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My invalid Fine thread

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  • 20-04-2017 2:08pm
    #1
    rocks1981
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭


    I have a full thread with irishrail on my twitter,
    https://twitter.com/Fergalkeating1/status/854954007898574849
    Feel free to give your opinions and comment and share my twitter. Short story is that i tapped on in coolmine, and the barrier opened at let me through (my wife was through a couple of seconds before me without issue), but when i got to Pearse it was not tagged on and i got a fine. 
    There is CCTV of me tagging on, I have received an image through a data protection request (they wont send me video) that seems to show me tagging on, but their RPU wont accept this as evidence. Also the data protection request shows that the only check they do, is to see if their machines are down. But their check was at least 30 minutes after i said i tagged on.


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    #2
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Your issue appears to be that you paid the fine. From their point of view that's an admission of guilt, so why would they spend any more time double-checking if the fine was valid?

    Which sounds unfair, but understandable when you consider that anyone could pay the fine and then claim they were wrongly fined, tying up their resources.

    Purely as a matter of interest, why did you pay the fine? You say "under legal threat", but if you were satisfied that everything was in order on your side and you had the CCTV to prove it, then why did you pay?
    I believe you entirely about what you say, I'm just very curious as to why you paid when you knew you were in the right and had the evidence to prove it?


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    #3
    rocks1981
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭rocks1981


    I left it to the last second to pay the fine. the problem is they have the CCTV, and they essentially say that they don't consider that as evidence. So they said they just kept sending me threats of legal action. I honestly believe that strictly speaking they could / would have enforced the fine under their rules in court. So my only recourse was to pay and attempt to inform people of the injustice in the hopes it changes things.


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    #4
    Pinch Flat
    Registered Users Posts: 7,761 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    I think it's been mentioned earlier that the burden of proof in these cases is "balance of probability".

    I had a situation at Coolmine a few years back. Got to the station and the ticket booth was closed on the city bound track. My annual commuter had just expired. It was pre-tagging on / off days. I got stopped at Pearse - it was still common practice to pay at your destination then, but the revenue guys were having none of it. I got a similar letter - they can appear very threatening. I sent them a letter quoting a few relevant sections in the bye-laws. Never heard anything back again.


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    #5
    rocks1981
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭rocks1981


    I'm thinking i should have posted in Boards a little earlier.


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    #6
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,087 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    If you had your Leap registered then you should be able to see when your card was used. Odd if it opened the barrier but didn't register a fare.


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    #7
    rocks1981
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭rocks1981


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    If you had your Leap registered then you should be able to see when your card was used.   Odd if it opened the barrier but didn't register a fare.
    That's kinda my whole point. it didnt register but the barrier opened.


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    #8
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Read the twitter "conversation" (pretty one sided).

    That's bad form from IE, but not unexpected.


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    #9
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Going by the twitter messages, i wouldn't have taken him serious either.

    What did the screen on the barrier say when you tagged on.? Did it say that it deducted the fare?.


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    #10
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Read the twitter "conversation" (pretty one sided).

    That's bad form from IE, but not unexpected.

    Where's the bad form.?. The person on twitter can only direct you to the relevant department or pass on any info on your behalf they can't amend anything for you.


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    #11
    rocks1981
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭rocks1981


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    n97 mini wrote: »
    Read the twitter "conversation" (pretty one sided).

    That's bad form from IE, but not unexpected.

    Where's the bad form.?. The person on twitter can only direct you to the relevant department or pass on any info on your behalf  they can't amend anything for you.
    The bad form is from IrishRail RPU. But its about customer service, and their twitter account has to deal with them treating customers badly, not ignore them.


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    #12
    rocks1981
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭rocks1981


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Going by the twitter messages, i wouldn't have taken him serious either.

    What did the screen on the barrier say when you tagged on.? Did it say that it deducted the fare?.
    At what point do you not take the twitter seriously? The point at which it gets farcical from the RPU response saying they would have looked into it more if they had to take you to court? 
    In my experience 
    • Once a barrier opens you go through it as you dont have much time. 
    • Unless checking your balance, you dont genrally look at what it says. 
    • There shouldnt be a case where the barrier opens, and your not tagged on. 


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    #13
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    rocks1981 wrote: »
    • Once a barrier opens you go through it as you dont have much time. 
    • Unless checking your balance, you dont genrally look at what it says. 
    • There shouldnt be a case where the barrier opens, and your not tagged on. 

    There is a scenario for this
    1. Someone going the opposite way tags on and as a result the gate opens, you think it is for you
    2. Irish Rail set the gate backwards, so it thinks the entry is exit and will deduct the full fare and then tag you out (it thinks you are leaving the station but never tag on at the start. Rare but it has been seen a few times


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    #14
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    rocks1981 wrote: »
    The bad form is from IrishRail RPU. But its about customer service, and their twitter account has to deal with them treating customers badly, not ignore them.

    He wasnt ignored.


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    #15
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    rocks1981 wrote: »
    At what point do you not take the twitter seriously? The point at which it gets farcical from the RPU response saying they would have looked into it more if they had to take you to court?
    In my experience
    • Once a barrier opens you go through it as you dont have much time.
    • Unless checking your balance, you dont genrally look at what it says.
    • There shouldnt be a case where the barrier opens, and your not tagged on.

    Thats not their response . RPU didnt respond on twitter and the graph thingy is not from them either.
    The barrier will only open if you have succesfully tagged on, you can also tailgate the person in front which will reopen the barrier if they are closing.
    You check the screen to see how much was deducted and to see if you tagged off or on.


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    #16
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,087 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    rocks1981 wrote: »
    That's kinda my whole point. it didnt register but the barrier opened.

    But if the fare hasn't been deducted from the card then you haven't paid, open gate or no gate. The RPU checks boil down to one thing; have you a valid ticket or pass when you are checked. If it didn't deduct a fare then you haven't paid for your travel; it's black and white from their end.

    Perhaps there was a fault but sending them a picture of your flowchart isn't really going to help get you your €80 back ;)


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    #17
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #18
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    the first thing that struck me was the possibility that the tag didn't work and you actually went through with your wife without realising it (ie the gate didn't actually open for you) . It's also possible that your tag didn't work, causes you to hesitate, and the guy behind you tagged on opening the gate.

    Hard appeal to win I would have thought.


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