New Build Help

yayamark

Hello all

Over the last few months I have been reading through the threads, loads of information, discussion and debate on apps to control a variety of items within your home.

I would consider myself "with it" when it comes to technology but some of what I read here is over my head, through no fault of anyone.

I'm hoping to start a new build during the year and would hope to have some of the technology been discussed in this forum in my home

I am looking for an app that will cover everything
Heating
Lighting
Security

not that bothered about music but if its included why not.

There are lots of products been reviewed here but I want someone to say go for this certain one, it is proven and reliable.

Thanks in advance

Eric Cartman

heating - honeywell evohome - seems to be the most comprehensive I can find and supports multiple zones, smart zoning with individual radiator control and even multiple sources if you were going for a heat pump / boiler combo.

security - how far do you want to go. I used to install IP security systems and know that you can go from a basic alarm and ring doorbell camera setup all the way to auto position cameras, gates that have ANPR to open gates, targeted floodlighting , even drone patrols if you were going full on mad.

lighting - KNX systems can control lights and wire in which is perfect for new builds , you can also get some knx heat / energy controls.

if you want to splash out a bit on full integration, Crestron look after the whole lot.

bk

Generally I don't think it is a good idea to have one app to control everything, you just end up with an inferior solution then using a separate app for each. Apps don't matter much anyone once you are finished with setup, you mostly end up using voice (Google Home, Alexa), motion, physical switches, etc. afterwards.

Heating - All the following are good, Netatmo, Nest, Hive, Tado, Evohome. I've Netatmo, it depends on what your needs are (multi-zones, hot water, underfloor heating, solar hot water, etc.).

Lighting - Philips Hue is hands down the best lighting ecosystem IMO. Nothing else comes even close.

Security - Security is still the weak aware of Home Automation IMO. Still a very undeserved aware. You will want a pretty standard security system, but one that can be remotely monitored and controlled. Siemen Vanderbilt make a good system.

There are also separately lots of IP cameras on the market, Canary, Logi Circle, Nest Cam, Arlo, Blink Cam, etc. I've the first two. They all have their pros and cons, again it depends on your needs, I'm not really blown away by any of them (in terms of subscriptions and IOT ecosystem integration).

Unfortunately as you see, there are no simple answers, every system has it's pro and cons and it depends on what you need.

I'd say PHilips Hue is closest to being the most reliable, but even that system has some cons (no built in switch).

FrankGrimes

Eric Cartman wrote: »

heating - honeywell evohome - seems to be the most comprehensive I can find and supports multiple zones, smart zoning with individual radiator control and even multiple sources if you were going for a heat pump / boiler combo.

security - how far do you want to go. I used to install IP security systems and know that you can go from a basic alarm and ring doorbell camera setup all the way to auto position cameras, gates that have ANPR to open gates, targeted floodlighting , even drone patrols if you were going full on mad.

lighting - KNX systems can control lights and wire in which is perfect for new builds , you can also get some knx heat / energy controls.

if you want to splash out a bit on full integration, Crestron look after the whole lot.

Haven't seen much mention of KNX from the research of options I've been doing, and what I've seen of it seemed more commercial than residential focused. What would be the advantages of KNX vs other options like Hue or z-wave? Can you use any switches with it or need to use specific ones?

I'll likely have an air/water heat pump, possibly with a secondary heat source also, controlling multiple zones on wet underfloor heating, so good to know Honeywell Evohome sounds like a potential option for that, will add it to my list to research, thanks.

FrankGrimes

bk wrote: »

I'd say PHilips Hue is closest to being the most reliable, but even that system has some cons (no built in switch).

No built in switch is a pretty significant limitation for some people. I've been playing around with Hue but have now decided against using it as it's just too confusing for visitors/babysitters. Also realised I will not use colour as much as I thought originally I might. And where I will use colour, it'll be in LED striplights so a Fibaro RGBW module gives the same options with more flexibility (ability to cut the strip easily to do several rows on a bookshelf etc., not sure Hue allows that?). I can understand Hue being best option for an existing house, but for a new build would have thought there are better options?

bk

FrankGrimes wrote: »

No built in switch is a pretty significant limitation for some people. I've been playing around with Hue but have now decided against using it as it's just too confusing for visitors/babysitters. Also realised I will not use colour as much as I thought originally I might. And where I will use colour, it'll be in LED striplights so a Fibaro RGBW module gives the same options with more flexibility (ability to cut the strip easily to do several rows on a bookshelf etc., not sure Hue allows that?). I can understand Hue being best option for an existing house, but for a new build would have thought there are better options?

Hue does have a switch it just isn't built in.

There really isn't any confusion, my quiet elderly parents (late 70's) have no issues using the Philips Switch nor do baby sitters, they barely even notice a difference.

Just cover the old switch and put the Philips switch next to it. They won't even realise the old switch is there. One trick though is to get Hue switches from the US, they specifically say ON/OFF on them, rather then I/O as on the EU ones.

If you want something neater, then remove the old switch, rewire the cables so it is always on and plaster over it (or use a plank plate) and put the Hue switch over where the old switch was.

Or if you want to keep the old switch use that nifty 3D printed job on done deal.

What I find priceless about Hue is White Ambiance, the ability to do different tones of white, depending if you are working or relaxing, etc.

I really don't think anything else comes even close to the Hue ecosystem for lighting.

BTW if you really want built in switches and doing a new build, you can actually do it with Zigbee and Z-Wave switches and Hue.

Just wire in your zigbee switch as a virtual switch. In other words, split the power going to the "switch" before the switch, so the basically both the switch and Hue light are always powered. Pressing the switch doesn't current off power to the bulb, instead it just sends signal to the controller to tell the controller to "virtually" switch off the bulb.

To the end user it all looks the same. This way, you get the best of both worlds. You get your fancy, built in momentary light switches and all the power of the Hue ecosystem.

bk

Using Philips Hue with Z-wave switches.

http://www.vesternet.com/resources/using-z-wave-and-philips-hue-together

FrankGrimes

bk wrote: »

Using Philips Hue with Z-wave switches.

http://www.vesternet.com/resources/using-z-wave-and-philips-hue-together

Thanks bk, I knew that with your clear deep knowledge inthe area there must be more to it, hence asking to find out more. And that's very interesting. I do like the idea of ambience white light flexibility in some cases. Sounds like you'd effectively be paying twice for a zwave module and a Hie bulb, but worth it for best of both worlds in some cases (e.g. Reading light flexibility in a lounge), and then just go plain zwave where standard white suffices (utility room etc). I plan on making good use of LED strips housed in diffuser casings and will have white ambience control on those, achieved with one zwave module, so don't think I'll need Hue in those cases.

bk

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Thanks bk, I knew that with your clear deep knowledge inthe area there must be more to it, hence asking to find out more. And that's very interesting. I do like the idea of ambience white light flexibility in some cases. Sounds like you'd effectively be paying twice for a zwave module and a Hie bulb, but worth it for best of both worlds in some cases (e.g. Reading light flexibility in a lounge), and then just go plain zwave where standard white suffices (utility room etc). I plan on making good use of LED strips housed in diffuser casings and will have white ambience control on those, achieved with one zwave module, so don't think I'll need Hue in those cases.

First of all, let me point out that I haven't done this myself, I just read about it. I haven't gotten any z-wave gear yet (I'm sure I will eventually), all Hue for the moment and very happy with it.

Yes, the upside is that it gives you the best of both worlds. Hue IMO is definitely the best lighting system and Z-wave has lots of great gadgets and switches.

The downside is you double your cost and worse, a lot of the z-wave stuff is quiet pricey. For instance z-wave switches typically around £50, when the Hue switch is just £20.

To be honest, I'm not sure what makes z-wave stuff so expensive, it isn't really doing anything different then Hue's zigbee. I guess just smaller companies with smaller economies of scale then Philips.

However z-wave can save you money, say you have a room with 6 GU10's. Well if you don't need the white ambiance etc., then one z-wave switch at £50 is a lot less then 6 * 22 = 132 for white ambiance Hue GU10 bulbs.

One thing, since we are talking about New Builds here on this thread, is that you don't necessarily have to run out and buy all these expensive z-wave switches and Hue Bulbs from the start.

Just make sure you have neutral at every switch and deep back boxes and you can always just go with bog standard switches and LED bulbs and then gradually replace them with z-wave switches and Hue bulbs over time.

As an aside, I have to say it is a pity that LightwaveRF don't use z-wave, their switches and plugs look really nice, much nicer then the Z-wave switches I've seen so far. Pity they don't expand into this area.

wexfordman2

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Haven't seen much mention of KNX from the research of options I've been doing, and what I've seen of it seemed more commercial than residential focused. What would be the advantages of KNX vs other options like Hue or z-wave? Can you use any switches with it or need to use specific ones?

I'll likely have an air/water heat pump, possibly with a secondary heat source also, controlling multiple zones on wet underfloor heating, so good to know Honeywell Evohome sounds like a potential option for that, will add it to my list to research, thanks.

If you are thinking of a topology like knx, then take a look at velbus as well.

Also, irrrspectovr of what you go for in the end, i would recommend adding cat5 feed to each ligjht switch position, running back to near your distribution board. For future proofing, this will allpw yoi add additional solitions latet on.

FrankGrimes

wexfordman2 wrote: »

If you are thinking of a topology like knx, then take a look at velbus as well.

Also, irrrspectovr of what you go for in the end, i would recommend adding cat5 feed to each ligjht switch position, running back to near your distribution board. For future proofing, this will allpw yoi add additional solitions latet on.

Thanks, have seen very little mention of KNX from all the reading up I've been doing, so will leave it out unless I come across some compelling info on it.

Have been debating whether or not to run cables to the switches - on one hand, no harm in case they go touchscreen/video screen in future. On the other hand, even some hardcore HA folks online seem to think it's overkill.

Also did some reading up and seems CAT6a over CAT5e is not the no-brainer I thought it would be due to the difficulty in ensuring a quality installation for the more fussy CAT6a performs as desired. Would just seem odd installing the same CAT5e cable I put into my current house 12 years ago, but does seem a lot more hassle for CAT6a benefits that may not prove useful until a few years down the line when a 1GB network has become insufficient (which seems a ways off).

wexfordman2

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Thanks, have seen very little mention of KNX from all the reading up I've been doing, so will leave it out unless I come across some compelling info on it..

KNX is around a long time and well established, but more a professional level solution, and expensive.

The topolgy however is common/similar to lots of other HA solutions, in that the wall switch is fed via data cables rather than 200v.

For this reason, not just KNX, I would if I was building a new home, add data cabling to the wall switches. There are numerous HA techs that can and will avail of this, including, KNX, EIB, CBUS, Velbus, Loxone, IDRATEK etc.

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Have been debating whether or not to run cables to the switches - on one hand, no harm in case they go touchscreen/video screen in future. On the other hand, even some hardcore HA folks online seem to think it's overkill.

I would consider myself a hardcore HA person :-) and I can see anyone realisticly saying that it is overkill. Not meaning to come accross as pushy or anything, but just look at the number of solutions I listed above which use or avail of data cabling to the wall switches to see how common it actually is, and thats not by any means a definitive list.

Putting in data cabling to the switches future proofs you and gives you loads of flexibility. Not one of my wall switches as a 220v cable going to it (and I am not saying thats what you should do), but the amount of flexibility it gives you is huge.

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Also did some reading up and seems CAT6a over CAT5e is not the no-brainer I thought it would be due to the difficulty in ensuring a quality installation for the more fussy CAT6a performs as desired. Would just seem odd installing the same CAT5e cable I put into my current house 12 years ago, but does seem a lot more hassle for CAT6a benefits that may not prove useful until a few years down the line when a 1GB network has become insufficient (which seems a ways off).

To clarfiy, when talking about wall switches for lighting, I dont think its relevant at all, just cat5 will do.
With respect to actual ethernet connections, I have cat5e to my data points, and I think that will last me out tbh. Now, my house is a bungalow, so not too difficult to add and upgrade cabling etc, so I am not too worried about it.

bk

wexfordman2 wrote: »

For this reason, not just KNX, I would if I was building a new home, add data cabling to the wall switches. There are numerous HA techs that can and will avail of this, including, KNX, EIB, CBUS, Velbus, Loxone, IDRATEK etc.

I would consider myself a hardcore HA person :-) and I can see anyone realisticly saying that it is overkill.

Err... Hate to be that person, but I think it is overkill!

Home Automation tech is very much heading towards wireless for control, z-wave/zigbee, so little need for ethernet at switches.

Sure all of the above use ethernet, but they are all horribly expensive and arguably overpriced professional setups. The consumer HA tech is pretty much totally bypassing these professional level systems and going directly to wireless and IMO offering much greater flexibility and capability at lower prices.

I suppose you could talk about video intercom type panels at switches, but even with those you would just use wifi.

IMO first priority is cat 6 to each room for future wireless access points and hard wiring media centers, HDMI over ethernet, etc.

Even if you don't use the cat5e/6 from day one, I think most people will end up using it in the long term (e.g. 60GHz wifi AP's).

Sure if you have money left over after that, I suppose you could run ethernet to switches too, but I have to say I think it really is massive overkill for most people and they will most likely not end up using it.

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

Err... Hate to be that person, but I think it is overkill!

Thats ok, your allowed :-)

bk wrote: »

Home Automation tech is very much heading towards wireless for control, z-wave/zigbee, so little need for ethernet at switches.

I think you might mis-understand, the cat5 is not for ethernet, it is providing a twisted pair cable to the switch for connection of manual inputs, sensors, momentary switches, or vendor specific powered devices/controlers. Not for ethernet. None of the solutions I listed above require ethernet at the switch.

bk wrote: »

Sure all of the above use ethernet, but they are all horribly expensive and arguably overpriced professional setups.

Sorry, I disagree. Like I said, none of the above use ethernet, they use cat 5 cable as part of the wiring topology. As for price, well 50 euros will get you up and running with a smart controlled light switch using velbus for example, and you can have a pretty much limitless number of bulbs connected. So, comparing my living room for example, which has 7 x gu10 led bulbs, controlled by one velbus relay at a cost of 50 euro against a zigbee/hue solution which would cost nearly 200 euro..and...normal switching, no batteries, anything like that.

bk wrote: »

The consumer HA tech is pretty much totally bypassing these professional level systems and going directly to wireless and IMO offering much greater flexibility and capability at lower prices.

I agree to a point, I think the devices requiring specialist installers will die out and be replaced by more everyday off the shelf solutions, but this will not be a wireless only solution.

bk wrote: »

I suppose you could talk about video intercom type panels at switches, but even with those you would just use wifi.

Like above, I am not talking about ethernet at the lightswitch, I agree that would be ott.

bk wrote: »

IMO first priority is cat 6 to each room for future wireless access points and hard wiring media centers, HDMI over ethernet, etc.

100% agree!

bk wrote: »

Even if you don't use the cat5e/6 from day one, I think most people will end up using it in the long term (e.g. 60GHz wifi AP's).

100% agree! The caveat, is where possible wired is always better, then wireless for fallback and low speed solutions, dont ever plan wireless as a first choice for video streaming etc.

bk wrote: »

Sure if you have money left over after that, I suppose you could run ethernet to switches too, but I have to say I think it really is massive overkill for most people and they will most likely not end up using it.

Ethernet to swithes, yes, thats massive overkill, but cat5 to switches, I think it would be mad not to do it in a new build or renovation.

bk

wexfordman2, sorry, yes of course, I shouldn't have said "ethernet", I don't know why I said that!

I'm well aware that cat5/5e/6 etc. can carry a lot more then just ethernet! HDMI over cat5e/6, audio, telephone, video, even power. I make that point myself all the time on this forum about HDMI over cat5e/6, so I don't know why I made that brain fart and wrote ethernet!

However it doesn't really change my point that cat5 at switches is overkill for very low bandwidth HA signalling. Z-wave/zigbee mesh networking does the job just fine in a typical home *

* Off course wired solutions will continue to be needed for large commercial setups, office buildings, apartments, etc. But we are talking about typical home builds here.

I would argue that the priorities for spending money are:

1) cat5e/6 to every room for wireless access points.

2) Extra cat5e/6 drops to every room for ethernet for hard wired devices, media centers, game consoles, etc. and for doing HDMI over ethernet.

3) Extra deep back boxes and neutral at every switch.

If after doing all the above, you still have budget left, then absolutely no problem, go ahead and ask your electrician for a quote and if it isn't too much, then sure, no harm putting cat5 at switches. But honestly I would suspect most people will never end up using it, so it would be largely end up a waste for most IMO.

I certainly wouldn't spend money doing it over the above three priorities first.

BTW Yes, you are absolutely correct, every device that has an ethernet port, you should use it, to keep as many devices off the wifi network as possible. That is what I have done at my place which is pre-wired for cat5e ethernet.

However we also need to admit that increasingly a lot of devices are coming without ethernet ports and are expected to be portable around the home. So the next best option for those is multiple wifi access points throughout the home, which use ethernet as backhaul.

beanian

bk wrote: »

1) cat5e/6 to every room for wireless access points.

2) Extra cat5e/6 drops to every room for ethernet for hard wired devices, media centers, game consoles, etc. and for doing HDMI over ethernet.

3) Extra deep back boxes and neutral at every switch.

This.

I bought a house last year and got it completely renovated including a full rewire and have to agree with BK's list.
I got 8x CAT 5e drops to my entertainment center. Then one drop to every room in the house and also the hall for the alarm panel
They all terminate to a network cabinet in the attic.

45mm back boxes in all switches, deeper if possible. This makes life so much easier when installing relays behind light switches.

Also think about things like speaker wires for surround sound (bury them behind coving if possible), burying HDMI cables in walls & high plug sockets for sonos speakers or the like. Not really HA related but good to have a think about now rather then later.

Stoner

wexfordman2 wrote:

To clarfiy, when talking about wall switches for lighting, I dont think its relevant at all, just cat5 will do. With respect to actual ethernet connections, I have cat5e to my data points, and I think that will last me out tbh. Now, my house is a bungalow, so not too difficult to add and upgrade cabling etc, so I am not too worried about it.

Just put in CAT 6
Forget cat5A, cat 5 is finished now.

I know you know this but for Frank I think looking at cat 6 and not cat 6a is the thing to consider, not cat5A or cat 6a

I've cat 6a cabling in my house for years, but have cat5e outlets and cert.

I've never upgraded same.

You've had great solutions over time.

I've had a few myself. I still think cabling to switches is a good idea, but over all I think cabling is on the way out, if the cat 5 could be used to charge batteries on switches like the ring doorbell it would add to it's use

Then there's switches that charge a cell with the kenetic energy from pressing it.

I can't see knx ever reaching the home market now either , have a friend in ABB and he we sampled a power point or two. It was crazy money and he had a staff discount.

The apps are not there either it's still pricy

I see the Philips hue kit is getting "full" very quickly now so not a good on for full wireless.

I still like the fabrio kit , that will work with either solution.

Thing is the cabling is expensive. Regardless of who can and can't do it too. But LV cabling is a different ball game.

Also dont forget what this kit looks like.

Some of it is manky looking.