Dublin Coach Dublin Belfast non-stop services

n97 mini

Used this yesterday twice and wanted to give feedback.

10.30 Dublin to Belfast service departed a bit late, seemed to be something to do with traffic. Departed 10.45 and arrived at the Europa at 12.40. 1hr55 mins journey time. Probably 75-80% full, several of those seemed to be tourists.

20.35 from Belfast left bang on time, arrived at 10.30, so 1hr55 journey time again. Return journey was probably around 40% full.

Buses are very comfortable Mercedes with "leather" seats, which appear to be brand new. Toilet in working order and the bus was clean. Wifi didn't work in NI but worked fine in RoI. I guess they don't have roaming.

All in, I would have no hesitation in recommending this service, especially at the EUR10 return special offer price.

devnull

It's great to see another direct service, however it's disappointing they've gone for a timetable with what seems a clear agenda and a price point which is not going to be sustainable long term which seems to piggy back on another operators investment, which shows you just why de-regulation like there is on this route would be a disaster for the overall inter-city market.

I have no doubt their vehicles are quality vehicle being Mercedes, but ultimately such a timetable is not in the long term interests of public transport users and appears designed to make as much as a quick buck as possible for as little cost of establishing the service as possible at the expense of providing a better service and spread of options for the passenger.

belfast stephen

they have posted  this on there Facebook  
[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Big announcement coming on Monday![/font][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] [/font]
[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Stay tuned for our extra special news next week if you're planning on traveling to Belfast with [/font][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Dublin Coach[/font][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]! [/font]

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]i wonder what it will be 
[/font]

n97 mini

@devnull, it's not a direct competitor as it goes city centre to city centre, bypassing the airport, and is a bit quicker as a result.

The Aircoach buses on both ends that departed at the same time had similar or slightly better loadings.

devnull

The simple fact is if the service was within Republic of IReland Ireland it would not be permitted with the timetable that it currently is because it would be considered head to head running and head to head running which is not something that is in the interests of the public which is why the NTA have guidelines to prevent this from happening because it creates a silly situation where you have two express buses at the same time then none for an hour - this is anti consumer.

Competition Committee investigations into similar behavior in the UK and it was found that such timetables which run directly in front or directly behind a competitor, or at the same time, followed by long gaps in services, combined with free fares or massively discounted prices, all three things which have happened with that Dublin Coach service, lead to poorer medium to long term outcomes for consumers and higher prices in the long run.

At the end of the day though Dublin Coach made the obvious conclusion that by head to head running from exactly the same stop at the same terminus at the same time it would require less marketing than having to establish a service in their own right. Essentially it is what is known as piggy backing on someone elses investment, someone else pays to start up a service, inccuring marketing costs to build demand and when the service is working well and profitable, rivals then come in directly at the same times and places to take some of the passenger numbers.

Thankfully on routes within Ireland, the NTA does not allow this to happen and requires timetables to be time separated from the competition unless there is exceptional circumstances, and the timetables to be in the interest of the customer rather than solely what is best for a company, unfortunately however, they have no say on this service so we end up with an anti-consumer, pro bus company timetable.

I couldn't care less who is getting the highest loads or not, from a consumers point of view, the whole set-up is a farce and probably also harms the prospect of a private operator taking up a Dublin to Derry route. Who is going to bother spending weeks/months/years into a new innovative route and spending a lot of money in building it from scratch if when it does become profitable, someone else can simply come in and cream off the hard work that the original operator did in getting the service to be viable with very little time and effort of their own?

howiya

Is there a reason they're allowed park on double yellow lines and a cycle lane on Custom House quay? Could they not stop at the bus bays around the corner on Amien St

Dyr

howiya wrote: »

Is there a reason they're allowed park on double yellow lines and a cycle lane on Custom House quay? Could they not stop at the bus bays around the corner on Amien St

Buses seem to be allowed to park themselves up anywhere in the city centre, just look at the tour buses on O'Connell street

n97 mini

devnull wrote: »

The simple fact is if the service was within Republic of IReland Ireland it would not be permitted

Well we do have the Circle Line debacle in which CL blamed DB for swamping their service with taxpayer subsidised buses, which brought and end to the CL service, so if DB were permitted... But that's a separate story.

This is two private operators slugging it out and at no-one's expense only their own. The short-term winner is the consumer, the long term winner will be either Aircoach or Dublin Coach, or maybe a mixture of the two. There will be at least one man standing at the end either way, so the consumer won't lose out.

devnull

n97 mini wrote: »

Well we do have the Circle Line debacle in which CL blamed DB for swamping their service with taxpayer subsidised buses, which brought and end to the CL service, so if DB were permitted... But that's a separate story.

This is two private operators slugging it out and at no-one's expense only their own. The short-term winner is the consumer, the long term winner will be either Aircoach or Dublin Coach, or maybe a mixture of the two. There will be at least one man standing at the end either way, so the consumer won't lose out.

There's no comparison with the Circle Line and Dublin Bus dispute for a number of reasons, firstly none of these companies are subsidized, secondly those routes were subject to licensing and PSO contracts, thirdly it was when we had no proper regulator in place, it's such a flawed comparison on so many levels.

The NTA Said:

In the interest of public transport users and having taken account of market demand the Authority will, when appropriate, endeavour to ensure that, licensed services are separated in time from other services along the route or in the neighbourhood/vicinity of the route, whether those other services are licensed or are Public Service Obligation services.

This will create an integrated system of services that will support the long-term availability and spread of services for public transport users. Indicative time separations are set out below: Express services 30 minute time separation from other express services.

The Authority may reject all or part of an application if the proposed service could result in head-to-head competition with an existing licence holder, jeopardising the preservation of good order and safety on public roads.

Completely different story, cross-border routes are not subject to licensing from either Northern Ireland or Republic of Ireland, they are essentially de-regulated, so operators can do almost fully what they want, in a way which they could not do on routes within the Republic of Ireland market because the NTA believes that such practices are against the interests of the consumers and the traveling public.

The consumer is not being served well when there are two express buses that are leaving pretty much at the same time from the same place then have to wait an hour for the next one, the prospect of another operator piggy backing on someone elses investment in this way simply makes the chance of a private starting up a Dublin to Derry route rather less.

No operator is going to spend millions building up a service from nothing, inccuring start up costs when an operator who had previously no interest in doing the same simply comes in and creams off the benefit, it's just not commercially viable to incur huge start up costs and after the moment the route starts becoming profitable see those profits creamed off by someone else who didn't want to put in the leg work.

The long term winner will have to put up prices after the competitor is eliminated to recover the revenue they lost for ultra-low pricing that Dublin Coach are currently operating on this route, there is no way that £4 each way is sustainable for such a trip, even if Dublin Coach are paying some of the lowest wages in the industry which their accounts suggest they are, it's all about driving the competition out.

The UK authorities also found that such tactics could be considered predatory:

Predatory tactics can include upping the frequency of buses to "crowd out" rivals or timing buses to run just in front and sometimes also just behind a rival's buses. It also said bus groups could hit competition by cutting fares significantly or running buses for free.

I'm all for such a new service, Nobody would be more pleased than me if they ran it without this kind of tactics, since it is a welcome addition to the transport options from Belfast to Dublin, I just don't like the combination of the timetable and price point because I don't think such tactics are in the medium to long term interests of consumers and just encourage a race to the bottom.

n97 mini

devnull wrote: »

The consumer is not being served well when there are two express buses that are leaving pretty much at the same time from the same place then have to wait an hour for the next one,

Check the departure times of the 66A and the train from Leixlip Confey. They depart at the same time most of the day and each service is an hour apart. Joined up thinking from the NTA for you, but something we've had to endure for the last 6 years.

devnull wrote: »

The long term winner will have to put up prices after the competitor is eliminated to recover the revenue they lost for ultra-low pricing

Not likely, as someone else will jump in on the route if it gets too expensive. But neither of us has a crystal ball so we'll just have to wait and see how this one plays out. Personally I view DC's timetable and pricing as a "bang! we're here too", to get a bit of a foothold. Eventually one of them will blink and move their timetable so that departures are every 30 minutes between the two.

devnull

n97 mini wrote: »

Check the departure times of the 66A and the train from Leixlip Confey. They depart at the same time most of the day and each service is an hour apart. Joined up thinking from the NTA for you, but something we've had to endure for the last 6 years.

Again not really a relevant comparison to this, they are publicly funded services and being funded by taxpayers money and taxpayer funding rolling stock, are two different modes etc, of course there is a debate to be had regarding joined up thinking of publicly funded rail services and PSO funded bus services, but that's not at all related to the topic at hand here.

Not likely, as someone else will jump in on the route if it gets too expensive. But neither of us has a crystal ball so we'll just have to wait and see how this one plays out. Personally I view DC's timetable and pricing as a "bang! we're here too", to get a bit of a foothold. Eventually one of them will blink and move their timetable so that departures are every 30 minutes between the two.

History and the UK Office of Fair Trading investigation into the bus market would suggest otherwise however and full de-regulation rarely brings good practice for the benefit of the passenger to the table.

All it does is create a disincentive for innovative new routes that are cross border, because the first one will spend all the money building the trade up and the second and third operators etc will take all the profit, which is hardly fair.

n97 mini

devnull wrote: »

Again not really a relevant comparison to this, they are publicly funded services and being funded by taxpayers money and taxpayer funding rolling stock, are two different modes etc, of course there is a debate to be had regarding joined up thinking of publicly funded rail services and PSO funded bus services, but that's not at all related to the topic at hand here.

Yes, I know. Just making you aware that I have first-hand experience of competing services leaving hourly, at exactly the same time! It's needless and frustrating, especially when the one organisation set the bloody timetable!

devnull wrote: »

History and the UK Office of Fair Trading investigation into the bus market would suggest otherwise however and full de-regulation rarely brings good practice for the benefit of the passenger to the table.

All it does is create a disincentive for innovative new routes that are cross border, because the first one will spend all the money building the trade up and the second and third operators etc will take all the profit, which is hardly fair.

It's not fair, but open competition isn't about fairness. Someone has an established restaurant on a street, someone else can open another competing restaurant on the same street. The consumer benefits, but one may ultimately shut its doors. Otoh, pharmacies are protected, and look how the consumer doesn't benefit from that.

Anyway, there's no point in ping-ponging -- we don't and won't see eye to eye, and neither of us has any control over the situation, so we'll just have to see how it plays out. Who knows, in 6 years time the two may still be departing at the same time and the prices may be virtually the same!

devnull

n97 mini wrote: »

It's not fair, but open competition isn't about fairness. Someone has an established restaurant on a street, someone else can open another competing restaurant on the same street.

But the problem is that the consumer doesn't benefit from this behavior in anything but the short term, it doesn't just harm the company who is being piggy backed on, it also harms the overall industry and people all across the country because it discourages innovation which leads to worse services for the public at the end of the day, because it discourages new ones from being started.

It doesn't make financial sense to start a service that can be the victim of piggy backing because essentially you are just flushing money down the toilet and doing the dog work and spending all the money for someone else to come in later on and cream off all the benefits of the risks you took to start a new innovative service when the other company had zero interest in it.

I think the system we have on inter-city routes in this country is far far better than the EU system that operates for cross border services because it encourages innovation in the sector and prevents piggy backing on others investment and firmly puts the customer first to provide the best spread of departures possible and the long term sustainability of public transport services on routes.

De-Regulation is not all that a lot of people on here seem to think it is the golden ticket, people seem to think we should abolish Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus, remove the NTA and let everyone fight it out doing whatever they want without any rules whatsoever. Unfortunately there is plenty of proof that it does not work and just creates a disjointed system where the customer will always come last.

Anyway, there's no point in ping-ponging -- we don't and won't see eye to eye, and neither of us has any control over the situation, so we'll just have to see how it plays out. Who knows, in 6 years time the two may still be departing at the same time and the prices may be virtually the same!

£8 return isn't sustainable for a return journey of the length that it is unless their drivers are on very low pay and are on daily rate and are not getting any overtime and their tachos are being worked right to the limit, the trouble is that such low prices will push others to reduce wages and terms and conditions to match them, and ultimately can lead a true race to the bottom.

n97 mini

devnull wrote: »

?8 return isn't sustainable for a return journey of the length that it is unless their drivers are on very low pay and are on daily rate and are not getting any overtime and their tachos are being worked right to the limit, the trouble is that such low prices will push others to reduce wages and terms and conditions to match them, and ultimately can lead a true race to the bottom.

It's not sustainable, but it's only an introductory offer. I've no doubt it's being cross-subsidised by other DC services, and that their drivers on all routes are being paid the same rates.

n97 mini

devnull wrote: »

De-Regulation is not all that a lot of people on here seem to think it is the golden ticket, people seem to think we should abolish Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus, remove the NTA and let everyone fight it out doing whatever they want without any rules whatsoever. Unfortunately there is plenty of proof that it does not work and just creates a disjointed system where the customer will always come last.

I don't think anyone thinks that the NTA should be removed... if the NTA did their job right. I certainly don't. But they need to up their game big time. The 66A and train are proof (and only one example) that the NTA are well capable of devising a disjointed system all by themselves.

devnull

n97 mini wrote: »

It's not sustainable, but it's only an introductory offer.

The offer will continue until they have encouraged enough passengers across, everybody knows that, the moment they have a captive market and the piggy backing has delivered enough results, the prices will go up.

I've no doubt it's being cross-subsidised by other DC services, and that their drivers on all routes are being paid the same rates.

Having just read the accounts, it suggests their staff are a decent chunk less than Aircoach and there would be a huge difference to what Bus Eireann pay, couple that with a quite scathing auditors report and net assets of (-€4.5m) and unless something has dramatically changed since their last accounts or they have had some external investment, I can't see how they can manage it for long.

On the whole they have a very old fleet, even if they are using modern vehicles on Belfast, they are very much the exception to the rule, the majority of their services are run on 13-14 year old buses and coaches, I don't think it's particularly fair that the passengers on several other routes should have to put up with 13 year old vehicles so they can throw money at what is for all intents and purposes a bus war on a cross-border route.

XPS_Zero

n97 mini wrote: »

I don't think anyone thinks that the NTA should be removed... if the NTA did their job right. I certainly don't. But they need to up their game big time. The 66A and train are proof (and only one example) that the NTA are well capable of devising a disjointed system all by themselves.

I'm reading this place a while and I don't think anyone thinks there should be a right wing totally deregulated free for all.

My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that much like economies as a whole, we've seen that total suffocating state control only gets you big problems, and so does a free for all (see this in the wider economy as well, USSR/Venezula/Cuba v Ireland, US and UK 2001-2008 deregulating the financial sector). History has shown the best model is a certain element of state control and state rules and within that, fair competition, which is why the Luas model of state owning the infrastructure, writing the rules and setting the fares, but private management day to day is so much better run than CIE.

I've seen how the London bus system works and see no reason why ours could not work that way. The UK is a great example of what works and what does not, you can see things that were totally privatized had to , in many cases, be taken back into public ownership (or there is a huge demand for it like the intercity rail network) but you can also see a similar model to Luas working very well with the bus network in London.

devnull

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I've seen how the London bus system works and see no reason why ours could not work that way. The UK is a great example of what works and what does not, you can see things that were totally privatized had to , in many cases, be taken back into public ownership (or there is a huge demand for it like the intercity rail network) but you can also see a similar model to Luas working very well with the bus network in London.

The problem with the UK Rail Network is that it's been used as a political football where the politicians have deliberately made out the positives to be a result of them and shifted all of the blame to the operators. The classical case is an operator projecting x amount of passenger growth and wanting to make a train order for a certain amount of carriages and another amount as later options.

The government tell the operator they won't get that growth, cut the order substantially and remove the clause for options on the order. A short while later, the government then moan at the same operator saying why are their trains overcrowded and the public blame privatization despite the fact the decision was taken by a public body that caused the issue.

devnull

According to the Dublin Coach Facebook page, the Belfast route is going to launch a very special announcement today apparently at 5.00pm, it will be very interesting to see what that is, I imagine it will be something substantial.

I noticed that there's several cancellations on their other routes in the last few days and comments about pretty regular breakdowns, which is hardly surprising given the fact those routes continue to be mostly operated by 13 year old vehicles.

It is great that they are using new nice vehicles on the Belfast route but when this route is established and if they become the lead operator will they stop investing in vehicles for it too in favour or a newer route?

devnull

The so called big announcement

The big announcement you have all been waiting for! ��
Dublin Coach are now partner to Victoria Square! All Dublin Coach passengers can now avail of multiple discounts in various shops & restaurants when traveling on our M1 Express Service (Dublin/Belfast). Discounts will be live on Dublin Coach tomorrow!