New handicap systems on the way.....

Russman

http://www.golf.com/tour-news/2017/04/19/usga-ra-develop-single-world-handicapping-system

Just saw this earlier, apologies if there's already a thread covering it......

Title should read ".....on the way" sorry !! Mods can you edit if necessary please ?

Minderbinder

I never liked the idea of having a handicap and beating someone because I have a higher handicap even though I hit more shots than him. Does that ever feel like a real victory? I don't think so.

Would it not be better if clubs had some kind of league system where players of equal ability play each other and can be promoted/relegated or would that be too difficult to manage?

Russman

Minderbinder wrote: »

I never liked the idea of having a handicap and beating someone because I have a higher handicap even though I hit more shots than him. Does that ever feel like a real victory? I don't think so.

Would it not be better if clubs had some kind of league system where players of equal ability play each other and can be promoted/relegated or would that be too difficult to manage?

Well there are different handicap classes in almost all competitions, so you're really only competing against people in your own class, plus sometimes an overall prize.

Otherwise there would only be gross competitions and you would have a very small number of potential winners.

Jawgap

Minderbinder wrote: »

I never liked the idea of having a handicap and beating someone because I have a higher handicap even though I hit more shots than him. Does that ever feel like a real victory? I don't think so.

Would it not be better if clubs had some kind of league system where players of equal ability play each other and can be promoted/relegated or would that be too difficult to manage?

A victory is a victory - as long as you are honest about your handicap and haven't been building it then you've won fair and square. Plus in matches it's perfectly possible to be the lower handicapper, take more strokes than the higher handicapper, and still win the match. Likewise, in a stableford or v-par game someone can still take more strokes than you and still beat you.

The way I see it, the handicap is like a long run average that tells me exactly how I've been playing up to a point in time - but it is only indicative of how I might play in my next round. I might play to it, or above it or below it.....

.....and in a match, if I'm getting strokes then I'll work out on which holes I need to use them - I think that's just clever golf.

The league idea isn't a bad one but you'd need people to play strokes frequently and the beauty of the handicap is it allows people to dip in and out of the game as their circumstances allow, and for the game to be played across a range of formats etc - a league (or series of leagues over a season) might require a level of commitment a lot of players are not in a position to give.

Tilikum

Russman wrote: »

Well there are different handicap classes in almost all competitions, so you're really only competing against people in your own class, plus sometimes an overall prize.

Otherwise there would only be gross competitions and you would have a very small number of potential winners.

Different classes? I can't remember every playing in such a competition bar a senior/junior scratch that's on the same day.

Hoof Hearted2

Tilikum wrote: »

Different classes? I can't remember every playing in such a competition bar a senior/junior scratch that's on the same day.

Some clubs do 1 main overall prize and 2 or 3 category prizes based on CONGU category's and numbers actually playing the competition and breakdown of numbers in each category, it's actually an excellent way of leveling the playing field further, and another way is to have classes based on the distribution of numbers playing in each category so every class has a close to even amount of competitors.
I have also heard discussions that each of these category's/classes would be played off scratch, like a mini scratch cup every week, thus negating somewhat the power of the HC minders.
I think it's an excellent idea, but I can't see it been implemented in the majority of clubs any time soon, because "Paddy" would be up in arms, but it maybe implemented in the more progressive clubs, which are unfortunately far and few between.

OP I first said this worldwide HC change was in the pipeline about 12 months ago but the resident "experts" here, said it was not impossible and not going to happen, one wonders where these so called "experts" are now;).

martinkop

It will be interesting to see what system comes out of this, because they are very different currently...

Hoof Hearted2

martinkop wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what system comes out of this, because they are very different currently...

It will be the golf index system, like the one currently used by the EGU and USGA.

Russman

Tilikum wrote: »

Different classes? I can't remember every playing in such a competition bar a senior/junior scratch that's on the same day.

My bad, I assumed most clubs ran "Class" prizes based on handicap. Like, say, Class 1 might be scratch to 9, Class 2 could be 10 to 16 etc. etc. Obviously depending on the numbers in a club, the classes may replicate the CONGU Categories or just be slight variations. I think if our Class 1 was limited to Category 1 players we'd have a field of about 2 playing !

Russman

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

OP I first said this worldwide HC change was in the pipeline about 12 months ago but the resident "experts" here, said it was not impossible and not going to happen, one wonders where these so called "experts" are now;).

You did indeed, I knew I'd seen it mentioned somewhere in the relatively recent past alright !!

Russman

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

It will be the golf index system, like the one currently used by the EGU and USGA.

Funnily on some of the US sites they seem to think most of their system will be gone and all that will be kept is "slope". Then again, I had no idea they are able to count casual rounds and, from commens I've read, don't have to have the round attested to. I've no clue either way, but it should be interesting to see what they come up with. I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to pick some of the best elements of each and do something with them.

dizzy_87

Not sure if this info will help anyone here or not i might be abit off the mark but here goes, In australia were i have been playing my golf till recently they adopted there handicap system from the americans, the way the system works goes something like this you play 3 rounds of stroke play to get your original handicap, this is referred to as you AGU handicap, they then calculate the slope rating of your club/course and rate its diffuclty so a standard course is rated at 113 slope, every course gets rated and rated from the different tees as well so a course might be rated at 113 of the normal tees and say 118 of the back tips used on monthly medals of if you have different tees in winter the course could come down in rating to say 105 all this means is that your daily handicap can flucatute depending on which course you play and of what tees you play off. The idea being that someone who plays of 18 on a normal course will play off 15 at a easy course or maybe 21 at a hard course. This is supposed to even up competition when you play at different courses around the country, and i think works fairly well the confusing part of the handicapping system is the daily course rating which is how hard the course played on the day, from my experience no one i know can properly explain how this works there is a complicated maths formula used but its beyond me, again using a 18 handicapper as an example you can have a good round and score 38pts and you would expect that your handicap should drop because you played to a 16 handicap and beat your handicap but the daily course rating might come back and say that the course was playing 4 easier than par so you end up with a played to 20 instead and your handicap actually goes out, alternatively you might score 34 points and the DCR can come back as 3 over par so instead of a played to 21 you get a played to 17 and your cap can come down abit, so its rather confusing system your handicap is a average of your best 8 rounds out of your last 20, not sure if this is of any help to anyone but it you get the american handicapping system it might end up something like this

mike12

Is there a limit to the number of shots your handicap can go up in a year using that system, my best 8 rounds out of 20 have me gone from 13 to 17.

Hoof Hearted2

Russman wrote: »

Funnily on some of the US sites they seem to think most of their system will be gone and all that will be kept is "slope". Then again, I had no idea they are able to count casual rounds and, from commens I've read, don't have to have the round attested to. I've no clue either way, but it should be interesting to see what they come up with. I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to pick some of the best elements of each and do something with them.

Yes it'll be based on the slope golf index system, but it's safe to say that casual rounds won't count towards HC and all scores will have to be attested to. The details will need to be ironed out and you can be sure there will be "irish only" clauses in the finished article like there currently is in the CONGU system.

It's interesting to know from what I understand that before the CONGU Countries choose to use our current system, 3 of the 4 Countries had a preference for the GI system but the English golf union (which is the largest) essentially vetoed the others and pushed through the current system.

Russman

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

Yes it'll be based on the slope golf index system, but it's safe to say that casual rounds won't count towards HC and all scores will have to be attested to. The details will need to be ironed out and you can be sure there will be "irish only" clauses in the finished article like there currently is in the CONGU system.

It's interesting to know from what I understand that before the CONGU Countries choose to use our current system, 3 of the 4 Countries had a preference for the GI system but the English golf union (which is the largest) essentially vetoed the others and pushed through the current system.

Yeah, I read a piece before where it mentioned that the English union were opposed to going the "slope" route. From (very) vague memory I think it was something to do with links courses having no trees or being exposed to the wind or something - I could be remembering that incorrectly, but I think it was something like that anyway.

Edit: Found the article
http://www.popeofslope.com/scotland/usscothandicaps.html

dizzy_87

yes you have what they call a anchor point i think the most you are allowed to go out is 5 shots

Russman

dizzy_87 wrote: »

yes you have what they call a anchor point i think the most you are allowed to go out is 5 shots

I have visions of it being pretty easy to win a competition in the last 6 months before the new system being implemented............:D:D

mike12

In the linked article it gives the example of players only playing 3 or 4 competition rounds.

I would play 30 plus every year.
I think in the UK they only use monthly medals the rest of the time it's a roll up stableford comp and it's not classed as counting.

I play very few non comp rounds and usually score worse cause I don't give a monkeys.
If u can stick in any type of round would it be a pick and choose good rounds go in if u want to come down and bad rounds if u want to go up,
Although there seems to be a weighting towards comp rounds.

Russman

mike12 wrote: »

In the linked article it gives the example of players only playing 3 or 4 competition rounds.

I would play 30 plus every year.
I think in the UK they only use monthly medals the rest of the time it's a roll up stableford comp and it's not classed as counting.

I play very few non comp rounds and usually score worse cause I don't give a monkeys.
If u can stick in any type of round would it be a pick and choose good rounds go in if u want to come down and bad rounds if u want to go up,
Although there seems to be a weighting towards comp rounds.

Ya, I think there seems to be a very different culture in some parts of the world, especially the States with regard to competitions. Like you I'd play 30 plus, easily, in a season. I'm not sure whether they simply don't have weekend competitions over there or whether a weekend comp is viewed a pretty much social golf. I read on one site that events like State Amateur Championships are classed as tournament rounds, but qualifiers are not, so possibly its a terminology thing. Maybe someone can answer.....?
I'd hate to see the number of events/competitions/rounds that can be used in your handicap be reduced tbh.