Which dog breed?

Lumen

Please help, my brain is melted.

We have had a dog before (Jap spitz), it didn't work out because we had two small babies in creche, were out at work all day and didn't have the energy/commitment to raise the dog properly. My brother-in-law adopted it and it had a happy life.

After much thought we've decided to go again, with our eyes wide open this time and changed circumstances: older kids (9 and 11), more free time to train and spend time with it, people in the house from about 2pm, a big garden and lovely local places to walk.

Our main requirements are:

- Small-medium sized dog that makes a good family pet.
- Low prey drive/reasonably cat friendly.
- Can cope with 5 hours alone (with the cat for company) on weekdays without getting overly stressed.
- Enough endurance to cope with a 5k run, but doesn't need more than about half an hour of structured exercise a day plus a bit of lightly supervised running around the garden.
- Can be trained to stay inside a 4ft fence.

The cat thing seems to rule out terriers and various sorts of hunting dogs, which is a shame as I really like the look of hounds.

My shortlist is:

- Border collie
- Miniature schnauzer
- Shiba Inu

...and that's it.

Once I've settled on the breed I'll go about finding a reputable source from the Kennel Club (assuming that's the right approach).

I'm not optimistic about finding a rescue dog just because it's too hard to find one that meets our requirements and that's young enough to be introduced to the cat.

Thoughts?

Meeeee79

I would highly recommend a labrador. They have fantastic temperments and are so well suited to a house with kids. We have a lab ourselves and 2 kids who all adore eachother. They are on the bigger side though so may be too big for what you said you were looking for. My next suggestion would be a cavalier king charles. Lovely sized dog, generally very sociable with people and other animals . As with most dogs though both labs and king charles love company and being with their humans.

Lumen

Meeeee79 wrote: »

I would highly recommend a labrador. They have fantastic temperments and are so well suited to a house with kids. We have a lab ourselves and 2 kids who all adore eachother. They are on the bigger side though so may be too big for what you said you were looking for. My next suggestion would be a cavalier king charles. Lovely sized dog, generally very sociable with people and other animals . As with most dogs though both labs and king charles love company and being with their humans.

Thanks.

Yeah, I just feel that a lab is too big/heavy (almost twice the weight of a border collie, according to the charts).

I looked at King Charles Spaniels before but wrote them off as being fundamentally unhealthy (hips, ears, eyes, hearts, is there anything that works properly on them?).

TresGats

Hi, It depends on the terrier.
I have a 9 year old Jack Russell whose owner was terminally ill-has now passed on, so I took her home one day 2 years ago to see how she'd get on with the 3 cats (who rule the roost). She never as much as growled at the cats, and they will all sit up on the sofa together now/ share food , play etc.
I had been looking out for a pug, as I heard they are not prey - driven, but tbh I'm not mad about them. My Jacker worked out just fine.
With the cats, It took me a whlle to totally trust her and leave them alone together.
What I'm saying is that the dog that suits you and your family may not be dog you think will. My dog was 7 1/2 and 'hated' cats, according to her original owner.

Knine

A collie is not really suitable for your lifestyle. Neither is a Shiba. They are not first time dogs.

You might be surprised to find that many terriers will happily live with a family cat. They will still have their high prey drive once they see a mouse though or the neighbours cat though.

Giving a dog a half hour walk & then expecting it to be fit enough to run 5k is asking for trouble.

Is there any other breeds you are interested in?

Ms Doubtfire1

Border collie - needs way more than half an hour
- Miniature schnauzer - could be ok
- Shiba Inu - not a hope staying within 4 foot fence

ever thought of a staffie?

sillysmiles

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not optimistic about finding a rescue dog just because it's too hard to find one that meets our requirements and that's young enough to be introduced to the cat.

I think could be a mistake as a good rescue will know the specific dog. Some dogs are great examples of the breed characterisitics and some aren't. I think I would focus on the characteristic you need and talk to a few rescues and see what they say.

- Enough endurance to cope with a 5k run, but doesn't need more than about half an hour of structured exercise a day plus a bit of lightly supervised running around the garden.

I also think you might be not thinking this through fully, as I think it is unrealistic to expect a dog to be fit enough to run 5km if it's only being walked 30mins per day. Or conversley to expect a dog that can 5km to be content with 30mins per day.

LirW

I second the Labrador here.

I have an Australian Shepherd, they are basically borders but a tad less bonkers (but more stubborn and drama queens, jesus christ) and this is definitely not something you're really looking for.

I'd probably also go down the rescue route, young dog but no puppy. That's just a personal note here, I think puppies are more demanding than my 2 month old and you really have to plan around them in the beginning. I made the experience that a dog with a good temper can also be introduced to cats when they're 1 or 2 years old and they are out of the worst then.

Knine

LirW wrote: »

I second the Labrador here.

Seriously? For a half hours exercise a day & a 4 foot fence?

LirW

Knine wrote: »

Seriously? For a half hours exercise a day & a 4 foot fence?

I made the experience with labs that they adapt to different lifestyles a lot easier than many other breeds.

Also what about a Goldie?

Meeeee79

Ok, OP has added a few requirements since I posted my suggestion of a lab! A 4ft fence is not a good idea for any dog in my opinion. Neither is 30 min exercise per day. You have already made the mistake with one dog and had to give it up so think long and hard about the commitment a dog takes. If they dont get sufficient exercise they will cause trouble as they will have excess energy to burn and be bored staying alone for 5 hours a day. Also, your suggestion of a collie makes me wonder how much you understand dog breeds! Collies are highly intelligent dogs with bounds and bounds of energy, definitely not fair on the dog and your 4ft fence would prove no problem to a collie!

Dyr

If you're not used to dogs don't get a lab, the amount of labs out there that are a nightmare because people think they're low maintenance is crazy. It's a big dog that needs a lot of exercise.

I've had a shiba for about 13 years. Strong prey drive, majorly contrary around other dogs, headstrong and sensitive. They are a handful and its part of their charm.

tk123

LirW wrote: »

I made the experience with labs that they adapt to different lifestyles a lot easier than many other breeds.

Also what about a Goldie?

I have two retrievers and they need more than 30 mins a day. Yes they'll sleep all day and get fat if they don't get that but what's the point in having a dog then if you don't have time to walk it and interact with it. Wandering around a garden isn't interacting or stimulation imo. Also they're a breed prone to joint issues so I wouldn't be running them either.


OP I think you'd be best to foster/rescue because you have the safety net of being able to give the dog back if it doesn't work out. They'll also match you with a suitable dog.

Bells21

Just a note on mini schnauzers, a 30 min walk won't suffice for the majority of them! And they a very good dog to alert you i.e. they do enjoy a good bark, so if they don't get enough exercise this will lead to problem barking. They also like to be at the centre of a family and family activities. I understand that you say it's for 5 hours that they will be left alone but that's not taking into consideration the times you spend away from the house when you're shopping, going for a day out or ferrying kids to and from activities etc.
There is a mini schnauzer rescue so perhaps you could contact them and outline your desires and see if they think a mini schnauzer would be a best fit for you.

Lumen

OK, well it seems like the toughest requirement I have is leaving the dog alone for 5 hours, 4 days a week (I work from home on Friday).

TBH it's probably a bit longer than that since we're out the house at 08:30 and not back until 2pm, so that's 5.5 hours.

I'd hoped that bringing this down from 9 hours (which is what it was the last time we tried this) and having access to a large garden (in which I could construct a secure run) would make having dogs more doable, but I'm getting the impression (also from talking to dog owners) that this isn't the case.

Are dogs just not suitable for working people, even part-timers? Is it the continuous interaction with the alpha that they need?

Lumen

I suppose the other option is day care. This place (mentioned in another thread) would be in between our house and the childminder's, so she could in theory drop him off and pick him up around the school run on Tue and Thu, which would cut down his alone periods to 2 days per week.

http://thedoggielodge.ie/doggie-day-care/

sillysmiles

Lumen wrote: »

OK, well it seems like the toughest requirement I have is leaving the dog alone for 5 hours, 4 days a week (I work from home on Friday).

TBH it's probably a bit longer than that since we're out the house at 08:30 and not back until 2pm, so that's 5.5 hours.

My personal opinion is that a lot of dogs (not pups) would be fine being left for 5 hours per day once they had a good walk in the morning.

Myself and my partner work full time. The dog gets 30-40 mins walk in the morning and 45-60 minutes in the evening, is inside all day while we are gone, generally sleeping and spends the evenings with us. This situation works for our guy, but would not suit all dogs and from my pov thats not breed specific.

LirW

Lumen, I know people working part time and leaving the dog alone for 4 - 5 hours. What they do though is exercise and them before and afterwards. Also all of them live in apartments and every dog living like that can handle it very well. That said these are grown, trained dogs that get the physical and mental exercise they need and you also can't do this with a puppy straight away because staying on their own needs to be trained properly.

I wouldn't focus that much on breed X but more on finding a dog that suits your lifestyle.

Lumen

I'm an early riser and would love some company and exercise before I leave for work, so that wouldn't be a problem.

We're planning on getting the dog over the summer when the kids are off, so that it will have a solid 2 months of full time training and adaptation. I fear that won't be enough though. Maybe I'll need to adapt my schedule for the second half of the year to work from home more.

So if it's more about the dog than the breed, how do I proceed? Get a slightly older rescue dog that wants a quiet life?

The rescues seem to be full of greyhounds and restricted breeds, neither of which would be my choice given the cat and my dislike of powerful dogs.

LirW

Doesn't necessarily have to be an older dog, but maybe one that's out of puberty. When this happens varies between them, some breeds tend to develop later. Lots of dogs are out of the worst when they are 1 - 2 years old. When they got some basic training they're usually trained to wee outside, walking on a lead and maybe staying on their own.
If 2 months are enough or not, nobody can tell you that. It's alright with some dogs, some need a lot longer, it really depends.
In general the younger the dog and the more inexperienced the owner is, the more potential to get them into bad habits. That's the reason why I personally would always recommend a dog that has passed the 1 year mark. Also because I found training puppies a nightmare, my current one was the worst one ever, is the loveliest nutjob now.

I'd start with getting in touch with SPCA of your area and rescues. Take your time to pick the dog, this is not something you should do overnight, it's going to be part of your family for the next decade or so.

Meeeee79

Lumen its definitely doable for working people to have dogs ans there are thousands of families around the country that have. In an ideal world a dog wont be left on its own, will get hours of exercise every day and will constantly be stimulated enough to not get bored but the reality of it is this is unrealistic for most people and I hope the comments haven't put you off as having a dog is so fulfilling!

I suppose the point I was trying to make is that just make sure you are prepared. Dog behaviour isn't necessarily breed specific so it really can be a bit of trial and error getting the dog settled in and working with your lifestyle. My only fear was that you already got a dog and gave it up so if you get another dog you have to stick with it until everything settles down.

My 2 dogs didn't mature until they were about 2 or even older so its a long haul!

As others have suggested a walk in the mornings on days the dog will be left alone and maybe the dog daycare once or twice a week. I would be cautious with rescues with young children, you never know what they have been through but a rescue centre will have all the dogs well assessed and will know what will suit your family (or more like what dog your family will suit!)

3dogs

I can't comment on the cat side as my 3 hate them but I will say I have 3 very high energy dogs ( 2 JRT and a collie cross) and I work full time. I get up at 5.30 every morning and take them out for a good 40 minute walk, when I get home they are into the van and we go to the river or the beach where they get at least an hour off lead full on mad dog time. I also do agility training a couple of times a week and my spare time revolves around them. I got all of mine when they were young enough and they are all very happy. 
They are a big commitment but well worth it

Bells21

It can be doable, we work also and our two dogs stay inside. Someone is home for an hour at lunch and then the other is home shortly after this. A shorter walk in the morning, longer one in the evening. We do agility also and at the weekends we tend to head off somewhere for a ramble. We also do lots of fun training and have plenty of puzzle/problem solving toys.
I'm a teacher so when we got both dogs when I was on holidays, I was around to house train, settle them in etc as they were both puppies when they arrived.
If you are going down the puppy route just be aware that they will need more time to be house trained and socialised etc. If not, a rescue might be able to pair you with a dog that is unlikely to have separation issues or who may already be used to a routine of being alone for a few hours.
It is an adjustment to everyone's routine and a lot of effort is required but it is well worth it.

kylith

Not all greyhounds are unsafe with cats, many of the ones in rescue are there because they don't have the prey drive necessary for racing. They don't take an awful lot of exercising either. Talk to a rescue; one of them could be perfect for you.

The Red Lad

After reading your situation I can't recommend a cocker spaniel enough they really are an amazing breed and are quite small to medium sized but pretty much fits what your looking for I've had cockers 20 plus years now

Knine

The Red Lad wrote: »

After reading your situation I can't recommend a cocker spaniel enough they really are an amazing breed and are quite small to medium sized but pretty much fits what your looking for I've had cockers 20 plus years now

Again a breed that need far more exercise then the OP is hoping to provide. Also a lot of grooming needed.

I would highly recommend a greyhound.

aonb

The TEMPERAMENT of the dog you get is probably far more important than the breed. A dog alone for 5 hours should not be a problem as everyone agrees. The dog will sleep the entire time you are out, then exercise and family interaction, and all should be good.

Just a few points - I think if the family are genuine dog lovers, prepared to have the dog as part of the family, indoors and interacting all day long, then thats half the battle. If the family is an active one, the dog can be dragged out for walks, popping out to the shop, in/out of the car to go here/there etc. A dog that is treated as part of the family is a happier dog imo.

I work with a rescue. I would recommend that you seriously consider going to your nearest shelter, and walking the dogs there for a few weeks. Let your family interact with dogs, and see if you are interested in the commitment. We have walkers come to us to walk our dogs every week, after they found that yes they love dogs, but dont want one in their lives yet. We have walkers that come to us to walk our dogs, who fall in love with one dog and take them home. We have had walkers who foster for us, and sometimes fail as fosterers Go to a rescue/shelter and see if any of the dogs there tug on your heartstrings - could be a match made in heaven. The rescue folks will tell you if a dog is cat friendly.

cocker5

The Red Lad wrote: »

After reading your situation I can't recommend a cocker spaniel enough they really are an amazing breed and are quite small to medium sized but pretty much fits what your looking for I've had cockers 20 plus years now

As a cocker owner myself for the last 12 years - I'll agree they do make fabulous dogs! Great personalities etc.

But they def require a lot more exercise than the OP has posted they wish to provide. Plus fencing is too low in my opinion for a medium dog or larger.

Plus a good amount of grooming and they can suffer from separation anixety (as can any dog but cockers adore their humans).

OP I'm going to be honest and say you have a lot of 'requirements' for the dog you want .. but in reality it's mostly pot luck and how you treat your dog and look after then is what counts.. to be honest IMO (not trying to be harsh) having a dog is about having a dog not ticking all the boxes you think you want when getting a dog.

Getting a puppy is extremely hard work (not one I would sign up to again to be honest) and I think you mentioned you already rehomed another dog - personally I wouldn't get another one. That's just my opinion.

La.de.da

I would say contact or drop by your local rescue.
They will most likely have a dog with the temperament to suit your lifestyle.

As someone else said I wouldn't be too focused on a specific breed, even within a breed of dog there are exceptions ( I have 2 jrts one is a lazy sod, the other has mental energy,)

Some of the aul mixed breed mongrels can be the easiest most loyal dogs.


Good luck in your search.

Zapperzy

Just to point out that nobodys mentioned it yet but a pup won't be fit for a 5km run until it's fully grown. This can be up to 2 years for larger breeds. Even then I'd be hesitant to run long distance regularly on tarmac or concrete if you go for a breed prone to joint problems as you'll be asking for problems later in life.

It's just something extra to factor in if running is part of your routine.

Lumen

cocker5 wrote: »

OP I'm going to be honest and say you have a lot of 'requirements' for the dog you want .. but in reality it's mostly pot luck and how you treat your dog and look after then is what counts.. to be honest IMO (not trying to be harsh) having a dog is about having a dog not ticking all the boxes you think you want when getting a dog.

I'm just trying to make an informed decision about an expansion of my family, I know it's not like buying a new kitchen appliance.

Which is why I'm here, drawing on all of your experiences and fine advice.

Ms Doubtfire1

well, as I said before..i think the most practical breed for you is a staffie.
They are lazy buggers but can run for a long time. Don't need to though.They do need exercise and lots of love...and they are a really good family dog.:-)

Knine

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

well, as I said before..i think the most practical breed for you is a staffie.
They are lazy buggers but can run for a long time. Don't need to though.They do need exercise and lots of love...and they are a really good family dog.:-)

They are a great family dog but not for inexperienced owners imo & a staffie would be bouncing off the walls with only a half hour walk.

Lumen

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

well, as I said before..i think the most practical breed for you is a staffie.
They are lazy buggers but can run for a long time. Don't need to though.They do need exercise and lots of love...and they are a really good family dog.:-)

They're a restricted breed though, right? Which means you have to muzzle them in public.

Lumen

Knine wrote: »

They are a great family dog but not for inexperienced owners imo & a staffie would be bouncing off the walls with only a half hour walk.

On the half hour issue, I think I'm just going to up my expectations of exercise to half an hour morning and evening.

Whatever about the dog, my wife and I both need it TBH.

Knine

You mentioned hound breeds, have you thought about a Beagle from show lines, very pleasant little dogs, great with children, not so good off the lead though. Would like a decent amount of exercise & could definitely run 5k.

Is there any other breeds that you like?

Ms Doubtfire1

Lumen wrote: »

They're a restricted breed though, right? Which means you have to muzzle them in public.

thats true but you should be using a muzzle hey can breathe through anyways.

Lumen

Knine wrote: »

You mentioned hound breeds, have you thought about a Beagle from show lines, very pleasant little dogs, great with children, not so good off the lead though. Would like a decent amount of exercise & could definitely run 5k.

Is there any other breeds that you like?

Basenji, fox hound, harrier, beagle, that sort of thing. I'd love a greyhound. They all look amazing, really handsome dogs.

I've read that hounds are harder to train than sheepdog types.

LirW

Sheepdogs have other downsides though.
They are quite easy to train because they are smart and most of them have this so-called "Will to please" ingrained.
But once they have a certain amount of stimulation they demand that, a life long. Of course, again it depends on the dog, but my family has a couple of Aussies and they definitely do have some not so nice sides. Also they want to be kept fit and have a very high need of exercise, physically and mentally.

I personally know a Corgi owner who was blinded a bit by how cute they look. He gives this dog the training he needs and has a good relationship with him but the truth is he's a very complicated dog, so is the whole litter.
Just an example that looks can blind you easily to get something that doesn't suit your lifestyle.

But I'm positive, the right dog for you will come along!

Knine

Lumen wrote: »

Basenji, fox hound, harrier, beagle, that sort of thing. I'd love a greyhound. They all look amazing, really handsome dogs.

I've read that hounds are harder to train than sheepdog types.

Basenji, harrier & Fox Hounds are for more experienced homes. Foxhounds & Harriers do not do well as pets. They really like to work.

Show line Beagles make great pets if you don't mind them not being great off lead. There are lots of Greyhounds in rescue. Maybe you could foster one with a view to keeping, your 4 ft fencing would need to be addressed. Hound Breeds are not as easy to train as the working/herding breeds.

Ms Doubtfire1

Lumen wrote: »

Basenji, fox hound, harrier, beagle, that sort of thing. I'd love a greyhound. They all look amazing, really handsome dogs.

I've read that hounds are harder to train than sheepdog types.

A greyhound is a couch potato and sprinter. but, maybe the right lurcher cross? can't leave them outside though(won't need to either - they are perfectly happy to sleep for 22 hours a day). They would be ideal...and they are so deserving and funny and loving and one of the most abused breeds in Ireland...(yes I am owned by a lurcher and thus biased).Mine would moist certainly be able to do a 5k but - he has the stamina for that. But not sure he'd like it. But ..ah well, I just LOVE their goofiness.:p

LirW

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

A greyhound is a couch potato and sprinter. but, maybe the right lurcher cross? can't leave them outside though(won't need to either - they are perfectly happy to sleep for 22 hours a day). They would be ideal...and they are so deserving and funny and loving and one of the most abused breeds in Ireland...(yes I am owned by a lurcher and thus biased).Mine would moist certainly be able to do a 5k but - he has the stamina for that. But not sure he'd like it. But ..ah well, I just LOVE their goofiness.:p

This sums up why I'm never going to get a smart dog again Next dog is deffo a lurcher.

tedpan

With kids, I'd recommend getting a dog that doesn't shed hair. I have two old English Sheepdogs, they might be too big for what you're looking for, but cleaning compared to my cocker is a doddle.

What about a Bichon or if you don't mind dog hair, a cocker?

Lumen

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I called <snip> and they said the 4ft fence wouldn't be a problem with the right size and temperament of dog.

I'll pop in to them in early June and see what they have that's a good fit.

Ms Doubtfire1

Lumen wrote: »

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I called <snip> and they said the 4ft fence wouldn't be a problem with the right size and temperament of dog.

I'll pop in to them in early June and see what they have that's a good fit.

don't forget wicklow Pound.It's a high kill pound....:-(. 2 lurchers in there now...:(

kylith

Lumen wrote: »

Basenji, fox hound, harrier, beagle, that sort of thing. I'd love a greyhound. They all look amazing, really handsome dogs.

I've read that hounds are harder to train than sheepdog types.

You will not tire out a sheepdog type. Definitely not with 30mins, probably not with 5k, even if they get that daily. They will drive you up the wall. Any that I've known has no off switch.

Latatian

You can teach them to have an off switch. But you do have to TEACH the off switch. Other dogs have it naturally. And the second you look like you want them 'on' again they are back 'on.'

boomerang

Lumen wrote: »

Basenji, fox hound, harrier, beagle, that sort of thing. I'd love a greyhound. They all look amazing, really handsome dogs.

I've read that hounds are harder to train than sheepdog types.

If you'd like a dog that is:


Placid
Gentle with children
Has minimal exercise needs to the point of laziness
Doesn't tend to pull on the lead
Clean and non-shedding
Not a barker
Exceptionally healthy as a breed
Quietly loving


Then you're looking at a greyhound! They are a SUPER family pet. I rescued one and I wouldn't swap her. They are all this and more. But there are things to take into consideration.

By law they must be kept on a six foot leash in public places.

Because ex-racers are used to the company of other dogs they can suffer a bit of anxiety in the beginning if left on their own. You need build up the amount of time they spend on their own very slowly.

Depending on the individual dog, they may have a strong prey drive towards cats and towards other, smaller breeds of dog. This varies between dogs. Many racers end up in rescue because they were an abject failure and had no chase instinct! Rescues will know the nature of the dogs in their care. My lady is brilliant with ALL dogs of every shape and size and I also easily trained her to live peacefully with my two cats - who are now the boss of her! Cat introductions need to be done carefully though.

They need to be kept warm and ADORE their comforts so if you don't want a dog that sleeps on the couch and sneaks up onto the beds for a snooze, don't get a grey!

Vel

4 ft fence is way too low for a greyhound or lurcher in my opinion.

ShaShaBear

Definitely agree that a greyhound or lurcher type would be best suited to what you are after.
But I saw back a few pages you mentioned something about the dog spending time with their "alpha"?
If that's the stuff you've been reading, I advise you start your research from the beginning before you go anywhere near a rescue.

I can't speak for many of the breeds you like, but I can tell you now to forget about a collie. They are by and large absolutely unsuitable to have around kids. I have two toddler girls and a collie I rescued at 4 months and interaction between them now nearly 3 years later is still heavily supervised and limited. He tries to herd, nip and bowl them over constantly. Any remotely athletic collie will straight up laugh at a 4 foot fence and anything other than day-long marathons and constant mental stimulation for a lot of them (there are exceptions in all breeds) will leave them totally unsuitable to being left alone indoors

You mentioned building a run outside. I don't know if that's where you plan on leaving a dog for 5 hours or not, but a greyhound likely won't tolerate that. They're awful sensitive souls