English Springer Spaniel - near giving birth

lakill Farm

First time poster in this section so be gentle.

I have a English springer spaniel (Millie) , she will be 2 years old in early May. (DOB May 2015) She is pure breed and in pup to another pure breed springer who we have since June 2011. All are vaccinated and I had my vet check her out about 3 weeks ago while here on a farm visit. These dogs are pets and not worked but have free access during daytime to unlimited exercise

So Millie is heavy in pup and we have a welping box organised with access to red lamp organised if needed.

What food would you suggest I feed her after she has given birth. currently on an average enough food, but dogs in very good condition and any other suggestions to get me and her and her puppies over the first hours and days. Im fully new to puppies but not livestock


Finally, I normally have a mobile groomer call by twice a year to groom the dogs and clip them. Normally spring and autumn. I have postponed the spring groom. Say if she had puppies on 1st May, what date would it be ok to have her groomed. will I leave it the full 8 weeks till weaned or sooner ok? I don't want to distress her or the puppies.

muddypaws

The breeder that your got your dog from should be your mentor through all of this.

I would recommend that you buy The Book of the Bitch ASAP

SillyMangoX

Just on the grooming point of view, don't groom til the pups are weaned. Can be distressing to both mother and pups to be apart that long, and strange smells from shampoo after grooming can cause the pups to not feed as well as they usually find the teats through smell.
Hope it all goes well, make sure to post pictures!

Knine

Do you know her due date?

You will need the following

Emergency vet & enough money for a C Section if something goes wrong. Have the vet sorted before it becomes an emergency. A small animal vet.

As above The Book of the Bitch. It is like the Bible only not full of crap

A supply of puppy milk & feeding bottles in case something goes wrong

Loads of bedding & newspapers.

A small box & heat pads to put puppies in while new puppies are arriving.

Weighing scales, gloves, lubricant, thermometor.

ID bands for puppies

Nutri Drops - life saving puppy drops which can save a weak/exhausted puppy. Order online.

Ice Cream, something with lots of calcium is handy for birthing.

Large amounts of caffine for you & nerves of steel as you could be up with her for a couple of nights.

If she is not inside, then some form of baby monitor/camera to keep an eye on her, pig rails are needed for Springers.

Get her used to the whelping area now. The heat lamp will be needed especially at night. Keep that male well away from her & new puppies.

I normally change mother's to be onto puppy food in the last couple of weeks & I feed freely once litter is on the ground. Heavily pregnant bitches need small regular feeds. Always access to fresh water.

You should tidy up & trim her back legs/female area now yourself as it means much less hassle aa birthing is pretty messy.

Looking after new puppies is a whole new chapter. The best of luck.

volchitsa

Just from curiosity, what are pig rails, and why do sprinters need them more than other dogs?

(Also who is the ice cream for, the mother?)

And best of luck, OP - must be exciting!

Knine

volchitsa wrote: »

Just from curiosity, what are pig rails, and why do sprinters need them more than other dogs?

(Also who is the ice cream for, the mother?)

And best of luck, OP - must be exciting!

Once you go up to medium size dogs then there is the danger of mammy squashing puppies against the sides of the whelping box. The pig rails help prevent that.

Ice Cream can help mothers whelp puppies.

lakill Farm

Farm vet does the dog vaccinations and examined her so C section should be ok there.

I was looking for a copy of the book of the bitch last night and going to local book shops later.

where would I get puppy milk? and nutri drops? online probably isn't an option

If i get badly caught , the vet is 4 mile one way (5 mins) and a friend who breeds dogs 7 mile the opposite way (he doesn't breed springer's)

Knine wrote: »

Do you know her due date?

You will need the following

Emergency vet & enough money for a C Section if something goes wrong. Have the vet sorted before it becomes an emergency. A small animal vet.

As above The Book of the Bitch. It is like the Bible only not full of crap

A supply of puppy milk & feeding bottles in case something goes wrong

Loads of bedding & newspapers.

A small box & heat pads to put puppies in while new puppies are arriving.

Weighing scales, gloves, lubricant, thermometor.

ID bands for puppies

Nutri Drops - life saving puppy drops which can save a weak/exhausted puppy. Order online.

Ice Cream, something with lots of calcium is handy for birthing.

Large amounts of caffine for you & nerves of steel as you could be up with her for a couple of nights.

If she is not inside, then some form of baby monitor/camera to keep an eye on her, pig rails are needed for Springers.

Get her used to the whelping area now. The heat lamp will be needed especially at night. Keep that male well away from her & new puppies.

I normally change mother's to be onto puppy food in the last couple of weeks & I feed freely once litter is on the ground. Heavily pregnant bitches need small regular feeds. Always access to fresh water.

You should tidy up & trim her back legs/female area now yourself as it means much less hassle aa birthing is pretty messy.

Looking after new puppies is a whole new chapter. The best of luck.

DBB

I would not be relying on a large animal vet to care for my small animal op, least of all my pregnant small animal.
Totally different fields of knowledge and skill.
Puppy milk and drops can usually be got in pet shops. You'll also need feeding bottles on standby, also available in pet shops.
The Book of the Bitch can often also be bought in pet shops. Agree with the above... You need to have it read before the pups arrive.

Knine

Forgot to mention that having your bitch groomed at a groomers will not put your puppies off feeding. Healthy puppies will suck on anything they can find including each other! However you would be at risk of bringing back infections etc to your puppies hence it is best to tidy her up at home.

lakill Farm

DBB wrote: »

I would not be relying on a large animal vet to care for my small animal op, least of all my pregnant small animal.
Totally different fields of knowledge and skill.
Puppy milk and drops can usually be got in pet shops. You'll also need feeding bottles on standby, also available in pet shops.
The Book of the Bitch can often also be bought in pet shops. Agree with the above... You need to have it read before the pups arrive.

vet is mixed practice and has done many sections for my friend .

boomerang

If your friend's bitches need many sections then they shouldn't be bred from.

Best of luck OP.

lakill Farm

boomerang wrote: »

If your friend's bitches need many sections then they shouldn't be bred from.

Best of luck OP.

he is a registered dog breeder. As I said in opening post, he doesn't have any springers or any dogs bigger than them handbag size dogs.

No puppies as of yet but she is starting to nest a little

muddypaws

lakill Farm wrote: »

he is a registered dog breeder. As I said in opening post, he doesn't have any springers or any dogs bigger than them handbag size dogs.

No puppies as of yet but she is starting to nest a little

That says it all I'm afraid. Easy to sell dogs, the puppy farmers delight. Being a registered breeder means nothing, the puppy farm in Cavan that has 300 breeding bitches is a registered breeder.

Ms Doubtfire1

so sad. When will people ever learn.

SillyMangoX

Knine wrote: »

Forgot to mention that having your bitch groomed at a groomers will not put your puppies off feeding. Healthy puppies will suck on anything they can find including each other! However you would be at risk of bringing back infections etc to your puppies hence it is best to tidy her up at home.

I have just today learned that the puppies not recognising the mothers scent is an old wives tale, I stand corrected! Learn something new every day

Knine

SillyMangoX wrote: »

I have just today learned that the puppies not recognising the mothers scent is an old wives tale, I stand corrected! Learn something new every day

I have found puppies sucking on an unfortunate male puppy's parts! They also have tried my adult male. You should see him running with 7 mini Borders after him.

muddypaws

muddypaws wrote: »

That says it all I'm afraid. Easy to sell dogs, the puppy farmers delight. Being a registered breeder means nothing, the puppy farm in Cavan that has 300 breeding bitches is a registered breeder.

I don't get the issue with farming dogs once they are being adequately looked after (fed, housed in clean sheds, medical treatment they require etc). We farm lots of animals in far greater numbers why should dogs be any different?

Knine

Johnathan Drab Equipment wrote: »

I don't get the issue with farming dogs once they are being adequately looked after (fed, housed in clean sheds, medical treatment they require etc). We farm lots of animals in far greater numbers why should dogs be any different?

Do you normally socialise your 300 cows & sheep & keep them in your sitting room & have them playing with your children?

tk123

Knine wrote: »

Do you normally socialise your 300 cows & sheep & keep them in your sitting room & have them playing with your children?

Avalynn Thoughtless Thesaurus has stated previous posts that his mammy doesn't allow animals in the house :P

Knine

Knine wrote: »

Do you normally socialise your 300 cows & sheep & keep them in your sitting room & have them playing with your children?

No but we never let dogs or cats in the house either nor do many people as they don't agree with it.

tk123 wrote: »

Apollo Red Paragraph has stated previous posts that his mammy doesn't allow animals in the house :P

Nor do I or many many other people, its not really relevant to this topic either or is the other post I quoted above to the question I posed.

Knine

Johnathan Drab Equipment wrote: »

No but we never let dogs or cats in the house either nor do many people as they don't agree with it.



Nor do I or lots of other people.

Who are these lots of people? Your fellow puppy farmers? I certainly don't know any.

Anyways hopefully the OP will come back here if they need any help or advice, I'm off out to walk my cows & bring my Parrotlet for a fly. Dogs are not Livestock.

Knine

Knine wrote: »

Who are these lots of people? Your fellow puppy farmers? I certainly don't know any.

Anyways hopefully the OP will come back here if they need any help or advice, I'm off out to walk my cows & bring my Parrotlet for a fly. Dogs are not Livestock.

All the people who keep outdoor pets, I know a lot of them and see it regularly with people I don't know also. My next door neighbour for instance has a 5 month old jack Russell who is outside all day and sleeps in the shed along with their other dog. I also think the op said is dogs are outdoor btw.

You have answered my question though more or less. Some people have forgotten dogs are animals is basically the answer. Don't know why I even thought I'd get a rational conversation on the question I asked.

DBB

Lads... Rein it in please.

To answer the question from a biological viewpoint, predatory species have never been successfully and ethically farmed/mass produced. Their psychological wiring, which is hugely different to that of prey species, makes them entirely unsuitable for high-intensity rearing.
Then, when it comes to switching on the necessary genes for them to develop behaviourally into animals that can dwell peacefully and cooperatively with humans, they must be handled, and exposed to the life they'll be expected to lead as an adult. I think it's universally accepted by behavioural scientists that this can't be achieved in a mass-production setting. At least, not without hiring a lot of staff and providing a long list of resources, which would make the enterprise unprofitable.
It's clear too that dogs reared in a quiet, usually rural setting feature in vastly greater numbers of problem behaviour cases as adults, than do dogs raised in small numbers in a busy, often urban or suburban home.

DBB

Apollo Red Paragraph wrote: »

You have answered my question though more or less. Some people have forgotten dogs are animals is basically the answer. Don't know why I even thought I'd get a rational conversation on the question I asked.

Nox001,
This is your final warning.
Every time you post here, you soapbox about how you think dogs should be kept, despite all the evidence presented to contravene your opinion... So, it seems to me and the other mods of this forum that you post as you do in the full knowledge that you're going to cause a row. Every single time you contribute to a thread, there's an argument.
Secondly, you are all-too-quick to resort to dissing the users, and ethos of this forum. If you don't expect to get the reply you seem to want, and if you think so little of this forum, then why are you using the forum? Again, it seems you're using it to cause arguments.
So. It stops now. We will be watching your posts very closely from now on. If we see any more of the above, you will be permanently banned.
The forum mods are sick of cleaning up the mess you make, every time you post.
Finally, do not post in this thread again.
Thanks,
DBB

kylith

Anyway, OP, firstly, bring them into the house and get them used to all the things there as soon as possible, or even have the bitch whelp in the house so they're exposed to everything from day 1.

Secondly: photos of puppies please!

Murrisk

DBB wrote: »

It's clear too that dogs reared in a quiet, usually rural setting feature in vastly greater numbers of problem behaviour cases as adults, than do dogs raised in small numbers in a busy, often urban or suburban home.

Half of Ireland is rural, lots of it one-off housing. Lots of these one-off homeowners have dogs. The above-quoted assertion seems dubious. Maybe it has been shown in studies, I don't know, but it seems unlikely to me that a well-trained, well cared-for dog is more likely to have behavourial problems simply by virtue of living in a rural home as opposed to an urban one. It seems to contradict the rest of your post. High-intensity farms are obviously awful, but too quiet an environment is also harmful? I don't think dogs are the hothouse orchids you seem to consider them! In a loving family, what difference would it make to a dog if there are near neighbours or not? You even seem to be saying that people should have more than one dog?

DBB

Murrisk wrote: »

Half of Ireland is rural, lots of it one-off housing. Lots of these one-off homeowners have dogs. The above-quoted assertion seems dubious. Maybe it has been shown in studies, I don't know, but it seems unlikely to me that a well-trained, well cared-for dog is more likely to have behavourial problems simply by virtue of living in a rural home as opposed to an urban one. It seems to contradict the rest of your post. High-intensity farms are obviously awful, but too quiet an environment is also harmful? I don't think dogs are the hothouse orchids you seem to consider them! In a loving family, what difference would it make a dog if there are near neighbours or not? You even seem to be saying that people should have more than one dog?

You have not read my post properly, and seem to be attributing things to my post that aren't there (not sure how you interpreted my post as saying that people should have more than one dog!)!
I specifically spoke of dogs reared in a quiet, rural environment. Specifically meaning pups, because we're talking puppy farms here.
To be more specific, pups raised in quiet homes up to the age of 8-16 weeks are far more likely to develop behavioural problems as adults due to lack of adequate socialisation and exposure to life.
I categorically did not and do not assert that living in a rural environment causes behavioural problems in adult dogs. My post is absolutely relating to the effects of puppyhood on adult behaviour, not adulthood on adult behaviour.

lakill Farm

update.

Millie gave natural birth this morning . Mom and puppies doing well. Im a nervous wreck

The book "The book of the bitch" one as suggested is a fantastic read. thank you

Thank you for all your help and suggestions.

Millie was born on 3/05/2015
Puppies 02/05/2017

exactly 2 years apart as leap year in between

DBB

Congratulations OP
We'll be awaiting photos now
How many pups did she have?
My pup's birthday is the same date as her mam's too, but 4 years apart

.......

This post has been deleted.

lakill Farm

ill take a few pics later in the week. Im trying to let Millie look after her puppies and me in turn look after her and them.

jimf

as somebody who has bred springers in the past they are usually great mothers but can be overly protective of there puppies after a few days

everybody have their own views on who and should not be allowed near the puppies my theory always was to let family members only interact for the first 3 weeks and kids are great to socialise them they have a way of doing it even the puppies seem to enjoy


oh by the way pictures please and loads of them

and another stock up on newspapers you will understand why when the pups go on solids and mammy decides ive had enough of this ok I will say it even if dbb will be after me schit

bye everybody ive enjoyed my time on the forum I feel a holiday coming on not

Knine

jimf wrote: »

as somebody who has bred springers in the past they are usually great mothers but can be overly protective of there puppies after a few days

everybody have their own views on who and should not be allowed near the puppies my theory always was to let family members only interact for the first 3 weeks and kids are great to socialise them they have a way of doing it even the puppies seem to enjoy

It is a crazy house here. Everyone interacts with mammy & new babies once the first 24 hours are over. We get lots of visitors too. I go by the comfort level of the new mammy.

lakill Farm

Mammy is doing a great job. She had 15 puppies. 3 delivered dead and runt died over night between 4am-6am.

I have the bitch and 6 puppies together at any one time, and swap in Team A and Team B of puppies every 2 hours. on change over every 4 hours I feed her a little, drink & out for a run etc.

Up every 2 hours is a killer but puppies are definitely thriving already and she is so content

sillysmiles

Can I ask is there a reason not to leave the 11 with her?

lakill Farm

sillysmiles wrote: »

Can I ask is there a reason not to leave the 11 with her?

Risk of smothering them and I want to make sure that they are all getting a chance to feed. so 2 groups means she can take care of them and feed them .

fingers crossed but she doing so well

Knine

Are you using pig rails? You need to make sure quality food & fresh water is available for your bitch at all times rather then every few hours. I normally don't separate but mark the puppies & weigh them each day.

jimf

pig rails are a great idea for a first time mum

they rarely if ever lie on the puppies the biggest danger I think is a pup getting squashed behind mam

if the remaining pups are all even I would have no problem letting mum do what comes naturally to her even with 11 she will do the rotating the more suckling the more stimulation for mum to produce milk

but watch closely for signs of eclampsia [milk fever] caused by the heavy demand on the body to produce milk can reduce the mothers blood calcium levels dramatically very fast

plenty of good quality food and plenty of clean water changed at least twice daily also space for mum to escape for a few minutes

jimf

Knine wrote: »

Are you using pig rails? You need to make sure quality food & fresh water is available for your bitch at all times rather then every few hours. I normally don't separate but mark the puppies & weigh them each day.

sorry knine I was typing the same time as you and nearly repeated most of your post

lakill Farm

Water is being replaced/ refreshed every 6hours . And then she walks over to the duck pond and drinks out of it. You just cant win :rolleyes:I have her on good quality nut and wet food and she has access to nut 24/7 with the water.

She has whelping rails in her box. and heat lamp above them

I didn't want to overwhelm the poor animal especially yesterday as she had put in a mega hard day. and I had seen somewhere the first 36hours are critical so I was trying to help her out. She is in fantastic form and im trying to get her out for a run around between most change overs.

Knine

lakill Farm wrote: »

Water is being replaced/ refreshed every 6hours . And then she walks over to the duck pond and drinks out of it. You just cant win :rolleyes:I have her on good quality nut and wet food and she has access to nut 24/7 with the water.

She has whelping rails in her box. and heat lamp above them

I didn't want to overwhelm the poor animal especially yesterday as she had put in a mega hard day. and I had seen somewhere the first 36hours are critical so I was trying to help her out. She is in fantastic form and im trying to get her out for a run around between most change overs.

No run needed. Just in and out to the toilet. I give mince, chicken & puppy milk to bitches also. Lambs milk for bigger breeds. Huge quanties of food will be needed by mammy. Be very careful separating as puppies need mammy to stimulate them for toileting which is why I leave all mine together. If you keep an eye for any bloated screaming puppies you should be fine. First worming should be at 2 weeks & clip nails at about 7 days old.

jimf

very good point re toilet stimulation jesus the basics we forget at times

my old springer jess used to move the pups from the back teats to the front every few minutes if I hadn't seen it I would find it hard to believe is it a myth theres more milk at the back than the front I wonder

and her grandmother used to come into milk when jessies mam had pups and suckle some of them nature is a great tool for sure

I miss having puppies around the place big time

Jayop

I'd never take on to do breed a litter because of the hassle (for want of a better word) of trying to find good homes for the pups, but I would love to do it at some stage. Maybe when I'm older myself and have more time on my hands, or when the kids are grown up I could think about it. Won't be happening with our current dog anyway.

The best of luck with everything OP. Have you people lined up for the puppies yet?

lakill Farm

small update.

Things are going great . All puppies are healthy and a few are opening their eyes today (day 15) . Bitch is feeding all 11 puppies herself.

the whelping box is fantastic idea. and I have since upgraded to a design between myself and a carpenter friend.

I will upload pics real soon when I find out how to upload them