Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

Permabear

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Black Swan

Grand topic Permabear.

Have not read ZAMM, so I must plead ignorance regarding this work in particular, but have read Zen and the Art of the Swordmanship (as well as practiced Iaijutsu in recent years), and read Zen and the Art of Archery, Eugen Herrigel, 1953. I have also read Kaizen by Masaaki Imai (1986), whereupon zen was applied to productivity, especially manufacturing in Japan after WWII. I am also aware that the "do" in Taekwondo represents the philosophy of the martial art, which, upon practicing it for years suggests a zen art form. This makes me wonder to what extent zen was the central thesis, and the different arts (e.g., motorcycle maintenance, sword, archery, manufacturing, Taekwondo, Iaijutsu) were only incidental to zen's application?

Earthhorse

I read ZAMM when I was in my late teens and recall being thoroughly underwhelmed.

One bit that stood out for me though and stayed with me was when the narrator (I think) was giving a class on creative writing and set an exercise for the class to describe their hometown. One of the students struggles with the assignment and he comes to him for advice. He starts by suggesting he could describe the history of the town, then goes on to suggest he could describe the inhabitants, then suggest the businesses, and with each suggestion (the examples I'm giving are probably not accurate), he narrows down the scope until he suggests to the pupil that he should focus on describing just a single brick in the town.

More recently I was talking to a friend of mine who is a philosopher (by training) and an ex joiner (by trade) about my new apartment and the difficulty I was having getting a carpenter to do work on it. He asked me whether I would consider taking on some of the jobs myself and I said that I could read all the books and watch all the YouTube tutorials on the matter, follow every step to the greatest precision, and I would still make a botch of it. He recalled to mind a passage from the book where the son-in-law and father-in-law are discussing the son's new bike which needs a new part. The son is new to bikes and knows exactly the part he needs to buy. The father picks up a can of Coke, pierces or adjusts it in some way, and fits it the bike and voila; problem solved.

Black Swan wrote: »

I am also aware that the "do" in Taekwondo represents the philosophy of the martial art, which, upon practicing it for years suggests a zen art form. This makes me wonder to what extent zen was the central thesis, and the different arts (e.g., motorcycle maintenance, sword, archery, manufacturing, Taekwondo, Iaijutsu) were only incidental to zen's application?

And I think that's exactly the point that both those passages (which I have probably mangled a fair bit) are getting at. That you must go deep into something to approach or experience Zen.

I studied Kung Fu for a few years and we were always told that it meant the "difficult path". That you could practise Kung Fu in anything; martial arts, playing an instrument, cleaning the house. Indeed, Wiki confirms as much, "(Kung Fu) is a Chinese term referring to any study, learning, or practice that requires patience, energy, and time to complete. In its original meaning, kung fu can refer to any discipline or skill achieved through hard work and practice, not necessarily martial arts."

I'm assuming these principles may have their roots in Confucianism which I believe is quite a stoic philosophy about gradual improvement over years which probably puts this from of Zen at odds with the more Taoist Zen which is much more about surrender and acceptance.

Black Swan

Permabear wrote: »

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Well Permabear, you've captured my interest. Would you consider sharing both the ongoing process and findings associated with "we have started reading ZAMM together... and whether the perspective presented in ZAMM can be reconciled with our general Judeo-Christian Western worldview?" How about a blow-by-blow account, giving qualitative and anecdotal arguments and their outcomes, of course presented here in the context and content of your high standards of philosophical understanding and communications? You may elect not to do so, but if you don't, expect me to shake my fist at you for stimulating my interest, then leaving me on a cliff overlooking a void without explanation.

take everything

Reading ZAMM at the moment and definitely getting something from it. Taking my time with it to let it sink in.
Pirsig passed away a few days ago.

Actually the bit about his epiphany on grading and eschewing grading as a marker of value intrigued me. Trying to remember exactly how it went but: after doing away with grading in the class he teaches, the students with genuine interest excel whereas those who go to college to study for the grade do worse in the new system (where he still records but doesn't reveal the grade).

However that just begged the question: hasn't he just set himself up as the arbiter of what value is (the new grading system is now just his subjective assessment of his students). Maybe he goes on to resolve this (I haven't read further). But I do agree that this constant labelling and socialisation/"external"isation (even in terms of basic language) gets in the way of true value/experience.

I for one never studied to pass an exam. Always studied to learn out of interest. And only ever did well because of that interest. Is this a central tenet of the book.

Permabear

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Fourier

Permabear wrote: »

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I know you're not defending this, but I would have thought these are very different concepts. The complex numbers are just the 2D plane with a multiplication rule, so they're just a way of encoding 2D geometry in algebra. They appear in the natural world anywhere 2D geometry is natural to the functioning of the system (eg electrical circuits). Nothing to believe in I would have thought. I'm probably missing the point though and also off-topic!

Permabear

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Fourier

Oh, it's really just a metaphor for an understanding of God aligned with the philosophy of ZAMM. The square root of -1 (i) is an imaginary number and yet as you note, we can see its effects everywhere in the natural world. She said that to her, God is much the same.

I see what you mean, my point would be that i isn't really any different from 2 in this regard, the phrase "imaginary" is just a hold over from when they had no application beyond being an odd method to solve algebraic equations. I think seeing them as something less real or abstract comes from standard mathematics education which doesn't emphasise their geometric meaning, they're as real as any 2D object. A topic for another time and largely irrelevant to her point which I assume is roughly: something which is apparently a purely mental object at first, turns out to be evident in external reality.

Permabear

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Black Swan

Permabear wrote: »

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Does she departmentalise her life between Catholicism and reasoned analysis, or does she allow one to interact with the other, perhaps reaching some Hegelian synthesis, or what? How does ZAMM inform or otherwise contribute specifically to how she addresses belief and analytic reasoning?

Permabear

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Black Swan

Permabear wrote: »

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Compartmentalisation seems to be the way my friends (those who claim a religious belief system) handle that dilemma.

Permabear wrote: »

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I do have a friend who is ELCA Lutheran and a faculty member in a Biology department, and they take a similar position as your girlfriend takes should she claim that all "flows from God." They teach both creationism and evolution, suggesting that both should be empirically tested using the scientific method. He goes further with this idea suggesting that like the Big Bang, creationism may be a start for evolution to begin. While I have read literature suggesting that evolutionary theory has merit, I am a bit critical of the literature that has been offered in support of creationism, finding that it lacks methodological rigour.

Permabear wrote: »

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Have you encountered any conceptual framework that has been empirically tested that may lend support to ZAMM?

Permabear

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Black Swan

Any updates Permabear regarding your live, ongoing ZAMM experiment with your significant other?

Permabear

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Black Swan

More than half a year has passed. Any Zen updates Permabear?

Permabear

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Black Swan

Thanks for the Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance update Permabear. The practical application of philosophy can be challenging.