Whiplash is a myth.

James Bond Junior

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2017/apr/29/whiplash-injury-claims-accident-myth-neurosurgeon-speaks-out

A friend was rear ended a few years ago and suffered some neck and back pain but nothing that lasted very long. I'm not very clear on the details of what went on but was awarded tens of thousands of euros for their "injuries" and to the best of my knowledge just let the insurance companies deal with things. There was no court as far as I know, just a straight payout. Said friend was in dire straights financially so I was glad to see them get back on their feet but a lot of me felt totally angered that insurance is so expensive as a result of these payouts.

Thoughts?

durtybit

James Bond Junior wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2017/apr/29/whiplash-injury-claims-accident-myth-neurosurgeon-speaks-out

A friend was rear ended a few years ago and suffered some neck and back pain but nothing that lasted very long. I'm not very clear on the details of what went on but was awarded tens of thousands of euros for their "injuries" and to the best of my knowledge just let the insurance companies deal with things. There was no court as far as I know, just a straight payout. Said friend was in dire straights financially so I was glad to see them get back on their feet but a lot of me felt totally angered that insurance is so expensive as a result of these payouts.

Thoughts?

I heard mentioned a few times that payouts should go on medical receipts instead of a straight payout.

freddieot

Back and neck injuries will always be controversial as they are the hardest to prove.

In contrast to the OPs experience, my friend was in a crash 25 years ago. she suffered some pain at the time and received treatment. Everything paid for of course and in today's money, say about another 25k left in comp.

However, she suffered quite badly at times in the last few years with pain. Not horrendous pain but enough to stop her playing some sports (tennis etc.). No doctor could really pin it down. When she got a bad bout, she just had to put up with it, tablets etc. No comeback on the insurance at this point of course.

In the last year it became much worse and she went to see a specialist in the US, tests, etc. A few weeks ago she had to have an operation on her neck. Without the op the quack told her she would have eventually have lost feeling in her legs. There was apparently some tiny mis-alignment in her neck \ spine as a result of the impact and that was getting worse over time. The tech to spot this was not great 20 years ago when the crash happened.

She is fine now. New lease of life. However, my point is that a simple injury, can lead to serious complications, if not now, then later in life. She was genuinely hurt yet I agree that lots of people fake these kind of injuries.

Very important to be sure which type of claim is being dealt with though or some poor sap could get a raw deal.

_Brian

I think each case has its merits and we can't say blanket that whiplash doesn't exist because op knows someone who duped the insurance companies.

Few years ago I was badly injured in a crash, permanent neck and back injuries, off work for a long time, when I did return I was unable to keep up and lost my job, I had to change careers completly earning much less than before.
My case was eventually settled, took 8 years as the consultants couldn't agree on the extent of the injuries and if they would continue to deteriorate.
I've recently developed vertigo and tinnitus which has been attributed to a knock I got during the accident.
To look at me I look grand, but am in constant pain, agony each morning when I get up, often walk with a slight limp.

Not everyone is taking the piss as regards claims, what needs to happen is sort out the real from false claims.

goz83

I'm similar to the poster above. Only it has happened me twice inside of 5 years. Both times rear ended. Both times in same type of car. Both times written off. First time I had whiplash which lingered for about 2 years and was only just cleared when the second one happened. That time, my injuries turned out to be worse. Extended whiplash and a lower back disc herniation which left me in agony I wouldn't wish on anyone. I had surgery after paying privately and I still suffer, especially in the mornings. Right now, i'm in bed, lightly stretching my legs and back to ease the pain before I get up.

Insurance claims are not the reason for the hikes. Fraudulent claims are said to add €50 to each policy. I wrote a thread taken from the kegal forum last week, but a mod saw fit to move it to the insurance forum :rolleyes:

GhostyMcGhost

Whiplash unfortunately is like the flu

99.9% people have no such thing, it's just a heavy cold and will pass in a few days. God help them if they do get the real flu

Anyway, people will still wail at the doctor and diagnose themselves as having the flu and the doctor can do very little except write it on their sick cert for when they go back to work next week

Same difference

Raging_Ninja

freddieot wrote: »

In the last year it became much worse and she went to see a specialist in the US, tests, etc. A few weeks ago she had to have an operation on her neck. Without the op the quack told her she would have eventually have lost feeling in her legs. There was apparently some tiny mis-alignment in her neck \ spine as a result of the impact and that was getting worse over time. The tech to spot this was not great 20 years ago when the crash happened.

Man, when you used the term "quack" I thought this was gonna go down the medical misadventure route.

James Bond Junior

_Brian wrote: »

I think each case has its merits and we can't say blanket that whiplash doesn't exist because op knows someone who duped the insurance companies.

Few years ago I was badly injured in a crash, permanent neck and back injuries, off work for a long time, when I did return I was unable to keep up and lost my job, I had to change careers completly earning much less than before.
My case was eventually settled, took 8 years as the consultants couldn't agree on the extent of the injuries and if they would continue to deteriorate.
I've recently developed vertigo and tinnitus which has been attributed to a knock I got during the accident.
To look at me I look grand, but am in constant pain, agony each morning when I get up, often walk with a slight limp.

Not everyone is taking the piss as regards claims, what needs to happen is sort out the real from false claims.

Can you reread my op and point out where I said my friend duped the insurance company please. Totally not the case. The company paid out irregardless when they heard it was a rear ending through no fault of my friends and she was suffering some back and neck pain following the accident. How long the pain lasted etc was not the issue, they just paid out when they heard there was neck pain.

The real issue is insurance companies are paying out on whiplash claims because it is so hard to contest and more often than not there is no issues by the time the case is put to bed.

For the record my friend did suffer pain in the aftermath of the accident and missed work etc but went on to make a full recovery. I do believe my friend deserved some financial reward as they were rear ended through no fault of their own and did suffer pain as a result but maybe not the tens of 0000's they did get without even trying.

selectamatic

The real myth here is that injury claims be they fraudulent or valid are driving up insurance costs.

The injuries board has said there was no surge in injury claims over the past few years and zero evidence has been produced to counter this.

Insurance companies had a whale of a time with risky investments during the boom and now since a lot of these ventures have dried up premiums have risen.

Fbd for example apparently struggling, leading the charge on not insuring older cars and yet ceo Fiona Muldoon takes in almost €900k. It doesn't take a financial genius to smell a rat.

Samuel T. Cogley

I simply don't understand why the vitriol is always directed at the (potentially) injured party and not the dickhead that can't keep a safe distance from the car infront. They're the ones driving up insurance premiums - bad drivers.

Conor Bourke

A few years ago I went into the back of a guy. Thankfully it was a fairly minor thing, his car wasn't even scratched, mine was worse off but fixed without too much hassle. He was rubbing his neck the minute I jumped out of my car to see if he was alright but drove off to the other side of the city and refereed a basketball match less than an hour later. He still got a nice payout from what I've heard. I was not impressed but what could I do?! I would've been very dubious of his claim.

About a year later I reversed into a concrete pole doing about 5kmph and I was shocked at how sore my neck was for a couple of days after, considering I was barely moving at any speed so I suppose I had to reconsider my attitude to your man saying his neck hurt. I still don't think he should've gotten a ball of money if he was able to ref a match and didn't have any damage to his car but your neck can definitely be sore after a minimal impact.

ironclaw

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I simply don't understand why the vitriol is always directed at the (potentially) injured party and not the dickhead that can't keep a safe distance from the car infront. They're the ones driving up insurance premiums - bad drivers.

You can be a bad driver all your life and never cause a crash.

I've no issue with fair recompense for a crash, you deserve to get your life back together and some money for your loss of time, wages etc. But take a breeze through the papers and you'll see why we pay so much for insurance. Lad looking for 100k+ when he's lugging cases while out on a back injury, some young lad in Cork claiming PTSD for not playing a few games of footie, a woman falling off a table in Coppers on a night out. And these are the cases we, as the public, know about. There are plenty more sailing through the courts on a daily basis that we never hear about and they all affect our pocket.

And lets not forget that if someone gets a pay out or not, there is an entire team behind that who need to get paid. Ever paid a barrister for a days work? Or perhaps the few weeks of advice on the run up? You'd easily spend the payout times ten on a good defence. And the same on the other side, regardless of where costs are eventually awarded, it has to come from somewhere.

Its a racket from top to bottom. If you are in the legal profession, you need work, so its in your interest to entertain a claim as either way you are getting paid. Its in the interest of the insurance company to settle before a case, as its cheaper. And its all paid for by mandatory insurance in most sectors. Its a gravy train. Whole system needs to be torn up and built again, its rotten to the core.

Samuel T. Cogley

ironclaw wrote: »

You can be a bad driver all your life and never cause a crash.

I've no issue with fair recompense for a crash, you deserve to get your life back together and some money for your loss of time, wages etc. But take a breeze through the papers and you'll see why we pay so much for insurance. Lad looking for 100k+ when he's lugging cases while out on a back injury, some young lad in Cork claiming PTSD for not playing a few games of footie, a woman falling off a table in Coppers on a night out. And these are the cases we, as the public, know about. There are plenty more sailing through the courts on a daily basis that we never hear about and they all affect our pocket.

And lets not forget that if someone gets a pay out or not, there is an entire team behind that who need to get paid. Ever paid a barrister for a days work? Or perhaps the few weeks of advice on the run up? You'd easily spend the payout times ten on a good defence. And the same on the other side, regardless of where costs are eventually awarded, it has to come from somewhere.

Its a racket from top to bottom. If you are in the legal profession, you need work, so its in your interest to entertain a claim as either way you are getting paid. Its in the interest of the insurance company to settle before a case, as its cheaper. And its all paid for by mandatory insurance in most sectors. Its a gravy train. Whole system needs to be torn up and built again, its rotten to the core.

If you're in the legal profession you're working from doctors reports, from a victim's doctor who was hit by an idiot.

The truth is though this is not a major driver of insurance prices. There is the evidence to back this up in various reports and the insurance industy is being forced (albeit once the major part of it is over) to disclose where they're getting premiums from.

The system could be overhauled but all you would do is shift the burden from drivers who cause accidents to the tax payer. I'll take my chances and keep my distance.

goz83

GhostyMcGhost wrote: »

Whiplash unfortunately is like the flu

99.9% people have no such thing, it's just a heavy cold and will pass in a few days. God help them if they do get the real flu

Anyway, people will still wail at the doctor and diagnose themselves as having the flu and the doctor can do very little except write it on their sick cert for when they go back to work next week

Same difference

Thanks for that report Doctor. Unfortunately, i'm allergic to BS, so I'll have to leave now. :rolleyes:

Cornelius Crow wrote: »

A few years ago I went into the back of a guy. Thankfully it was a fairly minor thing, his car wasn't even scratched, mine was worse off but fixed without too much hassle. He was rubbing his neck the minute I jumped out of my car to see if he was alright but drove off to the other side of the city and refereed a basketball match less than an hour later. He still got a nice payout from what I've heard. I was not impressed but what could I do?! I would've been very dubious of his claim.

About a year later I reversed into a concrete pole doing about 5kmph and I was shocked at how sore my neck was for a couple of days after, considering I was barely moving at any speed so I suppose I had to reconsider my attitude to your man saying his neck hurt. I still don't think he should've gotten a ball of money if he was able to ref a match and didn't have any damage to his car but your neck can definitely be sore after a minimal impact.

He may well have been faking/exaggerating, or the pain may have got worse in the days after. When I was first rear ended, I felt the burning in my neck straight away and it got worse over a number of hours.

The second time round, there was nothing more than a dull ache ache from my back and neck. The neck pain got worse that night and about a week later, the back pain really kicked in and just git worse until it was almost unbearable. 18 months later, I had a microdiscectomy.

When you're completely unprepared for a collision, you can be seriously injured quite easily. The person causing the crash has a second to tense up minimise injury. That's why whiplash can happen at very low speeds, such as hitting that pole.

Conor Bourke

goz83 wrote: »

When you're completely unprepared for a collision, you can be seriously injured quite easily. The person causing the crash has a second to tense up minimise injury. That's why whiplash can happen at very low speeds, such as hitting that pole.

I would've thought that tensing up prior to impact actually makes it worse. I know it's instinctive but I don't know if it's always protective. It hasnt been in my experience anyway. The day I tipped the pole I spotted it at the last second and was too stunned to stop in time but managed to tense myself right up which is what I reckon made it so sore. Been in other accidents (as a passenger) and have felt little or no pain as I wasn't expecting the impact or I saw it coming and was able to tell myself to keep calm and loose instead of bracing for it.

CiniO

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Whiplash is a myth.

Agree.
Never heard about whiplash for first 25 years of my life, neither I knew what whiplash was.
Only once I was 25 years old, and I moved permanently to Ireland, started driving here, then I first heard about whiplash.

goz83

Cornelius Crow wrote: »

I would've thought that tensing up prior to impact actually makes it worse. I know it's instinctive but I don't know if it's always protective. It hasnt been in my experience anyway. The day I tipped the pole I spotted it at the last second and was too stunned to stop in time but managed to tense myself right up which is what I reckon made it so sore. Been in other accidents (as a passenger) and have felt little or no pain as I wasn't expecting the impact or I saw it coming and was able to tell myself to keep calm and loose instead of bracing for it.

There are opinions both ways. Mine would be that in general, being relaxed is better if you're hit from behind and your head is against the head rest. If not, it's not supported and will whip back and forward.

I've never had whiplash from roller coasters, or bumper cars. Usually not relaxing experiences (but dead fun).

CiniO wrote: »

Agree.
Never heard about whiplash for first 25 years of my life, neither I knew what whiplash was.
Only once I was 25 years old, and I moved permanently to Ireland, started driving here, then I first heard about whiplash.

Isn't whiplash a popular Polish band?

On a serious note, I can assure you it's no myth. I've had 2 whiplash injuries. My most recent was 3 years and I still suffer with it....like right now it's hurting. It's much better than it was in the first year, but it still causes me problems.

nice_guy80

Most back pain is completely in the mind of the sufferer

If a bone can heal in 6/7 weeks, why should a back continue to be injured for more than a few weeks?

beauf

CiniO wrote: »

Agree.
Never heard about whiplash for first 25 years of my life, neither I knew what whiplash was.
Only once I was 25 years old, and I moved permanently to Ireland, started driving here, then I first heard about whiplash.

Probably never heard of a hangover either.

beauf

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Most back pain is completely in the mind of the sufferer

If a bone can heal in 6/7 weeks, why should a back continue to be injured for more than a few weeks?

But why do bones heal better than ligaments/tendons? The short answer is because bone has plenty of blood supply to it compared to ligament/tendon, which have very little and ligament/tendons are more complex to rebuild.

https://www.coreconcepts.com.sg/article/better-to-break-a-bone/

James Bond Junior

I don't doubt there is a sizeable minority whom are injured but there is a culture in Ireland that see payouts as their wages. I live in Limerick and I pay above average for my car insurance. Why? Because there is a claim culture alive and well in this lovely city which means I have to pay more for insurance because of my address. I may be wrong about whiplash injuries but a quick Google says a lot.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057690687

https://www.google.ie/amp/amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/eight-arrested-over-motor-insurance-claims-scam-296329.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0304/684452-insurance-fraud-investigation-cork/

http://www.insuranceconfidential.ie/media/anatomy-of-a-scam-six-men-and-an-attempted-insurance-fraud

beauf

Like most things in life many people won't believe it or have any empathy until they experience it themselves.

Not that there isn't a lot of fraud. But a lot of the fraud is farcical. In that the same people will have 10~20 claims for various things. No one is that unlucky.

beauf

James Bond Junior wrote: »

I don't doubt there is a sizeable minority whom are injured but there is a culture in Ireland that see payouts as their wages. I live in Limerick and I pay above average for my car insurance. Why? Because there is a claim culture alive and well in this lovely city which means I have to pay more for insurance because of my address. I may be wrong about whiplash injuries but a quick Google says a lot.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057690687

https://www.google.ie/amp/amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/eight-arrested-over-motor-insurance-claims-scam-296329.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0304/684452-insurance-fraud-investigation-cork/

http://www.insuranceconfidential.ie/media/anatomy-of-a-scam-six-men-and-an-attempted-insurance-fraud

Your links do not say anything about whiplash or a compensation culture.

Instead they demonstrate a culture of fraud, and other crimes, perhaps theft.

The majority of the 25 previously interviewed had reportedly made claims for personal injuries.....Not all of those involved were known to each
other, but the majority were “friendly”, sources indicated.

If someone fakes an accident, or a broken leg that doesn't mean you can't break a leg or have an accident.

noel100

Whiplash is real I hit another car at sixty miles an hour in 2006 and suffered neck and shoulder pain for 18 to 24 months. You could see the mark of the belt on my shoulder.
Car was mangled suffered no other injuries.

The mother in-law barely touched the car in front of her at set of traffic lights not a mark on the other car or her own. Biggest mistake was not calling the guards as the couple put a claim in for whiplash and were paid out. They had multiple claims before.

Whiplash is real but there are a lot of fraudsters. Insurance companies shouldn't payout as they do and fight fraudulent claims.

James Bond Junior

beauf wrote: »

You're links do not say anything about whiplash or a compensation culture.

Instead they demonstrate a culture of fraud, and other crimes, perhaps theft.



If someone fakes an accident, or a broken leg that doesn't mean you can't break a leg or have an accident.

My OP has a link included where a consultant states that there is no such thing as whiplash and that invariably when a claim is involved doctors are being forced and or paid very well to write reports that state that their patients are suffering neck and back injuries. My further links were there to demonstrate that the crash for cash culture is ingrained in our society here with a whole medical mini industry being created on the back if it.

Arcade_Tryer

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I'll take my chances and keep my distance.

This.

Many of those constantly criticising the "claim culture" are the same people driving up each other's arses on the M50 every day. Tailgating seems to be the standard for drivers in Ireland nowadays, hence it's no surprise to hear of multiple minor incidents daily in Dublin.

beauf

James Bond Junior wrote: »

My OP has a link included where a consultant states that there is no such thing as whiplash and that invariably when a claim is involved doctors are being forced and or paid very well to write reports that state that their patients are suffering neck and back injuries. My further links were there to demonstrate that the crash for cash culture is ingrained in our society here with a whole medical mini industry being created on the back if it.

But your further links don't prove that. There just prove that fraud and crime exists.

Whiplash is a non specific term. A neck sprain is whiplash. A sore neck is whip lash. Courts and insurance companies are settling for non specific injuries, often fraud. That's all your first link says.

Neck sprain is genuine, he says, but recovery is relatively quick with little evidence of significant physical injury.

I love the comment. "Cheers for the familiar scenario where you are in pain and doctor tells you you aren't."

beauf

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

This.

Many of those constantly criticising the "claim culture" are the same people driving up each other's arses on the M50 every day. Tailgating seems to be the standard for drivers in Ireland nowadays, hence it's no surprise to hear of multiple minor incidents daily in Dublin.

Very true.

There a perfect storm of reason for all the claims. Its not just whip lash.

biko

I do believe there is such a thing as whiplash but it is possible it is not nearly as common as lawyers would have you believe.


During a European joint army exercise there was a slow collision between a French tank and an Irish tank.
The French tank commander jumped from the almost untouched tank shouting "I surrender, I surrender!"
The Irish tank commander jumps out moaning "Whiplash, whiplash!"

beauf

We don't have tanks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_vehicles_of_the_Irish_Army

_Brian

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Most back pain is completely in the mind of the sufferer

If a bone can heal in 6/7 weeks, why should a back continue to be injured for more than a few weeks?

Because some injuries just don't heal, some including my neck injury are inoperable due to the risks because of their location.

I injured three discs in the same crash in my lower back which are pressing on nerves, three discs cannot be removed/fused as the loss of mobility would be worse than my current condition, surgeon said I may not be able to tie my laces ever again.

I've had some nerves burned off so I don't feel it but it's only a partial solution.
Successive consultants have agreed that I'm as good as I'm going to get and make the best of it. I'll be in pain for the rest of my life, sometimes less but sometimes bed bound.

I do the best I can, exercise regularly, keep my weight down and have floor exercises I need to do for 30 minutes every night to keep strength in my back and neck.

The view of "why wouldn't it get better" is simplistic.

seamus

durtybit wrote: »

I heard mentioned a few times that payouts should go on medical receipts instead of a straight payout.

Unfortunately not everything is provable by doctor's receipts.

If you have a persistent or chronic injury, you're not going to attend the doctor every time it flares up. You'll struggle through the day (or some cases stay in bed), take a shedload of painkillers and do some exercises until it works out and you wait for the next time it occurs.

If that was caused by someone else, then you have no way to present a receipt for lost time and expenses, general disruption of your life and the actual pain you're feeling.

And even if you could, do you just keep presenting receipts to an insurance company every couple of weeks for the next ten years? Or fifty years?

Of course not. And that's why the book of quantum exists. Because most people with injury X will incur costs of Y, so we pay out Y. Some people will see Y as a lotto payout, other people would happily hand back that money to get their life back. Averaged out across everyone, it breaks even.

drdeadlift

The elastic/plastic response in muscle isnt a myth.If a muscle is pushed beyond a point it will result in an injury and most likely long lasting.It doesnt have to be anything Debilitating but just life long discomfort.

goz83

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Most back pain is completely in the mind of the sufferer

All pain is in the mind. The reason for the pain is more complex however in many cases.

nice_guy80 wrote: »

If a bone can heal in 6/7 weeks, why should a back continue to be injured for more than a few weeks?

Much healing is "remodelling" and not all healing processes are the same. Mitigating factors will include injury type, injury severity and condition of the patient (age for example).

To focus on the injury type and severity, I give you these examples:

Scenario A
A 30 year old man is lifting a sofa up a stairwell with his colleague. The colleague suddenly loses his grip and the addition weight strains the mans back and causes a minor disc bulge/herniation. The man stays off work for a month and has physiotherapy to help him to heal. The bulge retracts and with ongoing core building exercise, he is not likely to have further problems.

Scenario B
A 30 year old man is lifting a sofa up a stairwell with his colleague. The colleague suddenly loses his grip and the addition weight strains the mans back and causes a major disc bulge/herniation. The man is unable to return to work because of the chronic pain caused by the bulging disc pressing against the nerves. The bulge will not retract due to the level of protrusion and surgery is required to remove the bulging material and repair the damage. The man now has a higher risk of re-herniation and cannot return to lifting sofas for at least 6 months.


The difference between these 2 scenarios could be something as simple as whether the injured man was walking up the stairs, or had his feet firmly planted on the steps. It's really not as simple as saying that a bone can heal in a few weeks...so why can't......

noel100 wrote: »

Whiplash is real I hit another car at sixty miles an hour in 2006 and suffered neck and shoulder pain for 18 to 24 months. You could see the mark of the belt on my shoulder.
Car was mangled suffered no other injuries.

The mother in-law barely touched the car in front of her at set of traffic lights not a mark on the other car or her own. Biggest mistake was not calling the guards as the couple put a claim in for whiplash and were paid out. They had multiple claims before.

Whiplash is real but there are a lot of fraudsters. Insurance companies shouldn't payout as they do and fight fraudulent claims.

Calling the Guards would have done nothing. They likely wouldn't have shown up and the claim would have been filed regardless. Even fraudsters know that genuine pain can take a few days to develop.

Samuel T. Cogley

biko wrote: »

I do believe there is such a thing as whiplash but it is possible it is not nearly as common as lawyers would have you believe.


During a European joint army exercise there was a slow collision between a French tank and an Irish tank.
The French tank commander jumped from the almost untouched tank shouting "I surrender, I surrender!"
The Irish tank commander jumps out moaning "Whiplash, whiplash!"

Doctors. Lawyers go on instructions, they don't diagnose medical conditions.

AnnaStezia

The proposition that whiplash is a myth is as ignorant as it factually wrong. People do suffer whiplash that often resolves. However, in some cases it leaves a serious symptomatic legacy in to the future.

The main problem is one of evidence. The onus of proof rests with the plaintiff. If they cannot make the standard they risk losing the case. Sometimes it comes down to a question of credibility or believability of the plaintiff as a witness.

A secondary problem arising from the medically provable element is that the blatant fraudsters can occupy the same evidentiary space as people who are genuinely hurt thus generating the present cynical disbelief of the honest claimant.