Alitalia to Enter Bankruptcy

Graham

After workers rejected a €2billion survival plan it looks like Alitalia will formally request starting bankruptcy proceedings.

All flights operating as scheduled (for now).

Some mess of an airline, particularly considering the vast amounts of state funding that's been poured into it over the last decade.

robyntmorton

<sarcasm>Cue Ryanair stepping in with an offer to fly the Pope in 3... 2... 1...</sarcasm>

<serious>It would be sad to see Alitalia disappear though. It has a rich history, and while it has gone through so many restructuring moves, it has kept flying. We have to hope that something can be done this time too.</serious>

Tenger

While I agree with the sentiment I think there has to come a time when you have to cry "halt".
Any partial restructuring will only postpone the end for another 4-5 years.
There has already been huge change in the last 10 years but even with the Ethiad ownership (in all but name) it still needs more.

Locker10a

Its such a Pity that Alitalia didn't manage to reform like its peer airlines over the past 15-20 years. Italy is a airline/tourism goldmine, and has been a highly successful market for many other airlines, yet not for Italys home airline. Italian politics have had a lot of influence here and the airline has been used to play politics a lot over the years.

robyntmorton

Locker10a wrote: »

Italian politics have had a lot of influence here and the airline has been used to play politics a lot over the years.

Herein lies the problem. As long as it is a political football, it will be a problem. It should be let go to an organisation that will run it as a profit making venture, telling the politicians to f*ck off.

Cessna_Pilot

Alitalia's loss will be Ryanair and co's gain. Pardon the pun

BlinkingLights

It's a shame to see an old flag carrier like that go down, but there's precedence for airlines like this going to the wall and being resurrected in some shape or form: Swiss and Sabena effectively reemerging as Brussels Airlines.

I doubt this is the last we'll see of Alitalia.

An aspect of Alitalia is still valuable, it's likely that bankruptcy will clear the dross and the healthy remnants of the organisation will come back.

Mebuntu

Its such a Pity that Alitalia didn't manage to reform like its peer airlines over the past 15-20 years. Italy is a airline/tourism goldmine, and has been a highly successful market for many other airlines, yet not for Italys home airline. Italian politics have had a lot of influence here and the airline has been used to play politics a lot over the years.

Way too much in reality. Let us not forget that Aer Lingus was in similar trouble when it had losses of almost €100m for the first half of 2009. Serious action had to be taken and was, resulting in a turnaround. The problem with Alitalia is that the unions and workers are so used to being bailed out by the Govt (illegally in most peoples views) that they can't see the wood for the trees. The only time I booked with Alitalia they went on strike. I'll shed no tears for them.

Graham

Mebuntu wrote: »

The problem with Alitalia is that the unions and workers are so used to being bailed out by the Govt (illegally in most peoples views) that they can't see the wood for the trees.

Exactly

The fact that the staff/unions are refusing to budge suggests there's an expectation of another bail out.

Locker10a

Graham wrote: »

Mebuntu wrote: »

The problem with Alitalia is that the unions and workers are so used to being bailed out by the Govt (illegally in most peoples views) that they can't see the wood for the trees.

Exactly

The fact that the staff/unions are refusing to budge suggests there's an expectation of another bail out.

And their expectation, while a gamble, is not unfounded. As they know the Italian government will not want to see [font=Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]12,500 jobs lost in one day. [/font]

duskyjoe

If anyone here has worked in the aviation industry Italy and seen first hand the cronism that operates within the unions the brankruptcy / demise of Alitalia is not one bit of a surprise. Alitalia could find themselves in all types of problems now going forward when entering bankruptcy especially on long haul where fuel suppliers etc will possibly refuse to service their aircraft unless they get paid up front ......30 days credit facilities will vanish over night.

Cloudio9

Ryanair might have to bring back this paint job from 10 years ago

Needs to be done, Alitalia has been on a DNR for several years now !

kub

Have they many EI registered aircraft?

Locker10a

kub wrote: »

Have they many EI registered aircraft?

I think 70-80

Cloudio9

Locker10a wrote: »

I think 70-80

Dublin spotters will have a field day if they all have to come home.

robyntmorton

EI reg:
31 x A319
33 x A320
4x A321 (active)
12x A330
10 x B777

90 total

(My counts from http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Alitalia.htm)

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

robyntmorton

Some have lease notes attached to them, others seem to be direct ownership (or as direct as ownership is in the airline industry)

If you click through the aircraft types in the link you will see what I mean.

Bazzy

Business/Companies in general have gone from

People are here since jesus was a child and this is the way we always did it so it's right

TO

Lets be efficient and make money and all have a wage and employment and succeed

Granted a lot of perks and benefits are lost in the latter but thats the way things have gone

I have flown Alitalia a few times and never had any complaints apart from the price but I wasn't paying.

They have been bailed out enough and need to stop being a political pawn in a bigger game of chess its time to sh1t or get off the pot

If they did go bankrupt what would that mean for the lease companies heres your plane back good luck with your problem?

Cloudio9

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Anything with an ei reg would be leased

kub

Cloudio9 wrote: »

Anything with an ei reg would be leased

An issue so for some Irish companies?

Cloudio9

kub wrote: »

An issue so for some Irish companies?

If they stop paying the leases yeah they will seize the aircraft. Having them registered Irish will make this easier to do as it comes under irish law.

roundymac

We should post this thread over in Commuting and Transport, let the BE drivers see what could/will happen if they go on strike again. Off thread I know.

L1011

roundymac wrote: »

We should post this thread over in Commuting and Transport, let the BE drivers see what could/will happen if they go on strike again. Off thread I know.

Some outcomes here involve a pile of fudge and another 6 months; for BE it'll be straight in to receivership.

Stovepipe

No matter how bad EI got, and it did, it was never, ever remotely as bad as Alitalia or Sabena, who were the byword in inefficiency and union rules, bud attitude from all ranks and grades. They were regarded as a joke even at home. There's a reason why Sabena was known as Such A Bloody Experience, Never Again. I joined EI at a time when the old attitudes and behaviours were being slowly but quietly erased and most of that stuff is gone now.

Locker10a

Stovepipe wrote: »

No matter how bad EI got, and it did, it was never, ever remotely as bad as Alitalia or Sabena, who were the byword in inefficiency and union rules, bud attitude from all ranks and grades. They were regarded as a joke even at home. There's a reason why Sabena was known as Such A Bloody Experience, Never Again. I joined EI at a time when the old attitudes and behaviours were being slowly but quietly erased and most of that stuff is gone now.

From friends who've worked in Alitalia the pay and conditions of newer Alitalia employees are fairly standard, the problem is it's a company that was a public service, and like all public service companies a key purpose was to create employment, which it duly did. The problems arose when its competitors slimmed down and became efficient and capable of standing alone.
Alitalia hasn't done this, it's has loads of departments full of employees that it probably doesn't need. You can't really blame the employees in these jobs for not wanting to be made redundant. Of course they don't! They joined a company that was providing jobs, the aviation world changed and the airline failed to react to this, could no longer afford to foot the bill of its costs and still never did anything!
At the same time the likes of EI spent years offering various attractive voluntary redundancies. The end result of this was a slimmed down more efficient workforce, and more employees on "refreshed" contracts. Alitalia seem to have failed in this, and politics had a lot to do with it, no Italian governments wanted "redundancy" on their watch and of course unions naturally sought to protect their members.
Newer employees, take for example cabin crew on contemporary contracts would only ever get temp/short term contracts.
I'm sure of the price was right there would have been many older employees would have take redundancy and made way for more new contract staff, while costly this would have eventually lead to a lower wage bill.
And that only the tip of the iceberg with Alitalias inefficiencies