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Many/most Irish building names and numbers grossly dysfunctional

  • 18-04-2017 7:38pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭


    There is an item in today's Independent about new office buildings in docklands (DUB). Their addresses are clueless - such as Capital Dock and Spencer Place, as examples.

    'Capital Dock' tells me nothing about where the building is - even if one has the street name - one might have to travel from end to end of the street to find the building. (I do not know where this half baked smelling office building will be) but assuming it is at (and called) 1000 Custom House Quay - it would be far easier to find. Use metric numbering ie 1000 Custom House Quay is 200m from 1200 Custom House Quay etc. And this system allows one to put a new building between 1000 and 1200 and call it 1100 etc. No dumb 1000A type addresses. If you are driving and searching, you re-set your odometer outside say 500 Custom House Quay and proceed for about 500 m. If you are walking, and it is 2km away (as indicated by the numbers) you may wish to take public transport instead.

    If I may then move to business parks, or those quaintly referred to as 'Industrial Estates', where in 99% of cases there is zero industry, mainly boxshifting and similar.

    Why do businesses located in business parks in IRL feel it necessary to put 'Unit' before their building number. In a traditional house address, one does not write 'House 12 Anytown Road'. Using words or letters makes it far harder to machine read (in terms of automated OCR recognition and sorting systems). Which forces mail to wait for a human being to read the address before it can be machine sorted, which can add to delay etc. One sometime drives into a potholed business park in Ireland and it looks like something from the third world. There is no standardized signage for which avenue or drive is here or there and where a company might has its offices.

    Establishments such as Leinster House or large hotels seem to feel they are big enough not to give a full postal address including building number. The Cork International Hotel is a prime example. It is in a business park where every road is numbered and every building is numbered within that road. Yet the dumb (in my view) owners of this hotel do not include their building number in the published address.

    The German Parliament which governs the largest country in the EU isn't ashamed to put the parliament (Bundestag) building number in the address - ie
    Platz der Republik 1,
    11011 Berlin

    About EUR 40 million has been wasted on a dumb, PPSN style random number for virtually every address in Ireland. Which does little to make it easy to find a building.

    The postal services in many European countries (as well as the US) refuse to deliver to mail to buildings that do not display and publish a building number and a road/street name.

    Not having one costs logistics companies in Ireland many million EUR in finding costs to deliver a package every year.



    http://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/brexit-aside-dublin-office-market-is-continuing-to-perform-strongly-35625069.html


Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I walked the entire length of Henry Street, Dublin 1 looking for a particular shop, and not one shop had a building number.

    Why do businesses not display their postal address on their letter box?


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Impetus wrote: »
    About EUR 40 million has been wasted on a dumb, PPSN style random number for virtually every address in Ireland. Which does little to make it easy to find a building.

    I don't understand why people feel it somehow supports their argument to say something that's verifiably untrue.

    The Eircode for the Cork International Hotel you mentioned is T12 H516. If you type that Eircode into Google Maps, it shows you its precise location, and offers you options for navigating to it.

    https://www.google.ie/maps/?q=T12H516

    I'm not sure how much more you expect it to do to make it easy for you to find a building, short of putting you over its shoulder and carrying you there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,874 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I have been saying this for years.

    Every road should be named.

    Every building should be numbered.

    Every building should have a unique address.

    There should be a national database.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,809 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I don't understand why people feel it somehow supports their argument to say something that's verifiably untrue.

    The Eircode for the Cork International Hotel you mentioned is T12 H516. If you type that Eircode into Google Maps, it shows you its precise location, and offers you options for navigating to it.

    https://www.google.ie/maps/?q=T12H516

    I'm not sure how much more you expect it to do to make it easy for you to find a building, short of putting you over its shoulder and carrying you there.

    Why would you have to put it into Google Maps for it to be of use? What does the T have to do with anything? The UK system at least gives you a clue where you should start looking - the first letter(s) indicate the city, the first numbers show the section of the city, only then do you need to refer to a map to pinpoint the exact house, and even then it is logical enough that a postman could easily know which address is being referred to.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I don't understand why people feel it somehow supports their argument to say something that's verifiably untrue.

    The Eircode for the Cork International Hotel you mentioned is T12 H516. If you type that Eircode into Google Maps, it shows you its precise location, and offers you options for navigating to it.

    https://www.google.ie/maps/?q=T12H516

    I'm not sure how much more you expect it to do to make it easy for you to find a building, short of putting you over its shoulder and carrying you there.

    That only works if you know the Eircode. How do you find the Eircode? Easy, you phone them up and ask them. What if you do not know their phone number? Well, you look it up. Sounds like 'There is a hole in my bucket'.

    Eircode is a PPS code for addresses - only useful if you know it already - otherwise it is very difficult to find.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,770 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    That only works if you know the Eircode. How do you find the Eircode? Easy, you phone them up and ask them. What if you do not know their phone number? Well, you look it up. Sounds like 'There is a hole in my bucket'.

    Eircode is a PPS code for addresses - only useful if you know it already - otherwise it is very difficult to find.

    Getting an Eircode is simple, there's its own site that allows multiple free checks per day, and is easy to get more, and an app on Android. The problem with Eircode is that it's useless for companies as they need to pay to access the addresses and its no use for stream lining delivery's.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    That only works if you know the Eircode. How do you find the Eircode?
    I typed "Cork International Hotel" into finder.eircode.ie. It's a bit bizarre in this day and age that anyone would argue that information is difficult to find.
    looksee wrote: »
    Why would you have to put it into Google Maps for it to be of use?
    I'm really not interested in getting into a deep debate on how Eircodes are the worst thing since the Holocaust, considering I'm already being stalked on Twitter by the loc8code account.

    It was claimed that Eircodes don't make it easier to find a building. That's objectively, self-evidently untrue, which is the only point I made. If you want to argue about how Eircodes are going to cause the next potato famine or whatever, there are threads on the Infrastructure forum for that.
    Del2005 wrote: »
    The problem with Eircode is that it's useless for companies as they need to pay to access the addresses...
    Yup. Just like delivery vehicles are useless for companies as they need to pay for diesel.
    ...and its no use for stream lining delivery's.
    Yeah, it's impossible to optimise delivery to premises for which you have precise geographical co-ordinates.

    The single most annoying thing about Eircodes is that there's so much utter nonsense talked about them.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Del2005 wrote: »
    Getting an Eircode is simple, there's its own site that allows multiple free checks per day, and is easy to get more, and an app on Android. The problem with Eircode is that it's useless for companies as they need to pay to access the addresses and its no use for stream lining delivery's.

    If I want to find Aunt Mary's Eircode, I need to know where Aunt Mary lives. If she lives in Ballygobackwards, and I do not know exactly where her house is since I have not been there in ages, then I cannot find the house, so I cannot find the Eircode from the site.

    Eircode is brilliant if you do not really need it as you already have the number and street name - not so good if the address is one of the 40% of non-unique addresses in rural Ireland.

    Another 38 million euro down the drain.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    If I want to find Aunt Mary's Eircode, I need to know where Aunt Mary lives.
    ...or ask her for it.

    What amazes me most about Eircode's critics is just how goddamn hard they work to ignore any evidence that counters their criticism of it.

    They'll claim it doesn't make places easier to find, and stick their fingers in their ears when I tell them how much easier it has made it for my business to find places.

    They'll claim the emergency services can't use it, but don't seem to have checked with the emergency services, who use it every. single. day.

    They claim An Post don't use it, blithely ignoring An Post's statements to the contrary.

    I'm not claiming Eircode is perfect. It would just be nice to have a conversation about it that wasn't based completely on fiction, is all.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ...or ask her for it.

    What amazes me most about Eircode's critics is just how goddamn hard they work to ignore any evidence that counters their criticism of it.

    The counter argument is the same.

    So to use Eircode, I need to ask Aunt Mary. How do I do that? Phone her? I need her phone number, but what if she is ex-directory or on a new mobile phone?

    For non-unique addresses, Eircode is a secret code known only to the house holder and to those who can locate the property on the map. There is no Eircode directory as there is for phone numbers. There is no sign outside any property with its Eircode on it.

    Now, for businesses, it is brilliant - particularly since Google came on board. For the average punter, trying to send Christmas cards, or Birthday cards, It is useless - just as well An Post do not use it. (I know they make pronouncements that they do, but they do not insist on it, and appear not to bother with it, and following the whopping increase in the cost of a postage stamp, they may well have a lot less to bother with).


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  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    So to use Eircode, I need to ask Aunt Mary. How do I do that? Phone her? I need her phone number, but what if she is ex-directory or on a new mobile phone?
    So your argument against Eircodes is that they are as hard to discover as people's phone numbers?

    I guess that's why nobody ever calls or texts anyone else.
    There is no Eircode directory as there is for phone numbers.
    So if you want your Aunt Mary's mobile number, you look her up in the phone book?
    It is useless - just as well An Post do not use it. (I know they make pronouncements that they do, but...

    ...but you know better than they do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭HivemindXX


    I don't like Eircode but I have to agree with those who are saying that critics are not helping themselves by posting nonsense.

    Just out of interest what system do you want to use to find this aunt Mary? The one whose address you don't know, who you can't get in contact with because they keep their phone number a closely guarded secret.

    It seems lucky that they didn't use Eircode in Iraq or you guys would have been blaming that while the Americans were not able to find Saddam.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    HivemindXX wrote: »
    I don't like Eircode but I have to agree with those who are saying that critics are not helping themselves by posting nonsense.

    Just out of interest what system do you want to use to find this aunt Mary? The one whose address you don't know, who you can't get in contact with because they keep their phone number a closely guarded secret.

    It seems lucky that they didn't use Eircode in Iraq or you guys would have been blaming that while the Americans were not able to find Saddam.

    I think you are being deliberately obtuse.

    If I want a UK postcode, I can look it up using the address. If I have the address, I can look up the post code.

    For Eircode, I can look up the Eircode for unique addresses, but not for the 35% to 40% of non-unique (generally) rural addresses. Now An Post can find the non-unique addresses without the Eircode because they have the name of the addressee, but that is not available when looking up Eircodes.

    If non-unique addresses were eliminated then the problem goes away. Under the current scheme, the only way to get an Eircode for non-unique addresses is to:

    1. Recognise it on a map
    or
    2. Ask the addressee.

    Neither is feasible for a long list of addresses. It is a good job that An Post do not rely on them.

    Businesses do not generally have this problem if they ask the customer to enter an address form that includes the Eircode.

    We need to start eliminating non-unique addresses. Why this is seem as a problem, I do not understand - and the time to start is now.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    For Eircode, I can look up the Eircode for unique addresses, but not for the 35% to 40% of non-unique (generally) rural addresses. Now An Post can find the non-unique addresses without the Eircode because they have the name of the addressee, but that is not available when looking up Eircodes.
    It's also not available to An Post if there are non-unique addressee names sharing non-unique addresses.
    If non-unique addresses were eliminated then the problem goes away.
    Happily, every address in Ireland is now unique.
    We need to start eliminating non-unique addresses.
    We already have.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ...I'm already being stalked on Twitter by the loc8code account.

    In case anyone thought I was exaggerating:

    415083.png


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    The Eircode for the Cork International Hotel you mentioned is T12 H516. If you type that Eircode into Google Maps, it shows you its precise location, and offers you options for navigating to it.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It was claimed that Eircodes don't make it easier to find a building. That's objectively, self-evidently untrue, which is the only point I made.
    All you have done is show us the miracle of the google search engine.
    You could equally have typed in the address of the hotel (or anyones address) into google and got the same pinpoint on google maps, without having to find out any eircode in advance. So that's €40M spent on eircode down the drain.

    Suppose you have no internet access, what then? Back to knocking on doors and asking people for directions. At least the aforementioned Loc8 code works in a car sat nav without the internet, or could be transposed onto a paper map because it was based on the logical use of actual geo co-ordinates. And it was offered to the state for free.

    Regarding house numbers, the French system of having each house display a standard sized number in a standard colour makes a lot of sense.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    I can see this is going to be the usual whack-a-mole that every discussion of Eircode turns into.
    recedite wrote: »
    All you have done is show us the miracle of the google search engine.
    You could equally have typed in the address of the hotel (or anyones address) into google and got the same pinpoint on google maps, without having to find out any eircode in advance.
    Yes. Because that's what Eircodes were invented for: Googling unique addresses.

    It's deeply frigging tiresome addressing someone's point, only to have someone argue that I didn't manage to address their utterly orthogonal point at the same time.

    I was contradicting the objectively false claim that an Eircode doesn't make it easier to locate a building. That claim remains objectively false; its objective falsehood is clearly demonstrated by the fact that everyone who has argued with me since then, including my favourite Twitter stalker, has claimed that I haven't addressed some other criticism of Eircodes, none of which I set out to address.
    So that's €40M spent on eircode down the drain.
    Here's the thing: I know for a fact you're not stupid enough to believe that Eircodes were introduced for the sole purpose of allowing me to Google places I could have otherwise easily found.

    What puzzles me is why you're pretending to be that stupid.
    At least the aforementioned Loc8 code works in a car sat nav without the internet...
    Not in my car, it doesn't.
    Regarding house numbers, the French system of having each house display a standard sized number in a standard colour makes a lot of sense.
    I've seen a lot of houses in France without standard size numbers on them.

    That aside: yes, there's a lot to be said for a lot of things. In Denmark, every road has a unique name (within its area), and every house on each road has a number. But then, in Denmark, every house has a water meter.

    There's not a lot of point telling us that we should be using a different system, when we all know that we (as a nation) quite simply wouldn't use that system.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Yes. Because that's what Eircodes were invented for: Googling unique addresses.

    .... Here's the thing: I know for a fact you're not stupid enough to believe that Eircodes were introduced for the sole purpose of allowing me to Google places I could have otherwise easily found.
    Your two claims above seem to contradictory?
    It has taken over a year since the introduction of eircodes for google to incorporate them onto google maps and make them searchable, whereas you could do that all along in google by just typing in the normal address.

    Google incorporated the codes subsequently, of their own volition.

    Eircodes were pushed by the govt. with the collapse of the govt. in 2010 and the signing of an IMF memorandum of understanding which gave a timeline for the introduction of a property tax and water charges. Which necessitated the introduction of a unique identifier for every property "letterbox" so that the bills could be assigned correctly. PPS numbers for houses in other words.

    So nothing whatsoever in the design to make houses easier to find, and no collaboration at design stage with google.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    Your two claims above seem to contradictory?
    The first "claim" was naked sarcasm. I hoped that was obvious.
    It has taken over a year since the introduction of eircodes for google to incorporate them onto google maps and make them searchable, whereas you could do that all along in google by just typing in the normal address.

    [...]

    So nothing whatsoever in the design to make houses easier to find, and no collaboration at design stage with google.

    Alright, I can see you're going to continue the disingenuous act.

    Here's a postal address: "Coolcran, Ballina, Co Mayo". Using Google Maps, please provide the latitude and longitude of the house in question.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    The counter argument is the same.

    So to use Eircode, I need to ask Aunt Mary. How do I do that? Phone her? I need her phone number, but what if she is ex-directory or on a new mobile phone?
    To use your example, i recently needed to ring a relative. Had no number or address.......by your example i have no way of contacting her.......but.......i rang another relative and got her number that way. Then i rang her and got her address. Your example makes no sense.

    And i use it in work to find houses i need to visit, many of which are up the end of lanes in the middle of nowhere. Suits me fine. Could there be an easier way? of course but for the moment im happy to use it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    The first "claim" was naked sarcasm. I hoped that was obvious.
    Its not at all obvious, because earlier you were claiming the searchability on google was the major benefit.
    Here's your post, in case you have forgotten...
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I don't understand why people feel it somehow supports their argument to say something that's verifiably untrue.
    The Eircode for the Cork International Hotel you mentioned is T12 H516. If you type that Eircode into Google Maps, it shows you its precise location, and offers you options for navigating to it.

    https://www.google.ie/maps/?q=T12H516

    I'm not sure how much more you expect it to do to make it easy for you to find a building, short of putting you over its shoulder and carrying you there.
    I presume you now agree that the major benefit is really in providing a "unique identifier" for matching each property with a list on a database, which would happen to be very necessary for the purposes of delivering property tax and water charge bills?

    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Alright, I can see you're going to continue the disingenuous act.
    1. Here's a postal address: "Coolcran, Ballina, Co Mayo". Using Google Maps, please provide the latitude and longitude of the house in question. Coolcran, Ballina, Co Mayo
    1. Google cannot locate it, and the official Eircode Finder is equally stumped; it returns the following advice...."There are a number of properties that share this address.
      If you know the location of the property, please click find on map"
    If you give me the full address we might have more luck, or better still the loc8 code for it, because the latitude and longitude would be already contained within that code.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    Its not at all obvious, because earlier you were claiming the searchability on google was the major benefit.
    No, I wasn't, but hey: thanks at least for proving my point that Eircodes critics are forced to rely on untruths to support their flimsy arguments.
    Here's your post, in case you have forgotten...
    I hadn't forgotten, thanks. That post was in response to the objectively untrue claim that Eircodes don't make it easier to find buildings. That's it. It made no claim of a "major benefit", a straw man that you only just now introduced to the thread in an attempt to pretend I said something with which you can argue.
    I presume you now agree that the major benefit is really in providing a "unique identifier" for matching each property with a list on a database, which would happen to be very necessary for the purposes of delivering property tax and water charge bills?
    You can presume whatever you want, but if you're going to ask me whether I agree with a statement that you just plucked from your posterior, you should probably read what I've written to see if anything I've said supports your rather bizarre presumption.
    If you give me the full address...
    I gave you the full (pre-Eircode) address of the property.

    Allow me to remind you of some of your contributions to this discussion:
    recedite wrote: »
    You could equally have typed in the address of the hotel (or anyones address) into google and got the same pinpoint on google maps, without having to find out any eircode in advance. So that's €40M spent on eircode down the drain.
    recedite wrote: »
    So nothing whatsoever in the design to make houses easier to find...

    You've claimed that you can type "anyone's address" - your words - into Google and get a pinpoint on a map, without knowing their Eircode. So show me the pinpoint on the map. Or admit that you're wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Not sure what you're trying to prove here.
    Some guy who never used to bother with a proper address was given one by the nice eircode people.
    Without spending €40M, he could have given his own house a name. Or a number.
    Or register a loc8 code to it. Any of these and all would be unique identifiers.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    Not sure what you're trying to prove here.
    That you said something that's objectively untrue. You said you could type anyone's address - again, I'm quoting your own words - into Google Maps and pinpoint their location.

    You were wrong, as was the OP, who claimed that Eircodes don't make it easier to find buildings.

    Refusing to admit you were wrong doesn't make you any less wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭PDVerse


    I think you are being deliberately obtuse.

    If I want a UK postcode, I can look it up using the address. If I have the address, I can look up the post code.

    For Eircode, I can look up the Eircode for unique addresses, but not for the 35% to 40% of non-unique (generally) rural addresses. Now An Post can find the non-unique addresses without the Eircode because they have the name of the addressee, but that is not available when looking up Eircodes.

    If non-unique addresses were eliminated then the problem goes away. Under the current scheme, the only way to get an Eircode for non-unique addresses is to:

    1. Recognise it on a map
    or
    2. Ask the addressee.

    Neither is feasible for a long list of addresses. It is a good job that An Post do not rely on them.

    Businesses do not generally have this problem if they ask the customer to enter an address form that includes the Eircode.

    We need to start eliminating non-unique addresses. Why this is seem as a problem, I do not understand - and the time to start is now.

    There are two principal logic fails I encounter with Eircode, both involving non-unique addresses.

    The first involves companies who contact Eircode Approved Providers to get Eircodes added to their list of non-unique addresses they collected prior to July 2015. When it is explained that as the addresses are non-unique we wouldn't know which of the Eircodes in a townland relate to their addresses they quickly realise they haven't thought through the logic of their request. The advice is to request the Eircode from their customers at the next business as usual customer interaction.

    The second logic fail is the example I'm quoting above. Unfortunately Sam Russell hasn't thought through the logic of his argument. If an address that was previously non-unique becomes unique, then unless you know the location of the address on a map, the only way you can get the unique element is to ask the person who lives at the address. This is completely independent of what makes an address unique, be it an Eircode, a building number or name or any alternative code you choose to propose. If the houses in Aunt Marys townland were numbered 1 to 60 how would that help, unless Aunt Mary told you that she lives in 21?

    Non-unique addresses were eliminated in Ireland in July 2015.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    PDVerse wrote: »
    The second logic fail is the example I'm quoting above. Unfortunately Sam Russell hasn't thought through the logic of his argument. If an address that was previously non-unique becomes unique, then unless you know the location of the address on a map, the only way you can get the unique element is to ask the person who lives at the address. This is completely independent of what makes an address unique, be it an Eircode, a building number or name or any alternative code you choose to propose. If the houses in Aunt Marys townland were numbered 1 to 60 how would that help, unless Aunt Mary told you that she lives in 21?

    Non-unique addresses were eliminated in Ireland in July 2015.

    You are of course correct, if Aunt Mary did get a unique address for her house in the townland, I would only know by asking her. However, the likelihood is that she, along with others, would paint the number on her gatepost, which is not done with the Eircode. Also, the numbering would presumably follow some logic which Eircode does not.

    For example, my sister lives down the country and a few years ago, the STD code was changed for her area. Now I could find the new code by looking up the number for the local Garda station and knowing the last few digits of her number, I could phone her. That is not possible with Eircode.

    Now, I still do not know her number but she is likely to include it in her address on any communication which she is unlikely to do with her Eircode. Not a single Christmas card I received this year included the Eircode on the senders address.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,809 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The counter argument is the same.

    So to use Eircode, I need to ask Aunt Mary. How do I do that? Phone her? I need her phone number, but what if she is ex-directory or on a new mobile phone?

    For non-unique addresses, Eircode is a secret code known only to the house holder and to those who can locate the property on the map. There is no Eircode directory as there is for phone numbers. There is no sign outside any property with its Eircode on it.

    Now, for businesses, it is brilliant - particularly since Google came on board. For the average punter, trying to send Christmas cards, or Birthday cards, It is useless - just as well An Post do not use it. (I know they make pronouncements that they do, but they do not insist on it, and appear not to bother with it, and following the whopping increase in the cost of a postage stamp, they may well have a lot less to bother with).

    If Aunt Mary doesn't want you to find her, and keeps her personal information to herself including her phone number, mobile number, correct address and Eircode, then why would you expect the State to invade her privacy and provide that information easily to you?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,809 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    recedite wrote: »
    Eircodes were pushed by the govt. with the collapse of the govt. in 2010 and the signing of an IMF memorandum of understanding which gave a timeline for the introduction of a property tax and water charges. Which necessitated the introduction of a unique identifier for every property "letterbox" so that the bills could be assigned correctly. PPS numbers for houses in other words.
    .


    Do you have a link to some official Government publication that sets out the above as the reason for creating Eircode?


  • Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭PDVerse


    You are of course correct, if Aunt Mary did get a unique address for her house in the townland, I would only know by asking her. However, the likelihood is that she, along with others, would paint the number on her gatepost, which is not done with the Eircode. Also, the numbering would presumably follow some logic which Eircode does not.

    For example, my sister lives down the country and a few years ago, the STD code was changed for her area. Now I could find the new code by looking up the number for the local Garda station and knowing the last few digits of her number, I could phone her. That is not possible with Eircode.

    Now, I still do not know her number but she is likely to include it in her address on any communication which she is unlikely to do with her Eircode. Not a single Christmas card I received this year included the Eircode on the senders address.
    People in Ireland are very resistant to changes in their address:

    1. A long house number, e.g. 2107, is more acceptable than a short house number, e.g. 21, as the latter is perceived to indicate that you live in an estate. (I live in an estate and don't know what the fuss is about, but apparently this does bother people.)

    2. House numbers are perceived to change addresses, postcodes are not.
    Aunt Mary is actually more likely to include a postcode in her address than change her address to include a house number. Painting house numbers on gateposts? Sounds like a job for the local authority...

    3. Fuzzy Boundaries
    Ordnance Survey Ireland maintain the legal definition of townland boundaries. However local use of townland names in addresses can be very different. Any number allocation would be attached to an address that may differ from current use. Currently Eircode advice is very clear, use the address you have always used, just add Eircode to the end of the address.

    4. Any numbering system would group properties
    If you number by roads, rather than by townland, then there would be legitimate complaints that Eircode was making townland names effectively redundant in addresses. That would be resisted, and we also have the issue that not everyone would be happy with the road name provided...

    A National Address change project would take years to complete, would face major obstacles, cost millions, and wouldn't really offer any benefits, post Eircode, to anyone who has an offline version of Google Maps on their phone.

    Its never too late to do the right thing, and I'm not arguing against better addressing for new properties, I'm just highlighting the scale of the issue that currently exists and why Eircode explicitly didn't try to alter addresses.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    PDVerse wrote: »
    People in Ireland are very resistant to changes in their address:

    A National Address change project would take years to complete, would face major obstacles, cost millions, and wouldn't really offer any benefits, post Eircode, to anyone who has an offline version of Google Maps on their phone.

    Its never too late to do the right thing, and I'm not arguing against better addressing for new properties, I'm just highlighting the scale of the issue that currently exists and why Eircode explicitly didn't try to alter addresses.

    If such a project were to be undertaken, the sooner they start it the better. Benefits would be a better solution. How it is achieved can be decided, but the loony system we currently have would be an improvement in the 'whatever you're having yourself, Eircode' address system you are suggesting.

    I agree that addresses are seen to have social and heritage implications, and people are loyal to their county and (less so) to their townland. How adding a street name or house name fits into that, I see fits less into that. If all new estates had to have unique addresses, as defined by the planning authority might be a start.


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