Alfa 159 "Sold as seen". Trouble?

acri

Hi guys. I'm popping into The Garage in Harold's Cross later this evening to view this Alfa 159.

Here's the thing: last week it was listed for ?3700, said they'd let me have it for ?3200. Then yesterday it pops up again in a new ad (same garage) for ?2950 and a "Trade Sale, Sold as Seen" disclaimer. Are these enough alarm bells for any of you to walk away? Are these even alarm bells?

I've been dreaming of 159's (literally. It's weird) for a while and I'm afraid I'm going to let my heart overrule my head and cloud my judgment. I know the gearboxes (M32) are a problem point in these early Alfa's and chances are I won't really get to try out 5th and 6th around Harold's Cross. Anything else I should look out for (apart from the obvious)? Am I overthinking things? Is there any point in asking before seeing the damn thing? Anyone have any dealings with this garage before? Who are we? Why are we here?

Thanks.

biko

Probably a trade-in they have no clue about whether it is a gem or not.
If they sell it to you then they have to adhere to general dealer guidelines anyway.

Do you know of any local Alfa mechanics that could check it out for you?
For Alfas there are dedicated sites where members sell their cars, I suggest you consider buying from an enthusiast.

acri

biko wrote: »

Probably a trade-in they have no clue about whether it is a gem or not.

Oh jesus, don't be giving me hope.

biko wrote: »

Do you know of any local Alfa mechanics that could check it out for you?

Unfortunately I do not. Thanks for the link though. If I can't find a 159 soon, I think I'll try that 166 in the meantime.

bazz26

If the car is all singing and all dancing as described in the advert then why isn't the garage willing to stand over it in the form of a warranty? The fact they are selling it sold as seen to the public would make me think they have no confidence in the car or know there is something wrong with it. Also if your buying "sold as seen" then why bother buying from a dealer at all? What advantage is there in buying this way over a private buyer?

acri

bazz26 wrote: »

If the car is all singing and all dancing as described in the advert then why isn't the garage willing to stand over it in the form of a warranty? The fact they are selling it sold as seen to the public would make me think they have no confidence in the car or know there is something wrong with it. Also if your buying "sold as seen" then why bother buying from a dealer at all? What advantage is there in buying this way over a private buyer?

Simply the price. I am not seeking out a dealer, I just like the look of this particular 159. The ad says all of those lovely things, but the rapid price drop so soon after it's first listing, along with this new "Sold as Seen" has me gunshy.

I've never dealt with a dealer, so I don't know if my cynicism is getting in the way of a good thing.

bmwguy

Potentially clocked would be my fear. 5500 kms a year on a diesel is very very low. But might not be, looks OK from pictures.

Sofiztikated

The last 2 stamps in the book look to be written by the same almost running out blue pen, and the stamps transferred both transferred ink to the opposite page in similar fashion.

Might mean **** all, but it's just what jumped out at me.

And tax for a month and test for 2? I'd go look, but eyes wide open and all that.

bmwguy

Cheap car at the end of the day, 100 quid to a mechanic you trust for an assessment and if it checks out and you like the car, it's good value. Would much prefer leather in it though that suede isn't that nice I had it in an alfa 156 before. Funny enough not many come with leather. And like BMW M Sport and Audi S Line, I wouldn't buy anything except an Alfa Ti model. Transforms the look of the machine, but that's just me.

Del2005

bazz26 wrote: »

Also if your buying "sold as seen" then why bother buying from a dealer at all? What advantage is there in buying this way over a private buyer?

If there turns out to be something wrong with the car you have more chance of getting satisfaction from a dealer than a private sale. Unless the buyer signs for a known issue you have consumer laws to protect you when buying from a dealer.

acri

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I'd go look, but eyes wide open and all that.

Speaking of which, I know to check for milky dipstick, signs of oil in coolant, squeaky suspension, wear on the inside of the tyres, exhaust smoke colour. What are giveaway signs the gearbox is on the way out?

By the way, am I absolutely bananas considering an 11 year old diesel?

jimmycrackcorm

bazz26 wrote:

If the car is all singing and all dancing as described in the advert then why isn't the garage willing to stand over it in the form of a warranty? The fact they are selling it sold as seen to the public

Is it legal for a garage to sell it without normal recourse to consumer rights?

bmwguy

By the way, am I absolutely bananas considering an 11 year old diesel?[/quote]

That's why it is under 3000 euro. It's 11 years old. Considering a new Alfa is bananas. All you could lose is 3000. Get 2 years out of that, which you will, and you are doing OK.

I normally buy 6-10 year old cars and have done OK with that.

ptyloch

Google TI Autos in Dublin, they are among the best alfa specialists in the country, see if you can bring the car over to them and get it checked over?

ba_barabus

Alternatively pop around the corner, pay a bit more and buy mine which has had all the gearbox work done and a fully stamped up (and receipted) service history

quadrifoglio verde

I don't like trade sales from garages. It makes me wonder what they're hiding.
Steering racks and gearboxes are the issue on these. Watch out for groaning/grinding steering from the rack.
Regarding the gearbox, this link here sums it up quite well
https://www.eco-torque.co.uk/single-post/2016/12/02/M32-GEARBOX-Guide-To-Faults-Fixes

If you want a cheap alfa, that 166 in south Dublin has been babied and the owner is a gent.
The previous owner thought he was Michelangelo, but the real beauty of a 166 is inside while cruising. And not from 2 ft looking at paintwork.


Or you could buy Ba Barabus's 159. I think its been his most reliable car :pac:
And it has been well minded.


I will say, while the 159 is nice to look at, the 166 will be more fun to drive.
I currently have a UK imported 159 with the same engine and gearbox. its on 152K miles and the last 10K miles have been flawless from it.
Take it out for a blast, bring it down the m50 and see what its like. You should know quite quickly if its good or bad by how it drives

ba_barabus

Gearbox noise in mine was clearest in 5th and 6th but had become audible in 1st and 2nd before I got it refurbished. You could hear it clearly by pressing on and then lifting off in 5th and 6th. I was told 1st and 2nd gear were going due to swarf.

Wear on the front inner tyre edges is standard and won't tell you much about the suspension wear. Knocking and squeeks will however. Just be careful of a loose undertray which will produce a similar sound however.

As regards QFs comment, mine has indeed been the most reliable car I've owned and I've owned enough. And most enjoyable.

acri

ptyloch wrote: »

Google TI Autos in Dublin, they are among the best alfa specialists in the country, see if you can bring the car over to them and get it checked over?

Is it common practice to take a car from a dealer and get it checked by a specialist elsewhere, or am I misunderstanding something?

ba_barabus wrote: »

Alternatively pop around the corner, pay a bit more and buy mine which has had all the gearbox work done and a fully stamped up (and receipted) service history

Do you have a link?

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

If you want a cheap alfa, that 166 in south Dublin has been babied and the owner is a gent.

I was considering this if I can't find a motor by tomorrow night. I'm in South Dublin too, which helps.

AvonEnniskerry

The nct is nearly up on it. Why isn't it being renewed? If they thought it would pass it would be sold with a fresh nct for a slightly higher price...

acri

RIGHT! So, I went in to have a gander this morning.

Exterior is near spotless. I'd well believe the miles given the condition. Same for the interior. Pleasantly surprised by the suede, it's much nicer than I thought it would be. The engine ticks over real smooth, no smoke out the back, oil is black but with no milky residue. Coolant is consistent colour.

Took it out for a good fifteen minutes around the area and got to go through all of the gears. Gear changes are a little heavy, but I've been driving a 1.2 nearly new Clio for the past 18 months so I'm used to light gear changes. 3rd is a bit clunky. But there was no movement from the stick in any gears and heard no crunching or grinding during shifting. Same for the suspension and steering, not a peep. Gonna take it on a 100km round trip this afternoon to really put it through it's paces.

Not out of the woods yet, the engine light "popped on yesterday" and he assures me it's just a sensor but I have it booked in for a top-to-bottom service. I'll relax a bit once it's been properly looked at.

But yeah, very happy. Bought it. Even if there's a few bits that need doing, I still think I got a good price. Gonna give it a good scrub this afternoon. Thanks a million for all of your input, it gave me loads of ammo heading in.

CalamariFritti

Sold as seen, NCT not renewed, engine light, 'only a sensor'. Mmmh. I hope you know what you're doing.

acri

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Sold as seen, NCT not renewed, engine light, 'only a sensor'. Mmmh. I hope you know what you're doing.

I do not. But we'll see.

ptyloch

Congratulations mate! Well wear!

They're a lovely car to be in. Hope it serves you well!

Trojan

I those grey Alfa 159s look super. Best of luck with it, drop back in here and let us know how you got on in a month or two.

acri

Thanks man. Yeah, I was gonna update when I get feedback from the service and again with the NCT. If I'm made a fool of sure learn from my mistakes etc.

CalamariFritti

Yes sorry didn't mean to come across as negative. Best of luck with it. I'd say you'll be grand. Fine looking car, always had a soft sport for 159 especially for the sportswagon.

GavMan

Bring it to TI Autos for it's service. Gerry will give you the full rundown on what needs attention and what that engine light really is. I have a 147 and they are the only garage I would let service it.

acri

Anybody see that 159 in the Bangernomics thread today? The one that's identical to mine in almost every way but for a grand less? Yeah, my brother bought it.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't filled with envious rage.

quadrifoglio verde

acri wrote: »

Anybody see that 159 in the Bangernomics thread today? The one that's identical to mine in almost every way but for a grand less? Yeah, my brother bought it.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't filled with envious rage.

Has your family gone from having zero Alfa's to two in the space of two days?
If so that's hilarious!
You should see whose proves to be more reliable :pac:

acri

SO! Thought I'd give a quick update on my "risky" 11-year-old, low-mileage-especially-for-a-diesel, sold as seen, suspiciously low priced, short NCT'd Alfa for anyone interested.

There were one or two issues, but not much. It needed a set of rear springs and a DPF de-clogging. Two of the tyres had pretty bad damage on the side wall, probably from hitting a kerb. That's it. Full service and everything sorted. Gear change worries were just me being paranoid. David at TI Autos said the car is in great condition and should pass the NCT no problems. And it did!

Speaking of TI Autos, I don't think I've met nicer people in general, let alone a garage. It's so great to have a mechanic that will happily talk with you about your car and answer questions you might have. Super service.

So yeah, very happy. Buying 10+ year old cars over the past few years has taught me one thing: brand reputation doesn't mean sh*t. Service history and community input is what's important. Tax & NCT helps too, I suppose...

After a quick polish. Well, four hour wash, polish, and wax...

davo2001

Well wear, congrats!

Gravelly

acri wrote: »

SO! Thought I'd give a quick update on my "risky" 11-year-old, low-mileage-especially-for-a-diesel, sold as seen, suspiciously low priced, short NCT'd Alfa for anyone interested.

There were one or two issues, but not much. It needed a set of rear springs and a DPF de-clogging. Two of the tyres had pretty bad damage on the side wall, probably from hitting a kerb. That's it. Full service and everything sorted. Gear change worries were just me being paranoid. David at TI Autos said the car is in great condition and should pass the NCT no problems. And it did!

Speaking of TI Autos, I don't think I've met nicer people in general, let alone a garage. It's so great to have a mechanic that will happily talk with you about your car and answer questions you might have. Super service.

So yeah, very happy. Buying 10+ year old cars over the past few years has taught me one thing: brand reputation doesn't mean sh*t. Service history and community input is what's important. Tax & NCT helps too, I suppose...

After a quick polish. Well, four hour wash, polish, and wax...

Looks fantastic in fairness. Have hankered after an Alfa for a long time but don't have the balls to risk one.

theskibag

Very nice, looks great

Trojan

That's awesome, nice job!

Out of interest, was it just the sensor?

How's your brother's going?

acri

Trojan wrote: »

That's awesome, nice job!

Out of interest, was it just the sensor?

How's your brother's going?

Thanks!

That engine management light disappeared after about 150km of mostly motorway driving. Maybe it cleared out the dpf a bit?

Brother's car is still going strong, hasn't had to do a thing to it...yet. It doesn't feel as powerful as mine, looks like there might be a bit of a turbo leak. His could be an 8v either, not sure. Also, he's started to notice a bit of a whine in 6th, so that might be worth looking at. The interior is slightly different (my centre console has a nice texture to it, his is flat) and he has more driver's seat manipulation, but my paint is better :cool:

Here they are together. From 0 - 2 Alfas in two days.

ba_barabus

A bit of whine in 6th.........gearbox bearings are going.

acri

Yeah, that's the fear. He said it's just noticible in the last week or so. Any idea how precient the issue is?

ba_barabus

acri wrote: »

Yeah, that's the fear. He said it's just noticible in the last week or so. Any idea how precient the issue is?

I had mine done at 205k km. It's pretty common but could occur at any mileage. Get it sorted as if the bearing fail its a very expensive job as they wreck the casing. Naas gearbox center were great and gave good advice.

quadrifoglio verde

ba_barabus wrote: »

I had mine done at 205k km. It's pretty common but could occur at any mileage. Get it sorted as if the bearing fail its a very expensive job as they wreck the casing. Naas gearbox center were great and gave good advice.

On a 2K car I'd run it into the ground to be honest

grogi

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

On a 2K car I'd run it into the ground to be honest

It is only 2k because of the reputation. If it gives no trouble, it is excellent automobile.

ba_barabus

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

On a 2K car I'd run it into the ground to be honest

grogi wrote: »

It is only 2k because of the reputation. If it gives no trouble, it is excellent automobile.

That decision would depend on the owner. Mine covered 50k kms before I took action. Apparently they can rattle away for a while with no issue or else just go. If they go however they will ruin the box resulting in a bigger bill. I took action when I realised how big the bill would be if I ruined my box. Bear in mind however mine is a much newer 159.

It's really the choice of the owner. I can see both sides of it really.

grogi

ba_barabus wrote: »

That decision would depend on the owner. Mine covered 50k kms before I took action. Apparently they can rattle away for a while with no issue or else just go. If they go however they will ruin the box resulting in a bigger bill. I took action when I realised how big the bill would be if I ruined my box. Bear in mind however mine is a much newer 159.

It's really the choice of the owner. I can see both sides of it really.

One could risk it and hope to get a second hand gearbox when sky collapses. Unfortunately almost all of them will have same issue...

quadrifoglio verde

grogi wrote: »

It is only 2k because of the reputation. If it gives no trouble, it is excellent automobile.

I agree I have one! It's been excellent and it was cheap to buy.
Spec is savage on it.
However rebuilding a gearbox isn't cheap and as Ba Barabus said, he got 50k out of his before fixing the box.
It's a sub 2k bangernomic. A rebuild can run close to that.
If the box goes on mine (it was rebuilt 2 years ago by the previous owner) it won't be getting rebuilt again. It'll be driven until it blows as financially it's not economically viable.

The gear change in them is **** though compared to the 156 6 speed

grogi

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

It's a sub 2k bangernomic. A rebuild can run close to that.

It can be done under €1000 with warranties etc.

I agree - if that's just a whine, I'll let it whine. The moment the stick starts its dance, it is time...

ba_barabus

grogi wrote: »

It can be done under €1000 with warranties etc.

I agree - if that's just a whine, I'll let it whine. The moment the stick starts its dance, it is time...

It can't be done properly for that no matter what you're told.

And it won't dance, it'll just go BANG