We drive solar

isnottheword

Came across this interesting solution => www.wedrivesolar.nl

Unfortunately, it's all in dutch - but you can get a grasp of what it's all about by sticking that url into google translate.

Essentially, it's a car sharing system built around solar power, EV's - and with a vehicle to grid (V2G) element to it. Deal includes car, agreed annual mileage, insurance, tax, etc for a monthly charge. Perhaps if there's a dutch speaker amongst us, he/she can explain it better?

Calahonda52

Given how well we share free CP's.....

unkel

Pretty much what you are saying, isnottheword. It's all a bit woolly and the V2G bit is a bit vague. How can you power your house when the car is shared by 4 people living in different locations?

Deal works out at about €165 per person per month incl. VAT, all inclusive (fuel, maintenance, tax, insurance, everything) that is sharing a brand new 41kWh Zoe between 4 people. Which of course is only a fraction of the total cost of ownership of even a worthless banger that is barely driven. It's looking like most people who have signed up have got rid of their previous car. You book the car via an app on your phone and the app also doubles as the key for the car (it opens and locks the car)

Personally I'm very interested in V2G. My car is in my drive most of the time even during the day (I work from home quite a lot) and I have a free 28kWh battery at my disposal (car). I wouldn't mind investing in a solar PV array on my south facing roof, if it meant I could both power my car and get most of the electricity to power my home, from solar (stored in the cars battery). Maybe we need a dedicated thread for that?

cros13

unkel wrote: »

Maybe we need a dedicated thread for that?

This one will do:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=102575440

I've already given my V2G opinion in it :pac:

unkel

Not quite the thread I had in mind. I'd be interested in what is possible for the car to actually power the house during the day (and the grid to power the car at night rates)

Solar PV can be thrown in the mix, but not necessarily.

cros13

V2G is a non-runner. The potential cost of the cycles on your expensive low-weight per kWh battery in your car and the capital cost of the inverters make it impossible to make pay.

A 13.2kWh Powerwall 2 is ~€6k inc VAT and includes both the bi-directional inverters and batteries... for similar money as just the V2G inverter.
It's optimised for storage use and attached to the house 24/7.

Plus a low state of charge on the powerwall at the end of the night would be a good thing.... the prospect of an unexpected trip when your V2G system has half drained your car's battery is a bad thing.

unkel

This seems like a great idea. Buy cheap night rate electricity, store it in your free battery (car), then use it for the house during the day when the car is just sitting there

cros13 wrote: »

the capital cost of the inverters make it impossible to make pay.

So the V2G inverter is crazy money. As in like €5k? :eek: Any reason these are so costly? And do you need one of them (whatever they are) to do the above?

cros13 wrote: »

The potential cost of the cycles on your expensive low-weight per kWh battery in your car

Not worried about that, battery has a 8 year warranty

cros13 wrote: »

Plus a low state of charge on the powerwall at the end of the night would be a good thing.... the prospect of an unexpected trip when your V2G system has half drained your car's battery is a bad thing.

Not so worried about that either. I do have another car (that I could use for emergencies) and I do have a fast charger within a few km of my home. And of course even a full days use of electricity for the house (10kWh at most) would only deplete a third or less of the battery capacity of the car, leaving plenty for emergencies

Dexter1979

It's a neighbourhood car sharing service.. Getting very popular in Holland.. This particular one one would install their own charge points in a neighbourhood which are all powered by solar.. The aim is to have 1000 charge points with 1000 cars and about 10000 solar panels in one city!! And they will be looking into using this as the basis for a V2G system then as well so they can be used as a local smart grid.. Unsure what the progress is on it.. They're using Renault Zoe's and have both 22 and 41kWh cars..

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

This seems like a great idea. Buy cheap night rate electricity, store it in your free battery (car), then use it for the house during the day when the car is just sitting there



So the V2G inverter is crazy money. As in like €5k? :eek: Any reason these are so costly? And do you need one of them (whatever they are) to do the above?



Not worried about that, battery has a 8 year warranty



Not so worried about that either. I do have another car (that I could use for emergencies) and I do have a fast charger within a few km of my home. And of course even a full days use of electricity for the house (10kWh at most) would only deplete a third or less of the battery capacity of the car, leaving plenty for emergencies

The Leaf is technically capable of two way electrical supply and is being used so in Japan


I have a problem with nomenclature, V2G describes a systems where car batteries are grouped together to supply the grid

this isnt a V2G application

I agree with Cros, a better bet is a dedicated battery bank, while a minority might have a car siting in front of a house idle in daylight hours , thats not a common experience

secondly of course your battery warranty does not cover V2G , and its not technically possible with European EVs at present , hence you cannot comment about warranty.

personally I think FIT is the answer not batteries

unkel

I agree. But will be ever get a FIT (again)?

And yeah I was googling a bit last night and it seemed there were some CHAdeMO V2H (is that better? ) solutions in Japan going back as far as 2011!

cros13

unkel wrote: »

So the V2G inverter is crazy money. As in like ?5k? :eek: Any reason these are so costly? And do you need one of them (whatever they are) to do the above?

The cheapest price I've heard for a 7kW V2H (since we're using the proper terms) inverter (7kW is the same output as the powerwall) was in the region of ?8-10k.

unkel wrote: »

Not so worried about that either. I do have another car (that I could use for emergencies) and I do have a fast charger within a few km of my home. And of course even a full days use of electricity for the house (10kWh at most) would only deplete a third or less of the battery capacity of the car, leaving plenty for emergencies

Are you heading to the Lucan rapid tonight by any chance? It wasn't working yesterday and I had to limp to Blanch. I'm planning to hit there again tomorrow but its still marked as up on the map.

unkel wrote: »

I agree. But will be ever get a FIT (again)?

If battery prices hit $100/kWh is anyone going to care?

If batteries are cheap enough for mass market EVs there's no need for them to be pulling double duty.
I wouldn't rule out future solutions when EV mainstream, but I'd say those would be in addition to a home battery and home DC charging.

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

I agree. But will be ever get a FIT (again)?

And yeah I was googling a bit last night and it seemed there were some CHAdeMO V2H (is that better? ) solutions in Japan going back as far as 2011!

V2H sounds good, yes they have been playing with it in Japan for some time

nissan are releasing their own "powerwall " in the Autumn

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

Ar you heading to the Lucan rapid tonight by any chance? It wasn't working yesterday and I had to limp to Blanch. I'm planning to hit there again tomorrow but its still marked as up on the map.

I can have a look this evening if that helps you?

The current cost of electricity makes non of this viable.

A large saving is already been made by not paying for diesel, especially for me driving 28-30 K Kms a year and for those driving more.

unkel

Did a few sums last night and you're right, it wouldn't make sense for most people. If a powerwall was €2k + installation + VAT, the payback time for moving all my dayrate electricity to nightrate with the powerwall would still be 10+ years

And worse if I added solar PV.

Cheaper again would be just solar and feeding the non-consumption to the immersion, or just give it back to the grid for free

Cheapest just to pay the damn night rate

I'm always amused with people who pay for Solar PV and end up dumping the excess.

In Germany my partner's Parents have about 14 Kwp of solar PV and can generate up to 75 Kwh on a good sunny Summers day, no way in hell they could store all of this, it's not possible with any size battery that wouldn't be twice the size of the house. I'm talking about their entire daily excess over the brighter months, so , they sell it to the grid and buy it back in Winter for the storage heaters, a brilliant solution.

The FIT is rather generous so too as far as I remember the grant for installation, but it drove up the cost of electricity for everyone which isn't really fair on those who are struggling to pay bills. Electricity there is expensive.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

I can have a look this evening if that helps you?

Had a look and the Lucan charger is working fine.

3 Leafs in the queue in front of me though. On a weekday. At 9PM in the evening :eek:

And only 1 can charge at the same time, which is ridiculous for a fast charge point. I've said it before, we've far too many SCP sitting empty doing nothing and although we only have 2000 EVs in this country, there is already a shortage of fast chargers (that everyone obviously wants to use). Needless to say I wasn't going to queue up, just went home. Imagine if I had wanted to travel to Galway that night. Would have had to wait the guts of 2 hours before I would be ready to go

@any politician listening - please bring in more fast charge points, or charge us money or both if you have to. This shortage is not going to help the uptake of EVs!

We've a shortage of people using the SCP's because the FCP's are in locations far too convenient to hang around and also we've a lot of 3.3 Kw Leafs for which the 22 Kw points are too slow.

We need AC and DC and it's crazy to think otherwise. AC for when you don't need to charge so fast and DC when you do.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

Had a look and the Lucan charger is working fine.

3 Leafs in the queue in front of me though. On a weekday. At 9PM in the evening :eek:

And only 1 can charge at the same time, which is ridiculous for a fast charge point. I've said it before, we've far too many SCP sitting empty doing nothing and although we only have 2000 EVs in this country, there is already a shortage of fast chargers (that everyone obviously wants to use). Needless to say I wasn't going to queue up, just went home. Imagine if I had wanted to travel to Galway that night. Would have had to wait the guts of 2 hours before I would be ready to go

@any politician listening - please bring in more fast charge points, or charge us money or both if you have to. This shortage is not going to help the uptake of EVs!

There were 4 before you got there! In fairness I wasn't looking to charge (and didn't) but was meeting a friend. Yes, we need more FCPs... The fleet size is steadily increasing but the number of FCPs isn't.

If i was looking to charge though i would have asked anyone behind me if they needed it more than i did. For now this is the only way to go (ie be considerate).

Although the chap that was charging when you were there was in a 24kw Leaf, had charged to 97%, lived locally and didn't really understand how charging worked. Difficult to compensate for that scenario.

n97 mini

cros13 wrote: »

The cheapest price I've heard for a 7kW V2H (since we're using the proper terms) inverter (7kW is the same output as the powerwall) was in the region of ?8-10k.



Are you heading to the Lucan rapid tonight by any chance? It wasn't working yesterday and I had to limp to Blanch. I'm planning to hit there again tomorrow but its still marked as up on the map.



If battery prices hit $100/kWh is anyone going to care?

If batteries are cheap enough for mass market EVs there's no need for them to be pulling double duty.
I wouldn't rule out future solutions when EV mainstream, but I'd say those would be in addition to a home battery and home DC charging.

The status of the Lucan FCP hasn't updated on the ecars map for quite a while. After 2 days out of action it's back working.

unkel

n97 mini wrote: »

Although the chap that was charging when you were there was in a 24kw Leaf, had charged to 97%, lived locally and didn't really understand how charging worked.

I had met him before there and the cable was stuck in his car. I think it was my very first fast charge and I hadn't a clue how to help him, I posted about it here on the forum

Nice meeting you - with hindsight