The Tricolour- Thomas Francis Meagher or Edward Hollywood

djemba djemba

Watching the news and a the piece they did about the Easter Rising celebrations. There was a piece about the people who gave us the national anthem and the tricolour. The mentioned Edward Hollywood bringing the flag from Paris. I thought it was Thomas Francis Meagher.

tabbey

djemba djemba wrote: »

Watching the news and a the piece they did about the Easter Rising celebrations. There was a piece about the people who gave us the national anthem and the tricolour. The mentioned Edward Hollywood bringing the flag from Paris. I thought it was Thomas Francis Meagher.

I always understood that Thomas Francis Meagher brought the tricolour from Paris, but looking into the matter it has been stated that Hollywood accompanied TFM.

Shane Mac Thomais seems to be the source of this story, having observed a reference to it on Hollywood's gravestone. Hollywood was a silk weaver from Francis Street who was an early trade unionist. How he could afford a trip to Paris in 1848 is beyond me.

Nevertheless Shane Mac Thomais was a man I held in great esteem. I always found him pleasant, helpful and knowledgeable, a man who could think outside the box, and use his brain. Therefore I think there must be some truth to the story.

panchosanza

Young Irelanders founded the "Irish Confederation" after breaking with O'Connell. A Confederation delegation went to Paris after the republican revolution there in February. The delegates were William Smith O'Brien, Thomas Francis Meagher, Martin MacDermott, Richard O'Gorman, Edward Hollywood, and Eugene O'Reilly.

On their return Meagher made the famous speeches introducing the flag "brought from Paris" in Waterford in March and Dublin in April. His words were used in evidence in his subsequent treason trial. The flag was made in French silk. I dunno on what basis we know Hollywood made it:-- is it just his gravestone? I have seen other sources say it was presented to the delegates by "the French provisional government " (Christine Kinealy) or "a committee of French women" (Niamh O'Sullivan) or "Alphonse Lamartine to Meagher's design" (Peter Berresford Ellis). Maybe the original was made by French people and on the delegates' return Hollywood used his silk weaving skillz and contacts to make replicas?

panchosanza

1848 Journal of the Marquess of Normanby, UK ambassador to France:

March 18
In reading the "Moniteur" of this morning, I observed the account of the reception, at the Hotel-de-Ville, of a deputation of Irishmen, in which it was stated that a M. Leonard presented to the Provisional Government what he called "le drapeau de l'Irlande," with the expression of a wish that it might always float by the side of that of their brothers. I thought it necessary at once to demand a prompt and satisfactory explanation of this fact from Lamartine. ... M. Lamartine then came out to me from the Council, ... I could not delay to call his attention to an announcement in the "Moniteur," which, if not explained, might have very serious consequences. I pointed to the account of the reception of the Irish deputation. ... the point on which I wished for explanation was the circumstance of the reception of what was called the Irish flag; that I knew of no such thing as an Irish flag; and that if it was offered to place it by the side of the French colours, it could only be as a rebel flag. M. Lamartine assured me that he had seen no such flag; that he had paid no attention to any such circumstance; that the Government had accepted no flag; that he had answered the deputation himself, and had not made the slightest allusion to it. I replied that these assurances were only what I should have expected from him, knowing his personal sentiments towards the British Government; but that this announcement had been made in the "Moniteur," which was considered as an official organ, and though I was aware the reports there given are not always accurate, as I had before had occasion to remark to him, unless it was as positively contradicted as it had been asserted, such a statement was likely to create the worst impression in England; and, if repeated, I would not answer for its effect upon the relations between the two countries. M. Lamartine assured me, in the handsomest manner, he would do his best to give me complete satisfaction on the subject. He had before remarked to me, that the report of what he had said was far from correct, and he would endeavour, at the same time, to give a more accurate import to that.

March 21.
Dr. M'Sweeny, the President of the Irish College, called at the Embassy this afternoon to explain the report that the members of that College had formed a part of the deputation which presented an Irish address at the Hotel-de-Ville on Saturday last. ... He said that the Institution of which he was the head had nothing whatever to do with politics, and that above all he would not belong to a demonstration which should be gathered under a treasonable emblem; but in order to pacify them, he stated that a deputation from the College should go up separately to the Provisional Government to thank them for the protection extended to all, and to express their wishes for the prosperity of France. Dr. M'Sweeny says this was all which was contained in the address of the Irish College, with which about forty or fifty students started separately from the other Irish deputation; that in crossing the bridge towards the quay they fell in with the great body of the workmen's demonstration; that at first they were taken for Carlists, and being obliged to explain their character, they were then forced to join the general procession; but that in consequence they never reached the Hotel-de-Ville at all, and had nothing whatever to do with the Irish Address read there, nor with the green flag which was presented by the person who read that address.

March 23.
I thought it desirable to prepare M. Lamartine for some expression of the opinion of England on the subject of the language used in answer to some recent addresses, as I heard that an address had been agreed upon by a public meeting held at Dublin on Monday last, and I did not know how soon the delegates from that meeting might make their appearance in Paris. I therefore sought M. Lamartine this morning, and told him that I had once or twice lately postponed expressing myself as fully as I otherwise should have done on the subject of answers given to English and Irish deputations, because I felt that every moment of his time was necessary to him, from the increasing complication of the internal affairs of the country; therefore, when I had, at some inconvenience to him, sought an explanation as to the fact of the reception by the Government of a soi-disant Irish flag, which having been paraded throughout Paris on the day of the great demonstration had produced considerable sensation, I had contented myself, on the subject of the observations he made on that occasion, with remarking that I thought he had indulged too much in criticism upon our internal affairs, with which, after all, no foreign country had the slightest concern.

March 29
The Irish are arrived; their not presenting their address at once is not a good sign. It shows they have other business here, or that they are waiting to be better received after the overthrow of Lamartine, of which there was a vague expectation yesterday.

March 31
M. Lamartine mentioned to me this morning, that he had settled to receive the Irish Deputation on Monday next; he had already seen Mr. O'Brien, and he had told him distinctly that he and his friends must not expect the slightest support, or encouragement of any kind, from the French Government. M. Lamartine again repeated to me the substance of the answer he meant to make to them. "That the French Government was on terms of perfect amity with England; that it desired to continue so, and therefore to deserve it; that the general rule not to interfere in any way with the internal concerns of other countries was here peculiarly applicable; that, if France abstained from meddling with international affairs with which she had no business, still more would she decline to do so between any two parties in one country, and would refuse to pronounce any opinion upon their disputes; that, at the same time, the wishes he had for the prosperity of the British nation, extended, in like degree, to Ireland." Such, M. Lamartine assured me, was the nature of the reply the Irish Deputation would receive from him. It does not seem that this same deputation agree very well amongst themselves; the assumed superiority of Smith O'Brien offends the others, and they have put up at different hotels. From what I have heard, Meagher and the younger ones are disappointed at everything they find here. Not so much enthusiasm about themselves, or even about the Republic, as they had hoped and expected. They were also rather disgusted at much they heard at the Clubs to which they went last night.

tabbey

panchosanza wrote: »

I dunno on what basis we know Hollywood made it:-- is it just his gravestone?

I do not think there is any suggestion that Hollywood made it, merely that he may have brought it back from France, whether or not as part of a delegation.

AnthonyO

Guys, thank you very much for this thread. Mainly for my own amusement I have been researching the origins of the Irish flag for quite a few months. Until this week I had never come across the name of Edward Hollywood in connection with the Irish tricolour, apart from the fact that he had been part of a trades and citizens deputation to Paris, along with Thomas Francis Meagher and others in 1848.

Neither Meagher nor Hollywood were first to present colours of green white and orange, in whatever order, to the Irish nation. Emelia Eleanor Hamilton did that in Dublin in 1830. The first flag of those colours flown in an Irish context may have been seen in England. The first flag of those colours flown in an area can be identified was at Howth and then in Dublin city when Meagher was only seven years old.

The first flag of green white and orange, in that order, was seen in an Irish context in America in 1831. There were two Irish deputations to Paris after the start of that revolution of 1848. The first on 17th of March, St Patrick's Day, did not have a flag initially. Several Irish women living in Paris improvised a flag for them, of plain green with gold trimming. When it was discovered that was too similar to that of a revolutionary party not popular in France, they hastily scribbled a few words, such as Erin go Bragh, on it. That is the one that legend says was given to Meagher.

Meagher did present a flag of green, white and orange, in that order, in the Music Hall in Dublin, 15 April 1848. His presentation, which was described by one English paper as being comic and melodramatic, was inspired by a letter which was written by a woman, or perhaps by a man using a woman's name, and published in a newspaper just a few before that episode in Dublin.