How's Charlie doing now BrookieD?

BrookieD

adelcrowsmel wrote: »

How's Charlie doing now BrookieD?

Hi All -
Charlie has bounced back great - effects of the op are gone, back to his normal self - We have a follow up visit this evening with him and so do not see anything for concern here. Energy wise pretty much back to normal, he has already shown signs of crouching when peeing (could be due to the incision area being tight) and only leg lifting 50% of the time and also not stopping as much on the few light walks he has had.

aside from the cone and looking at the incision site you would be hard pressed to tell he was at the vets.

He is crying at the door ready for a walk but we are being careful not to overdo anything and aggravate the incision area.

Seen the comments on this thread, all very interesting and will be interested to see any difference mid to long term in Charlie. Coat being thicker, not bothered with to be honest. he will be groomed regular enough to keep in check and we groom /brush at home.

While he is still learning i could not say he would not recall 100% of the time if/when ever off lead which is rare. So for us this was an option i am happy with. appreciate others have a different opinion but happy that no one is forcing there opinion on anyone else on this thread at least.

tk123

kylith wrote: »

Honestly, the coat going a bit wooly is small beer compared to the number of accidental litters that wind up in rescues. I wonder how many of those people refuse to neuter because it would 'ruin the coat'.

I think that, unless the owner is determined to breed, dogs should be neutered.

Your assuming that every intact dog is let roam and breed though which isn't the case. There are responsible owners out there who are able to train and keep their dogs under control. My neutered male would run after a bitch in heat if he was given the chance - he isn't though. He does have behavioural and medical issues that neutering played a part in and I regret not doing my own research instead of listing to an expert vet nurse soapboxing in puppy class telling us all to spay and neuter at 6 months. :mad:
I'll never neuter a male dog again - it's just not worth the risk for me.

kylith

tk123 wrote: »

Your assuming that every intact dog is let roam and breed though which isn't the case. There are responsible owners out there who are able to train and keep their dogs under control. My neutered male would run after a bitch in heat if he was given the chance - he isn't though. He does have behavioural and medical issues that neutering played a part in and I regret not doing my own research instead of listing to an expert vet nurse soapboxing in puppy class telling us all to spay and neuter at 6 months. :mad:
I'll never neuter a male dog again - it's just not worth the risk for me.

Yes, there are lots and lots of responsible owners, but there are also owners with gaps in the fence, and lots of dogs that will jump or climb or dig or, as I was told by someone on another forum, go through a window to get at a bitch in heat. I know of, as I'm sure some of you will have encountered yourselves, litters fathered through fences.

To say that there are heaps of accidental litters leading to lots and lots of dumped puppies is not to deny that there are many people out there with entire dogs who look after them well and make sure that they don't get out, or are off lead.

My point is that for someone who just wants a pet dog and who has no intention of breeding the fact that the coat might not be totally breed spec is not really a reason to not neuter.

Dubl07

I didn't want to spay my dog but didn't want to risk puppies either, so I researched and decided to go for an ovary sparing spay. Her hormones are intact, she's had two heats since the surgery but she can't have pups.

boomerang

Dubl07 wrote: »

I decided to go for an ovary sparing spay.

Mammary cancer would be a big concern for me. Most common cancer in "intact" bitches.

tk123

boomerang wrote: »

Mammary cancer would be a big concern for me. Most common cancer in "intact" bitches.

vs hidden bone cancer in dogs spayed/neutered too early? I know what I'd rather deal with.

mymo

I had to get my bitch neutered at 5.5 months due to early heat and hormone problem, her coat is Woolly, very thick, but easy maintain as we have cuddles and brushing on the sofa most evenings. I keep her coat clipped fairly short for her own comfort, she's very low to the ground and hates being wet, and gets quite warm in summer, so clipping short(not shaving) is more comfortable.

My male dog I wasn't going to neuter, but he was surrounded by entire bitches in the area we lived, he was trying to hump and getting quite stressed, and a couple of times he tried to get over our back wall hurting himself in the process. So at almost 4 years old I got him done, apart from reaction to anaesthetic and a bleed after surgery, he actually improved a lot after a few months. The humping stopped, he was calmer (he's always and still is quite bouncy and hyper, but the whinging and trying to escape stopped) and honestly I'm glad I did it. His coat is actually thinner if anything and easier to manage, which I wasn't expecting due to my bitch getting woolly.
He didn't gain weight, she did a little but she's always been a pig since a puppy, I just watch her food.
Both still very playful and are often mistaken for young dogs, people are surprised when I tell them they are 8&9, although if it's raining my little bitch walks so slowly and dejected looking people think she's a pensioner.

I think in future I'll wait until dogs are at least 2 and think it through depending on the dog and situation.

boomerang

tk123 wrote: »

vs hidden bone cancer in dogs spayed/neutered too early? I know what I'd rather deal with.

We don't know that definitively. The studies are generally small and in some instances only involve one breed. I'm open to the idea, but yes, mammary cancer is a greater concern. It is the single biggest neoplasia in intact bitches.

Have never come across a case of osteosarcoma in practice. Mammary cancers on the otherhand are sadly two a penny.

borderlinemeath

It's a tough call, with pros and cons on both sides.

I have a VERY woolly setter, who had mange when he was found, so his hair fell out in clumps. He was neutered when his hair was growing back and the result is that he looks like a woolly mammoth, with clumps of woollyness, obviously where his bald patches were.

Obviously large and giant breeds should be left as long as possible before getting the snip, and if you want to keep your dog/s intact and don't have issues in a multi dog household or with escapology or excessive marking then that's ok.

But I see and hear so many stupid, stupid people who let their dogs breed for no reason other than lazyness and selfishness. Only the other day I was in my local agri store getting dog food and there was a man there admiring one of my dogs that I had with me. His MALTESE had just had his SPRINGER SPANIELS pups:eek::eek:. Another eejit I met on the beach a few weeks back had let his 9yr old Husky (who had recently had a cancerous tumour removed) mate with his 18 month old husky who had 5 pups. It wasn't meant to happen when she was so young, but he didn't know if the older dogs cancer would come back before her next heat:mad:

Knine

boomerang wrote: »

We don't know that definitively. The studies are generally small and in some instances only involve one breed. I'm open to the idea, but yes, mammary cancer is a greater concern. It is the single biggest neoplasia in intact bitches.

Have never come across a case of osteosarcoma in practice. Mammary cancers on the otherhand are sadly two a penny.

You are very lucky so. Unfortunately I have seen plenty of cases of bone cancers. My friends dog is gone a few weeks now. PTS 3 weeks after diagnosis. Not even 2 years of age. Mammary cancers have never occurred in any of my entire bitches & it generally happens to older bitches. You can spot it a mile off. Bitches make a full recovery with an obsevant owner, same with Testicular Cancer which none of my males have gotten either.

I know which cancer I'd prefer to deal with. I can also spot a spayed, neutered dog before checking. They look different to entire dogs.

Vets/nurses will always be pushing spay/neuter & in some cases, retained testicles, rescue dogs etc it is a good idea. However owners should know all the pros & cons.

boomerang

But how many average owners spot a change in their dog's mammary glands? When they do, the poor dog needs an invasive mammary strip, which is far more of an ordeal to the dog than a spay. And the mammary strip is not curative depending on when the changes are found; you know this cancer often spreads to the lungs and then it's game over. Just because you haven't experienced it in your bitches does not change the fact that it's very common.

Our childhood Golden Retriever died of mammary cancer.

Our entire dog of many years ago suffered testicular cancer.



All of this to ensure owners reading this thread know all the pros and cons.

Knine

boomerang wrote: »

But how many average owners spot a change in their dog's mammary glands? When they do, the poor dog needs an invasive mammary strip, which is far more of an ordeal to the dog than a spay. And the mammary strip is not curative depending on when the changes are found; you know this cancer often spreads to the lungs and then it's game over. Just because you haven't experienced it in your bitches does not change the fact that it's very common.

Our childhood Golden Retriever died of mammary cancer.

Our entire dog of many years ago suffered testicular cancer.



All of this to ensure owners reading this thread know all the pros and cons.

I'm in the dog show game.......... I live, eat & sleep dogs. So all my friends also involved keep many dogs - generally all entire. Strangely enough none of them have experienced it either. That is a huge amount of dogs. It is not near as common as vets/nurses would have you believe.

Bone cancers in large breeds? When do you think the changes are seen?

I check my own dogs for lumps, bumps etc very regularly. It is part of being a responsible owner.

boomerang

Precisely. You're not the "average" owner. Wish I'd known more when our childhood dogs had reproductive cancer.

And I'm not exaggerating the number of cases of mammary cancer that we see. I'd posit that you and your friends have been equally lucky.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

tk123

boomerang wrote: »

But how many average owners spot a change in their dog's mammary glands?

My friends dog had a mammary lump biopsied just this week - all good thank god. I'd call her an average owner - feeds crappy Hills food that doesn't suit her, got the dog spayed way too early, gives unnecessary vaccinations, wormers and flea treatments without question etc etc

Knine

boomerang wrote: »

Precisely. You're not the "average" owner. Wish I'd known more when our childhood dogs had reproductive cancer.

And I'm not exaggerating the number of cases of mammary cancer that we see. I'd posit that you and your friends have been equally lucky.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I like to think I am just a normal dog owner. I doubt we are all very lucky. I just feel that spaying & neutering is the vets bread & butter. Same with vaccinations. Since due to my hobby you would imagine I would see/hear of much more cases because less dogs are spayed/ neutered.

boomerang

It doesn't influence my opinion. I would have been pro-spay/neuter long before qualifying as a VN.

ETA: Also strongly pro-vaccination so I think we should leave it at that.

Achasanai

What's an 'entire' dog?

Knine

Achasanai wrote: »

What's an 'entire' dog?

A dog who is not neutered or spayed.

BrookieD

OK so all done, cone off, Charlie getting used to nothing on his neck/head again, mad rubbing on the sofa at the min??? much more calm when out walking and not interested in marking anywhere near as much.

Not related (i think) but for owners of dogs less than a year old, are your dogs awake earlier due to the early mornings? Charlie is hearing more from about 5am and barking mad to get into the garden, has a rummage for 2 mins then a wee and back to bed.... not so bad as i am up at 5 anyway but he normally sleeps to 8/9am. Its his first summer so plenty of learning all round me thinks.

adelcrowsmel

Great to hear he is doing so well!! Yes, my dogs wake earlier also - I have gotten into the habit over the years to pull blinds in the room that they sleep in and also have a radio on with them and that has helped.

mymo

One of mine sleeps until 5 mins after I hit snooze on alarm, before it goes off again he wants to get up.
The other varies but often earlier in summer, I have cats too and if weather is bad they and the small dog won't get up at all.