Ireland can’t even bring itself to raise taxes on the fuel

n97 mini

Only discovered this blog today. Lots of interesting stuff on it including this.

The mind boggles as to why Noonan hasn't increased duty on diesel. Also recommened is the elimination of the €5k cap on VRT for EVs. With Tesla in town that would have been a serious incentive.

http://www.kenfoxe.com/2017/01/while-four-world-cities-agree-to-ban-diesel-vehicles-ireland-cant-even-bring-itself-to-raise-taxes-on-the-fuel/

Donal55

n97 mini wrote: »

Only discovered this blog today. Lots of interesting stuff on it including this.

The mind boggles as to why Noonan hasn't increased duty on diesel. Also recommened is the elimination of the €5k cap on VRT for EVs. With Tesla in town that would have been a serious incentive.

http://www.kenfoxe.com/2017/01/while-four-world-cities-agree-to-ban-diesel-vehicles-ireland-cant-even-bring-itself-to-raise-taxes-on-the-fuel/

Id say they dont want to run foul of the truckers and all those SIMI garages.

Damien360

Donal55 wrote: »

Id say they dont want to run foul of the truckers and all those SIMI garages.

How do you think food produce gets to your supermarket. If the price of transport goes up then you will pay more in the supermarket. Articulated trucks are never going to be EV's.

SIMI don't matter as it is ultimately a consumer cost for them outside of their remit.

cros13

Donal55 wrote: »

Id say they dont want to run foul of the truckers and all those SIMI garages.

*cough* That's what the Section 99 diesel rebate is for. I own a licensed road haulage company too (running concrete and aggregates for roadstone).

All you have to do is increase the existing rebate.... and eventually dial it back as more haulage moves to electric powertrains (which for short to mid-range haulage ( - i.e. anything in Ireland) is already technically possible (though not financially viable yet)).

• It's already financially viable for things like rubbish trucks (up to 32 tons) and delivery vans (though outside China there's not much in the way of longer-range options on the market).
• Short range haulage (journey segments up to 150/200km for 30 ton loads) will probably be viable for pure electric trucks in the 5-10 year timeframe (again... some options in china... needs some reductions in capital cost and about 50% more range to be viable). Daimler already have two products due in the next 3-5 years.
• Mid-range haulage (~300-400km) should also be viable in ~10 years, but we're going to need battery prices in the $70-75/kWh range.
• Long range - just tie the short or midrange powertrain to a diesel or SOFC-style methane fuel cell range extender (provided the heat can be handled safely). That's what Nikola were planning until they lost the plot, lost the ability to plug in and went for
  hydrogen
  /bulls88t for the range extender.
• Buses - well, we already have long range pure BEV buses hitting the market with ranges in the 600-1000km bracket... they just need to work their way into volume production and come down in price. Brighsun for example demoed their long range bus by driving from Melbourne to Sydney on a single charge.

homer911

Damien360 wrote: »

Articulated trucks are never going to be EV's.

I'm pretty sure Tesla said they were developing an articulated truck.


And didn't Thomas Watson of IBM predict a world demand of just five computers?

bertie4evr

homer911 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Tesla said they were developing an articulated truck.

Yeah they've announced they're working on it. It's to be shown later this year.

grogi

n97 mini wrote: »

Only discovered this blog today. Lots of interesting stuff on it including this.

The mind boggles as to why Noonan hasn't increased duty on diesel.

It's not mind boggling. Increasing the duty will have very LITTLE effect in pollution reduction.

What is on the road stays there for foreseeable future and I don't expect people to just drive less. Increasing the price of diesel will only upset the general population, won't really change what is being sold new and won't reduce pollution in short nor long term.

What needs to change are the VRT rates - that would stop the flood of diesels. No difference short them either, but long term much bigger effect.

Also recommened is the elimination of the €5k cap on VRT for EVs. With Tesla in town that would have been a serious incentive.

http://www.kenfoxe.com/2017/01/while-four-world-cities-agree-to-ban-diesel-vehicles-ireland-cant-even-bring-itself-to-raise-taxes-on-the-fuel/

I am pretty sure that people buying Teslas are not doing it because of the €5k VRT discount...

n97 mini

grogi wrote: »

It's not mind boggling. Increasing the duty will have very LITTLE effect in pollution reduction.

What is on the road stays there for foreseeable future and I don't expect people to just drive less. Increasing the price of diesel will only upset the general population, won't really change what is being sold new and won't reduce pollution in short nor long term.

What needs to change are the VRT rates - that would stop the flood of diesels. No difference short them either, but long term much bigger effect.

Fuel duty would be only one (simple) measure as part of a package of measures to get people to consider something other than diesel. As it is diesel fuel has a tax incentive that pre-dates the switch to CO2... Why!?

grogi wrote: »

I am pretty sure that people buying Teslas are not doing it because of the €5k VRT discount...

Buying new maybe not so much. But look at what zero VRT did for used Leaf imports. AND, when the CO2 based motor tax/VRT combo came in the BMW 520D became the best-selling submodel of any car in Ireland. Arguably it wasn't the rich who started buying them by the boatload, but the nouveau riche.

Shefwedfan

homer911 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Tesla said they were developing an articulated truck.


And didn't Thomas Watson of IBM predict a world demand of just five computers?

Dont bring Tom into this....he was right and you will see!!!!

Bigus

Reduce the duty on petrol,

"No way we couldn't even consider it, "


Hold on ;

maybe Charlie mc creevey could get re elected ,

he's the only politician who ever proved reduced taxes might actually boost revenue.

Reduced taxes will get people to spend more giving the Government more money but the fools can't see this.

It's a bit like the Publicans can't see that the cost of drink in the pubs is far too high and that they are loosing out to the off licenses.

Reduced taxes will encourage spending which goes back to the economy creating more jobs. If people have less to spend due to higher income tax for instance then it won't go back to the economy but straight to the Government.

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

Reduced taxes will get people to spend more giving the Government more money but the fools can't see this.

No, that is a huge oversimplification and simply not true.

There is some economy boost effect of reducing taxes - but in no world it is enough to compensate for reduced rate.

However excessive increases in taxes also reduces tax revenue - people simply cannot pay them anymore and decide to evade.

grogi

n97 mini wrote: »

Buying new maybe not so much. But look at what zero VRT did for used Leaf imports. AND, when the CO2 based motor tax/VRT combo came in the BMW 520D became the best-selling submodel of any car in Ireland. Arguably it wasn't the rich who started buying them by the boatload, but the nouveau riche.

First of all, EV are already benefiting from an excellent rate of 14%, and €5k discount is on top of that. You need to be bringing a car worth more than €35k to go beyond the €5k discount. And if you are, few additional quid will not really stop you.

And secondly, I really don't see the need to promote bringing Teslas here. As you mentioned, Leaf gets enough incentives for the import to spike - so the "pro-clean-air" solution works. One or two more teslas that would be brought (instead of other EV probably anyway) will not make any difference.

Nothing will make a difference to EV sales in Ireland until there is far greater restrictions imposed on ICE cars, and that will not come from our useless Government , however, there is simply far too few EV makes and models to choose from and the range in most people's opinions is next to useless.

Car manufacturers are continually dragging their heals when it comes to producing electric cars, for instance after all this time Nissan should have more than one electric car and one van, I think hey have a Micra EV already on sale in Japan not sure. You'd think now you could get an EV Qashqai or Xtrail but no not a hope and not a glimmer of hope. Nissan have backtracked on their plans to electrify their entire fleet by 2020. No they plan plug ins only and it's simply not good enough.

So, I don't think all the incentives in the world would convince Irish People to change, certainly the emissions scandal hasn't slow down Diesel sales to the point it could make a difference meaning Irish People couldn't care less about air pollution and that's highly evident with the amount of homes you see spewing out highly dangerous solid fuel fire smoke.

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

First of all, EV are already benefiting from an excellent rate of 14%, and €5k discount is on top of that. You need to be bringing a car worth more than €35k to go beyond the €5k discount. And if you are, few additional quid will not really stop you.

And secondly, I really don't see the need to promote bringing Teslas here. As you mentioned, Leaf gets enough incentives for the import to spike - so the "pro-clean-air" solution works. One or two more teslas that would be brought (instead of other EV probably anyway) will not make any difference.

I agree, I would not support extending VRT relief to facilitate high end EVs, arguably a person buying a 70-100K car is not influenced by a 5K rebate

BIK should be targeted at again sub 50K cars


personably I would suspend VRT relief on imported EV cars, it causes distortions and depresses new car EV sales, ( which are needed to sustain the trade in market ) .

The key in incentives is running cost incentives, that has the biggest impact in the Irish marketplace ( which is why diesels are gaining a foothold )

hence , commitments on a fair pricing regime for chargers , user incentives like zero motor tax and tolls, free parking while charging nationwide etc etc


I would also remove any incentives from PHEVs with less then 50 km electric range

BoatMad

Car manufacturers are continually dragging their heals when it comes to producing electric cars, for instance after all this time Nissan should have more than one electric car and one van, I think hey have a Micra EV already on sale in Japan not sure. You'd think now you could get an EV Qashqai or Xtrail but no not a hope and not a glimmer of hope. Nissan have backtracked on their plans to electrify their entire fleet by 2020. No they plan plug ins only and it's simply not good enough.

Thats cause the Leaf has been a commercial failure for them

unkel

grogi wrote: »

I really don't see the need to promote bringing Teslas here.

Why not? Every new Tesla will take a large BMW / Audi / Mercedes off the road. All diesels these days, so good riddance and much better for our health (and the emission penalties we the tax payers are forced to pay)

Mope

I actually would not care what EVs are brought in, the more the merrier! Infrastructure would need to keep up which is good and also knowing potential of Ireland getting renewable Energy sources EV is perfect for this Island!

n97 mini

BoatMad wrote: »

Thats cause the Leaf has been a commercial failure for them

It's been so bad it's been the biggest selling EV in the world and they're bringing out another one.

BoatMad

n97 mini wrote: »

It's been so bad it's been the biggest selling EV in the world and they're bringing out another one.

Yes but in the context of their original plan it has been a commercial failure and it has focused rethink into a mid-way house that is hybrids, Overall EV takeup worldwide is well below original expectations

BoatMad

Mope wrote: »

I actually would not care what EVs are brought in, the more the merrier! Infrastructure would need to keep up which is good and also knowing potential of Ireland getting renewable Energy sources EV is perfect for this Island!

You have to be careful that you do not disrupt the internal sales process of cars. otherwise dealers here will simply stop selling and supporting the car

Hence my comment that I would restrict the VRT rebate to new cars sold in Ireland

Mope

How would that be disrupted with more cars coming in? Honestly do not know, explain in few words if possible.

BoatMad

Mope wrote: »

How would that be disrupted with more cars coming in? Honestly do not know, explain in few words if possible.

You can see the effect on Leaf residuals , when a large supply of ex-PCP Leafs came onto the UK market at the same time, The lack of VRT made it far more competitive to bring a 2nd hand car from the UK into Ireland , then buy it from a local dealer.

But the fact remains, new car sales require a functioning 2nd hand market that retains reasonable residuals , other wise the whole new car process is undermined

Hence I suggest that preference be given to ensuring an orderly car market , rather then incentivising people to import " sectionally " or "periodically " cheap cars from else where

cros13

..and availability of used cars for the 2nd hand market depend on new ones being sold.