Audi starts taking deposits tomorrow for the e-tron quattro

cros13

...in Norway... http://www.bilnorge.no/artikkel.php?aid=47846

20,000NOK (~€2150)

95kWh liquid-cooled pack and 500km NEDC rated range (probably 350-400km EPA/real).
320kW tri-motor AWD with a boost mode to 370kW for short periods
0-100km/h in 4.6 seconds
210km/h speed limiter
150kW CCS
4.88 meters long, 1.93 meters wide and 1.54 meters high
615L boot
~€70-80k

Delivery Q2 2018

Evd-Burner

Jesus that thing is some machine!

Sabre Man

The articicle doesn't mention a price. Where did you find it? Is that ~€70-80k in Ireland or Norway?

Nice but as always priced well beyond the price most people can afford and this is done so to ensure low volume sales so they can continue to make huge profits on their diesel rubbish.

n97 mini

Why would I buy this over a Tesla?!

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

Why would I buy this over a Tesla?!

Because it's not a Tesla?

Because it's an Audi?

Because Audi are proven as a long term profitable company, likely to keep their focus and not end up bankrupt or swallowed up and stripped by a new owner?

Because it's a nicer car from a manufacturer with a history of producing cars, not electronics/electrical/alternative energy systems primarily?

There are a whole host of reasons.

I've been in a model S a few times in Holland now. Very underwhelmed by the experience. Interiors are wearing very badly compared with any Audi/BMW/Merc of similar cost and spec.

No doubting Tesla are doing great things with EV engineering to a point, but with Hyundai/Nissan/VW/Toyota/BMW/Audi all producing superb EV's, I don't think I'd pick a Tesla over the German's product unless I really liked the Tesla as a car builder, which I don't.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Nice but as always priced well beyond the price most people can afford

If people did the sums they would be surprised. If you do big miles it could compare to a diesel car about 20k cheaper to buy, like say a BMW 520d

Interested to know where you are getting the €70-€80k from cros13. I can not see that car retailing for €70k here. Would barely believe €80k after all incentives...

cros13

Sabre Man wrote: »

The articicle doesn't mention a price. Where did you find it? Is that ~?70-80k in Ireland or Norway?

I asked someone in Audi AG what the invoice price from the factory might be (about 6 months ago) and they said roughly the same price as a Q7.... given the difference in VRT and the grant + credit it could be cheaper in Ireland.

n97 mini wrote: »

Why would I buy this over a Tesla?!

If the above holds it will be €25-40k cheaper than a Model X and slightly quicker too. Slightly smaller... but Tesla has no SUV options below the Model X for the next four plus years. Interior will probably be better than the base X too.

Scottie99

JayZeus wrote: »

Because it's not a Tesla?

Because it's an Audi?

Because Audi are proven as a long term profitable company, likely to keep their focus and not end up bankrupt or swallowed up and stripped by a new owner?

Because it's a nicer car from a manufacturer with a history of producing cars, not electronics/electrical/alternative energy systems primarily?

There are a whole host of reasons.

I've been in a model S a few times in Holland now. Very underwhelmed by the experience. Interiors are wearing very badly compared with any Audi/BMW/Merc of similar cost and spec.

No doubting Tesla are doing great things with EV engineering to a point, but with Hyundai/Nissan/VW/Toyota/BMW/Audi all producing superb EV's, I don't think I'd pick a Tesla over the German's product unless I really liked the Tesla as a car builder, which I don't.

Ive decided at this stage not to go for the Tesla3, I've got my deposit back. Build quality has been very poor, I just don't see them improving it with the 3 in the short term. I'll be looking at the regular manufacturers for the Mrs next car.

cros13

In fairness they've improved build quality a lot. Especially over the last two years.

I have a model 3 reservation down but I want a long range SUV and a Model X would be out of my price range esp. with the options I'd consider required.
The Model Y is too far from production.

I'm seriously considering the I-Pace... as for the e-tron... I've never liked Audis.

KCross

Scottie99 wrote: »

Ive decided at this stage not to go for the Tesla3, I've got my deposit back. Build quality has been very poor, I just don't see them improving it with the 3 in the short term. I'll be looking at the regular manufacturers for the Mrs next car.

I don't think I'd chance a Model 3 until it's proven either.

n97 mini

JayZeus wrote: »

Because it's not a Tesla?

Tesla is the most desirable EV brand at the moment. Think Apple, but EVs. Sure, people buy Samsungs etc., but they're followers.

JayZeus wrote: »

Because it's an Audi?

Not an Audi fanboy, but sure there are those who would buy it for the badge.

JayZeus wrote: »

Because Audi are proven as a long term profitable company, likely to keep their focus and not end up bankrupt or swallowed up and stripped by a new owner?

Is this a serious comment? The same Audi that is the A in VAG... diesel peddler, emissions cheater, hoodwinker of European governments etc.

JayZeus wrote: »

Because it's a nicer car from a manufacturer with a history of producing cars, not electronics/electrical/alternative energy systems primarily?

And to an extent they're bound by slow moving corporate car company thinking. They're experts in diesel engines, a skill that will soon be redundant but they've too much investing in it to kill it now. Tesla have no such shackles.

JayZeus wrote: »

I've been in a model S a few times in Holland now. Very underwhelmed by the experience. Interiors are wearing very badly compared with any Audi/BMW/Merc of similar cost and spec.

Ludicrous mode is underwhelming? As regards interiors, as a long-term owner of Japanese cars I place more emphasis on mechanical reliability than plush interiors. Nice dash isn't much use to you if your DMF is gone (again).

JayZeus wrote: »

No doubting Tesla are doing great things with EV engineering to a point, but with Hyundai/Nissan/VW/Toyota/BMW/Audi all producing superb EV's, I don't think I'd pick a Tesla over the German's product unless I really liked the Tesla as a car builder, which I don't.

Out of six brands you mentioned, only two of them German! VAG and BMW. Not overwhelmed by their offerings. The best offerings in the non-70k+ segment at the moment are probably from GM (hey look, another US company!) and then Hyundai, with Nissan close behind.

Quazzie

n97 mini wrote: »

Ludicrous mode is underwhelming? As regards interiors, as a long-term owner of Japanese cars I place more emphasis on mechanical reliability than plush interiors. Nice dash isn't much use to you if your DMF is gone (again).

So you place more emphasis on mechanical reliability, yet you're backing up Tesla who are only in the business a wet week, and thus can prove nothing. Good logical thinking right there :rolleyes:

Also there is no DMF in an EV.

n97 mini

Quazzie wrote: »

So you place more emphasis on mechanical reliability, yet you're backing up Tesla who are only in the business a wet week, and thus can prove nothing. Good logical thinking right there :rolleyes:

Also there is no DMF in an EV.

No, I'm challenging the view that German cars are mechanically very reliable. They're not.

Aw sh?te, no DMF in EVs. Must tell Tesla

I clocked up 100,000 "miles" on my B6 2003 A4, 200,000 Miles when I sold it, terrific car. My Brother has not had a single issue with any of his either and he's had 3 A4's, A5, A6 and back to A4.

Audi make great interiors.

Quazzie

n97 mini wrote: »

No, I'm challenging the view that German cars are mechanically very reliable. In my opinion They're not.

FYP

Also. What's mechanics got to do with EV, or are you questioning Audi's running gear and drive train? Do you consider Quattro to be subpar?

cros13

Quazzie wrote: »

So you place more emphasis on mechanical reliability, yet you're backing up Tesla who are only in the business a wet week, and thus can prove nothing. Good logical thinking right there :rolleyes:

Any EV can be pretty much counted on to automatically have higher reliability than a combustion engined vehicle, simply on the basis of reduced mechanical complexity. Tesla have had the Model S platform on the road since 2012 with the exception of drivetrain issues in the first 1-2 model years and the Takata airbag stuff, no major issues. It hits the headlines/blogosphere when it happens, but issues are not really that common. Consumer Reports got their scoring system thrown out of whack by pre-emptive and precautionary repairs that other carmakers don't do.

What BMW, Audi and Mercedes do better are things like interior fit and finish which is definitely a step above Tesla. Tesla Have improved a lot (esp. with the premium pack / next gen seats) but they are not there yet.

All of them are certainly better than the Leaf or ioniq with their plastic for carpet. lol

To be fair, you don't know what you're writing about.

If I was looking to spend the kind of money a Model S sells for, I'd think again and go German. Why pay for a car like that with an interior that holds up as well as a Daewoo 15 years ago? Ooooh, look, I even managed to pick another US owned brand there, just for you.

If I was looking to buy a Model 3, I'd go look at a Japanese/Korean/German offerings. Better value for money all things considered. The Ioniq has turned my thinking around when it comes to that segment. I'd have one in the morning.

In either case, you'll get a better built car from a proven car manufacturer, not an industrial/domestic electrical and alternative energy systems builder. Do not underestimate the commercial risk that persists for Tesla's car manufacturing business. They have scarcely turned a profit, require massive ongoing investment and are already losing market share to very capable competitors which they will NEVER win back.

You'll also have a better experience in terms of dealer/network access when required, in a car that will be built well enough to stand up to long term usage, when things like build and materials quality really start to count. Chances are that when you need to get access to service, you'll be certain to find a main dealer for a company still in business. Tesla? Hmmm. They've the potential to be something like Saab, the way things are going. It's not 5 years ago. The model S isn't new. Other players have caught up and in some cases overtaken them, while they struggle to manage their finances and secure the investments they need to stay in business.

You make various references to things like badges, emissions, apple, samsung and other junk that has nothing to do with a practical comparison of what's on offer from Tesla vs a premium German automobile maker. Get real for a minute, will you?

Likewise, rubbish about how you look for mechanical reliability, then dismiss the decades of extensive testing that have gone into the development of various car manufacturers products, quality control, materials and technologies, writing about Tesla having no shackles in that regard, as though you think that argument holds water?

I can't take seriously the argument you're trying to make. Who in their right mind would buy a Tesla when there are so many better choices available today?

I can tell you right now; nobody who sat down and thought about it.

Quazzie

cros13 wrote: »

Any EV can be pretty much counted on to automatically have higher reliability than a combustion engined vehicle, simply on the basis of reduced mechanical complexity. Tesla have had the Model S platform on the road since 2012 with the exception of drivetrain issues in the first 1-2 model years and the Takata airbag stuff, no major issues.

So they have the motors which are pretty basic, and then all they had to do is get the power from there to the wheels, and they made a balls of that?? One job, and they screwed up?? Sounds like Audi might be a much better option than Tesla if that's anything to go by.

n97 mini

JayZeus wrote: »

To be fair, you don't know what you're writing about.

<snip>

Tesla vs a premium German automobile maker

Ya think?

Honestly you'd be better off on the main motors forum pedalling the same old sh?te about German manufacturers being God's gift to motoring mankind.

Tell Tesla no-one's buying their cars. I'm sure they'd love to hear from you.

cros13

Quazzie wrote: »

So they have the motors which are pretty basic, and then all they had to do is get the power from there to the wheels, and they made a balls of that?? One job, and they screwed up?? Sounds like Audi might be a much better option than Tesla if that's anything to go by.

Only impacted a small number of early RWD cars and every car that could possibly be affected had the entire drivetrain replaced with the redesign at their next scheduled inspection. Customers were generally happy and the majority bought a second Tesla.
Same with door handles. Some issues with the initial three-motor design and when the replacement design became available (in April 2013) Tesla started replacing handles as a precautionary measure.

JayZeus wrote: »

To be fair, you don't know what you're writing about.

If I was looking to spend the kind of money a Model S sells for, I'd think again and go German. Why pay for a car like that with an interior that holds up as well as a Daewoo 15 years ago? Ooooh, look, I even managed to pick another US owned brand there, just for you.

If you are basing your judgement of the interior on the dutch taxis...stop. Those are almost always base interior cars, the premium interior and next-gen seats are a substantial step up. The base interior was not designed to compete with Audi et. al... it was designed to bring the base price of a car with what was at the time a €35-50k battery pack down to an affordable entry point. The typical customer for the base model S is coming from a Toyota Prius. That's not the case in Ireland (due to the tax situation it's priced far above it's usual european entry price of ~€60k).

Quazzie wrote: »

In either case, you'll get a better built car from a proven car manufacturer, not an industrial/domestic electrical and alternative energy systems builder. Do not underestimate the commercial risk that persists for Tesla's car manufacturing business. They have scarcely turned a profit, require massive ongoing investment and are already losing market share to very capable competitors which they will NEVER win back.

Most of the existing automakers don't really have the in-house engineering or manufacturing talent to build long-range EVs. Even BMWs EV team disintegrated after they postponed follow on vehicles to the i3 and they've had to rebuild it (their PHEVs use bought in powertrains from ZF).

Marc Tarpenning (Co-Founder Tesla, left 2008) does consulting for the major german automakers now. He said last year that at the time he left Tesla in 2008 the prevailing wisdom in the company was that the rest of the automakers were 10 years behind Tesla, and after eight years of consulting for them his opinion was that they were further behind now than Tesla thought in 2008.

With the exception of Daimler (and recently VAG) none of the automakers have any idea where they're even going to get batteries from and that's the most expensive / most important component in the car.

Quazzie wrote: »

You'll also have a better experience in terms of dealer/network access when required, in a car that will be built well enough to stand up to long term usage, when things like build and materials quality really start to count.

Dealers have proven so far to be nothing but a drag on EVs. They add a margin which bumps up the retail price and are unable/unwilling to sell the cars. They'll eventually catch on or go out of business but at the moment It's like the situation with pubs and craft beers in the 00s, they'd stick a tap in the corner, never try and sell it or tell anyone it's there and then remove the pump because "there's no demand".

The skills required to sell in a new market like EVs are very different from the skills salespeople in a mature market seem to have. They don't have to educate consumers about basics like fueling ICE vehicles. And determining whether a vehicle is suitable for a customer is required and has an outsized impact on future sales. ICE vehicle sales is about unit shifting and keeping your margin up/stealing sales from the guys down the street. EV sales are about consumer education and evangelism and stealing sales from the ICE salesman you work beside for what are currently lower margin vehicles....which the owner of the dealership wouldn't be happy with.

Quazzie wrote: »

Other players have caught up and in some cases overtaken them, while they struggle to manage their finances and secure the investments they need to stay in business.

Which players? With the exception of less than a hundred total R8 e-trons and Mercedes SLS AMG ED, no long range EV without a Tesla badge has shipped (with the possible exception of the GM Bolt...which is facing battery supply shortages already and doesn't directly compete with any of Tesla's offerings). And even Daimler, who are in the best position with battery supply will be unable to match Tesla's production rate for years.

I'm fairly sure Jaguar, Mercedes and maybe even VAG will be able to sell every single unit of the EVs that are due off their lines from now until 2025. I just don't believe they'll be able to meet demand until then.

jackofalltrades

Deleted User wrote: »

Nice but as always priced well beyond the price most people can afford and this is done so to ensure low volume sales so they can continue to make huge profits on their diesel rubbish.

Does any car manufacturer have the capacity to produce a high volume EV car at the moment?
Audi's strategy makes sense, they don't have the capacity, so they sell a car at the higher end of the market.
Where they can lose less money than they would if the sold the car for half the price.

I don't think Nissan have any restrictions, or Renault but probably could cause problems if every manufacturer would change to EV tomorrow but that's hardly likely. It suits car manufacturers not to produce EV while they make so much money from ICE tech. The will make Ev when they see money to be made.

ED E

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Does any car manufacturer have the capacity to produce a high volume EV car at the moment?
Audi's strategy makes sense, they don't have the capacity, so they sell a car at the higher end of the market.
Where they can lose less money than they would if the sold the car for half the price.

Have a look at Cros' post here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103310576

Nobody has nearly enough of a cell supply to swallow a real chunk of the ICE market. Even with the gigafactory its still small percentages of annual car sales.

I can't remember what company it was but there is a company looking to mine lithium at Mount leinster...... Could be disastrous to the environment there.

n97 mini

Deleted User wrote: »

I clocked up 100,000 "miles" on my B6 2003 A4, 200,000 Miles when I sold it, terrific car. My Brother has not had a single issue with any of his either and he's had 3 A4's, A5, A6 and back to A4.

Audi make great interiors.

While I don't doubt you had good experiences, they are anecdotal. JD Power 2016 reliability survey. Ironic that Skoda build better VAGs than VAG!