first aid in schools?

uck51js9zml2yt

Is there any requirement to have a qualified first aider in primary schools?

byhookorbycrook

in short, no. As a staff, we do a course on our own time, but that's not mandatory.

uck51js9zml2yt

Thanks for the info but I find that incredible.

A company must have qualified first aiders yet a school which potentially hundreds of kids doesnt need one.

I know most schools have policy of calling the parents but what happens the child in a potentially serious incidence?
What happens if a child has a serious head injury or its heart stops and no one is trained to put the child in the recovery position or do CPR ?


I saw it in my own kids school. A child gets a serious cut. the teacher puts cotton wool and a plaster on it and only calls the parent hours later.
When the child is brought to the hospital needing stitches its too late to do a proper stitch due to damage to the skin.

Really Interested

Kaliyah Plump Waistline wrote: »

Thanks for the info but I find that incredible.

A company must have qualified first aiders yet a school which potentially hundreds of kids doesnt need one.

I know most schools have policy of calling the parents but what happens the child in a potentially serious incidence?

I saw it in my own kids school. A child gets a serious cut. the teacher puts cotton wool and a plaster on it and only calls the parent hours later.
When the child is brought to the hospital needing stitches its too late to do a proper stitch due to damage to the skin.

What happens if a child has a serious head injury or its heart stops and no one is trained to put the child in the recovery position or do CPR ?

Is it a legal requirement that a company must have a first aider?

byhookorbycrook

We have a Defib on site. Which we funded ourselves . The DES don't require first aid training or indeed fund it .Schools in other countries have nurses on site .

uck51js9zml2yt

Really Interested wrote: »

Is it a legal requirement that a company must have a first aider?

It comes under health and safety.

Really Interested

Kaliyah Plump Waistline wrote: »

It comes under health and safety.

I am not aware of any legal requirement I would be interested if you can point me at the law as many business I am aware do not have first aiders.

Gatling

We've gone and organised our own course for parents in our kids school ,
Most of the staff are already first aid qualified I believe but any injuries are sent to the school secateary to be dealt with,

happywithlife

I know many teachers who are first aiders in their personal life outside of school but do not put their name down in school as a first aider due to the compo nature we have in Ireland and I having witnessed a nasty court case firsthand in my own staffroom I can understand why. I think most schools adapt a "ring the parents" approach and let the parent call the shots on how to proceed. If a child has a serious medical issues which could put them at risk I'm sure the parents undertake to make the staff aware and work with them to figure out the best course of action. I've a child who suffers febrile convulsions - he was the first at his creche to have one on site and I can't fault their reaction at the time and commend them for undergoing further training at their own cost since. It is disgraceful funding isn't available to undergo necessary training but there you go.

Kaliyah Plump Waistline

Kaliyah Plump Waistline wrote: »

Is there any requirement to have a qualified first aider in primary schools?

Why do you ask Kaliyah Plump Waistline? If teachers had all the qualifications parents wanted they would need a lot of degrees and courses done to qualify them to teach. I think people can be very petty about injuries these days...when we were younger we were told we would be better before we were married unless it really was a proper injury!

Also if a cut needs a stitch it is preferable if that is done 6-8 hours after but can be done up to 24 hours after if necessary. If the teacher rang home then it would have been within a few hours so would not have been unable to get a stitch at that stage?

uck51js9zml2yt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why do you ask tatranska? If teachers had all the qualifications parents wanted they would need a lot of degrees and courses done to qualify them to teach. I think people can be very petty about injuries these days...when we were younger we were told we would be better before we were married unless it really was a proper injury!

Also if a cut needs a stitch it is preferable if that is done 6-8 hours after but can be done up to 24 hours after if necessary. If the teacher rang home then it would have been within a few hours so would not have been unable to get a stitch at that stage?

Came up in a conversation and I'll go with the medics view on the timing of the stitches in this one..:)

So back to my other point..no trained first aiders and a child gets a bang on the head and is unresponsive or has some other emergency occur. It worries me that no one is trained to respond to such a case. Calling a parent to come in is too late.
Is it time for teachers to demand appropriate training.
I know my son's Montessori is required to have staff trained as first aiders by the dept, why not schools?

Kaliyah Plump Waistline

Kaliyah Plump Waistline wrote: »

Came up in a conversation and I'll go with the medics view on the timing of the stitches in this one..:)

So back to my other point..no trained first aiders and a child gets a bang on the head and is unresponsive or has some other emergency occur. It worries me that no one is trained to respond to such a case. Calling a parent to come in is too late.
Is it time for teachers to demand appropriate training.
I know my son's Montessori is required to have staff trained as first aiders by the dept, why not schools?

That is a medics view.

If a child banged his head an ambulance would be called as this is normal course of action in situation like that and parents would be called second and told ambulance was on the way.

happywithlife

Kaliyah Plump Waistline wrote: »

Came up in a conversation and I'll go with the medics view on the timing of the stitches in this one..:)

So back to my other point..no trained first aiders and a child gets a bang on the head and is unresponsive or has some other emergency occur. It worries me that no one is trained to respond to such a case. Calling a parent to come in is too late.
Is it time for teachers to demand appropriate training.
I know my son's Montessori is required to have staff trained as first aiders by the dept, why not schools?

I think if a child was unresponsive after a head bang any half decent teacher would phone an ambulance so that would solve that one. Accidents and the unforseen happen all the time- if all those in charge of children were required to have first aid training then parents should receive some certified paediatric first aid as part of their antenatal classes no? Teachers are NOT and never shoule take the place of trained medics and to confuse a certificate in first aid with actual trained paramedics would be dangerous territory imo

Arbie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Also if a cut needs a stitch it is preferable if that is done 6-8 hours after but can be done up to 24 hours after if necessary.

I read that as suggesting it's better to wait for 6-8 hours until stitching, but I presume you mean that you have upto 6-8 hours? Just to be clear, while there is some leeway depending on the size and location, lacerations should be closed as soon as possible.

I don't think anyone expects teachers to be suturing wounds in the playground but if a child was choking or collapsed, I would expect at least 1 staff member to be able to perform CPR.

CPR training takes 1 day of training every 2 years; it's not onerous and it's reasonable to expect that anyone in charge of children should have the certificate. A student a year ahead of me in secondary school died in class one day due to cardiac arrest. No one had CPR training and while it may not have saved her anyway, at least they could have done something. Out of hospital cardiac arrests have very low survival rates, but without CPR you have almost zero chance.

jkelly85

Really Interested wrote: »

I am not aware of any legal requirement I would be interested if you can point me at the law as many business I am aware do not have first aiders.

Under health and safety regulation all places of work must have occupational first aided as per there risk assessments and saftely statement

If anyway wants more information about courses that you need you can DM me

John

meeeeh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why do you ask tatranska? If teachers had all the qualifications parents wanted they would need a lot of degrees and courses done to qualify them to teach.

Every company has to have someone who has done first aid course. In our case someone with junior cert. But two day course too much of a burden to send one person (teacher or not) from a school to? Now I know kids don't pay taxes but still that's​ very cold way of looking at things... I think there should be someone in school who knows how to position unconscious child so they don't choke on their own vomit while waiting for an anambulance to come. And I don't think that's too much to expect. Even from teachers.

Big Bag of Chips

Some people are making it sound like teachers are actively avoiding doing a first aid course! A teacher on here has confirmed that teachers take these courses in their own time (and at their own expense?) It would be interesting to survey all schools and find out how many schools have nobody on sight who is a first aider. Also nobody should confuse first aid with medical attention! I would much prefer a teacher to contact a relevant medical professional to deal with a head wound than trying to manage it themselves!!.

I think if parents want to see policy change across the board then the best thing to do would be to contact the dept, or the minister for education.

Free-2-Flow

Really Interested wrote:

I am not aware of any legal requirement I would be interested if you can point me at the law as many business I am aware do not have first aiders.

The Health and Safety (First-Aid) Regulations 1981 require employers to provide adequate and appropriate equipment, facilities and personnel to ensure their employees receive immediate attention if they are injured or taken ill at work. These Regulations apply to all workplaces including those with less than five employees and to the self-employed.

But here is the interesting part.

The Regulations do not place a legal duty on employers to make first-aid provision for non-employees such as the public or children in schools. However, HSE strongly recommends that non-employees are included in an assessment of first-aid needs and that provision is made for them.

FanadMan

An old friend of mine was an A&E nurse that was trained abroad. When she moved back to Ireland to a new hospital she asked, quite innocuously, about being on the scene of a road traffic accident and was told to just phone an ambulance. If she identified herself as a nurse on scene (even if she was off duty) the hospital would be liable in case of death or serious injury (from her treatment).

From talking to her about this thread, she is of the same opinion - if school staff identify themselves as first aiders to the school then they and/or the school are liable if a child has an accident and the FA treats it.

It's a really horrible situation but with the compo culture as it is, the schools have to cover their own backsides.

gctest50

FanadMan wrote: »

.............

From talking to her about the thread she is of the same opinion - if school staff identify themselves as first aiders to the school then they and/or the school are liable if a child has an accident and the FA treats it.

It's a really horrible situation but with the compo culture as it is, the schools have to cover their own backsides.

You can't weasel out like that business or in day-care - have to name your first-aid person:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2016/si/221/made/en/print

First aid


25. (1) A registered provider shall ensure that a person trained in first aid for children is, at all times, immediately available to the children attending the pre-school service.


(2) A registered provider shall ensure that a suitably equipped first aid box for children—


(a) is safely stored in an easily accessible and conspicuous position on the premises, and


(b) is available to the children attending the pre-school service at all times.

If pre-schools must have this, I can't see any reason why primary schools don't have the same

.

Del2005

FanadMan wrote: »

An old friend of mine was an A&E nurse that was trained abroad. When she moved back to Ireland to a new hospital she asked, quite innocuously, about being on the scene of a road traffic accident and was told to just phone an ambulance. If she identified herself as a nurse on scene (even if she was off duty) the hospital would be liable in case of death or serious injury (from her treatment).

From talking to her about this thread, she is of the same opinion - if school staff identify themselves as first aiders to the school then they and/or the school are liable if a child has an accident and the FA treats it.

It's a really horrible situation but with the compo culture as it is, the schools have to cover their own backsides.

We've had Good Samaritan law for several years. There is no reason for a person not to help if they have training, once you don't exceed your training levels.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2011/act/23/section/4/enacted/en/html

Also there's Citizen CPR which anyone can do


https://youtu.be/LxhK_uHS0EE

As my instructor said when training the chances of doing CPR on a family member or friend are way more than on a stranger.

Del2005

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

. Also nobody should confuse first aid with medical attention! I would much prefer a teacher to contact a relevant medical professional to deal with a head wound than trying to manage it themselves!!.
.

1st Aid keeps the person alive till medical attention makes them better. Without 1st Aid the chances of a successful recovery greatly reduces, especially with our ambulance response times.

FanadMan

gctest50 wrote: »

You can't weasel out like that business or in day-care - have to name your first-aid person:







If pre-schools must have this, I can't see any reason why primary schools don't have the same

.

I agree wholeheartedly! Places like primary schools are going to have a lot of bumps, bruises and cuts. Having someone that is able to take care of them straight away would be brilliant. A full-time nurse would be better though. But still, the schools are worried about claims against them if a child gets a scraped knee and someone puts a band aid on it

gctest50

FanadMan wrote: »

I agree wholeheartedly! Places like primary schools are going to have a lot of bumps, bruises and cuts. Having someone that is able to take care of them straight away would be brilliant. A full-time nurse would be better though. ......

lol, looking for a handy number for your friend ?

FanadMan wrote: »

An old friend of mine was an A&E nurse that was trained abroad

Schools are bad enough with having a HSE reject in each one

Free-2-Flow

Del2005 wrote:

1st Aid keeps the person alive till medical attention makes them better. Without 1st Aid the chances of a successful recovery greatly reduces, especially with our ambulance response times.

Your chances are 1 in 10

Free-2-Flow

I went and done 1st Aid a couple of months ago, everyone should have it.

Wanderer78

Free-2-Flow wrote:

I went and done 1st Aid a couple of months ago, everyone should have it.

It should be a part of the curriculum

Moody_mona

Wanderer78 wrote: »

It should be a part of the curriculum

Or maybe parents could be responsible for encouraging their children to to, or better still, go with them. Not everything has to be done by teachers.

Wanderer78

Moody_mona wrote:

Or maybe parents could be responsible for encouraging their children to to, or better still, go with them. Not everything has to be done by teachers.

Good point but many parents are too busy working and paying mortgages etc. Ditch half the curriculum, homework etc, introduce more important life skills such as first aid etc and end this creation of worker drone mentality of our educational system

meeeeh

Moody_mona wrote: »

Or maybe parents could be responsible for encouraging their children to to, or better still, go with them. Not everything has to be done by teachers.

Why not? Every other organization is supposed to do it. Are you suggesting 5 year olds should be in charge of first aid in schools?

On a separate note I had to do first aid as part of driving test (and it was offered as part of extracurricular activities in my high school) and where I come from not stopping at the side of accident and at least calling for help is illegal. To me it is reprehensible that someone who could would refuse help so they don't get sued.

I really do not understand what the fuss is. It's useful skill to have even so you don't make more damage with your actions.

Edit: I might have mistook what quoted post was saying. I wouldn't expect teachers to teach but I certainly would expect on person in school to have first aid training and be in charge when something happens. It's a responsible thing to do.

strawberrie

Why are you assuming that teachers have no first aid training? Our Board organises paediatric first aid training for all staff every two years.
The training is not provided by the government but the school itself makes provision for it as part of it's Health and Safety responsibilities.
Another school I worked in paid for training for 6members of staff. All training is outside of school hours and at the school's expense

meeeeh

strawberrie wrote: »

Why are you assuming that teachers have no first aid training? Our Board organises paediatric first aid training for all staff every two years.
The training is not provided by the government but the school itself makes provision for it as part of it's Health and Safety responsibilities.
Another school I worked in paid for training for 6members of staff. All training is outside of school hours and at the school's expense

I'm not assuming anything. I'm​ saying it should be mandatory like in any other organization. I was responding to those who claimed schools shouldn't need to have it and common sense and a phone is enough.

Big Bag of Chips

FanadMan wrote: »

Places like primary schools are going to have a lot of bumps, bruises and cuts. Having someone that is able to take care of them straight away would be brilliant

I've yet to hear of a child who got a bump, bruise or cut in school who was ignored. Any child I know usually gets a plaster, and a biscuit!

A full-time nurse would be better though. But still, the schools are worried about claims against them if a child gets a scraped knee and someone puts a band aid on it

A full time nurse?? To give out plasters for cut knees?!!

I spent 14 years in school. I have friends and family who spent 13/14 years in school. I have children, nieces, nephews who are in school! Never in my experience has a child had a bump/cut that wasn't tended to. A classmate of my son bumped his head against a wall one day and was immediately attended to by teachers, who also immediately called the parent.

This thread would have you believe teachers are hiding in the staffroom with the first aid box locked away!!

meeeeh

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

This thread would have you believe teachers are hiding in the staffroom with the first aid box locked away!!

Talk about hyperbole. Teachers are smart but nobody can be expected to act correctly without any training. People can't be just assumed they will act correctly when someone is choking, that they will just know how to do CPR, how to position unconscious people or how to act in case of burns. I would suspect everyone is able to put plaster on the wound but not everyone knows when to act or when not to act so they don't do even more damage.

Edit: and I am sure many teachers or other school workers have appropriate training but there should be a law makes that there is one in every school. I can't see why schools should be any different than other organizations.

Big Bag of Chips

Maybe there should be a law, but I'd be curious to find out how many schools in Ireland have not one single member of staff who has first aid training. Very very few, if not none, I'd imagine!

It doesn't seem to be a law at the moment (although surely as a place of employment one member of staff will be trained as the first aider?) but that doesn't mean that teachers just ignore it. As mentioned many teachers complete first aid courses personally.

r93kaey5p2izun

The law does not require every workplace to have a trained First Aider. Most workplaces with less than 100 employees only require one if their Health and Safety statement deems one necessary. Pupils don't count as employees under the requirements - just as customers don't for businesses.

Personally I think pupils should count in the numbers and schools should be required to have adequate First Aid provision but that will never happen because it would cost money. I have attended meetings about this where I work. The legal department's view was that primary schools would get away with no First Aider as the occupational risks are low but a second level school would not because of the increased risks associated with Science, Home Ec, Woodwork etc. My school pays for 10 First Aiders to be trained but it struggles to get volunteers. It takes a huge amount of time weekly (probably 1-2 class periods per week) and no allowance is given against S&S or Croke Park hours and there have been lots of claims, which haven't called First Aiders into question but have required testimony from them which is stressful and a lot of hassle.

I am trained and have done it for years but I will reconsider when the refresher comes around.