Farmers on the roads!

Pkiernan

Some of these are pretty scary. Especially the 3 wheeled tractor. ..

http://m.independent.ie/business/farming/machinery/debate-rages-after-gardai-stop-driver-with-overweight-trailer-load-of-straw-35564433.html

Pkiernan

https://mobile.twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/833983691974176768

washman3

Personally, I can see little wrong with the load of straw. Well balanced and very well strapped down. No way is he carrying 9.5 ton, its not even half that. Its straw FFS not sand. Any Garda with an ounce of common sense should know that, but then again common sense has totally gone out the window these days.
The guys truck and trailer appear in very good condition, his lights are not in any way obscured by the load.

Isambard

washman3 wrote: »

Personally, I can see little wrong with the load of straw. Well balanced and very well strapped down. No way is he carrying 9.5 ton, its not even half that. Its straw FFS not sand. Any Garda with an ounce of common sense should know that, but then again common sense has totally gone out the window these days.
The guys truck and trailer appear in very good condition, his lights are not in any way obscured by the load.

Oh that's alright then, I suppose "Gardai said there was no tachograph in use and the driver had no Certificate of Competency" doesn't matter either?.

vicwatson

Great to see gardai taking this issue onboard. Tractors all over the roads without lights, reg plates, pulling dirt out of fields onto public roads not washing them down and making them lethal for motorists and cyclists. Time for a clamp down.

r3nu4l

I've no problem with tractors on the road as long as their vehicles and loads are safe.

However these examples are just samples of the overall endemic disregard for safety that exists in farming. No wonder we see so many farmers and their kids killed in accidents. Far more regulation needed in farming, despite what the farmers say.

moleyv

Without even going into the weight issue, that trailer clearly isn't designed to do what it is being used for.

jay48

Isambard wrote: »

Oh that's alright then, I suppose "Gardai said there was no tachograph in use and the driver had no Certificate of Competency" doesn't matter either?.

I'm no expert but from what I can see on the rsa website a farmer could be exempt from the cpc as driving the truck is not his main employment and he is using it to transport his own goods . He could also be exempt from the tacho regulations as he is driving a truck that transports livestock .

Isambard

jay48 wrote: »

I'm no expert but from what I can see on the rsa website a farmer could be exempt from the cpc as driving the truck is not his main employment and he is using it to transport his own goods . He could also be exempt from the tacho regulations as he is driving a truck that transports livestock .

well I suppose it would be reasonable to consider the Gards more expert than you

Fiskar

Yeah, quite scary on the roads at the moment, some of these tractors have no licence plates and I don't believe they are all insured to be on the roads. Take care especially on back roads and Regional roads.

conditioned games

Isambard wrote: »

well I suppose it would be reasonable to consider the Gards more expert than you

I'm all for safety but this was a poor example. Load was secure, plates and lights shown. I don't agree targeting those that abide by the law because of a nasty opinion against farmers. Those that warrant a craic down then good but this was a bad example.

Noveight

The next few months will see more tractors on the roads for the silage and harvest seasons. At least most of them will be contractors machines which tend to be newer and well minded.

Red Kev

conditioned games wrote: »

I'm all for safety but this was a poor example. Load was secure, plates and lights shown. I don't agree targeting those that abide by the law because of a nasty opinion against farmers. Those that warrant a craic down then good but this was a bad example.

The weight looks fine to me, I'm going at a weight of about 200kg per round bale 250 kg max if damp.

The load is too wide, it goes over 2.5m on top. I'm using the basis that the bales are at least 4 ft. wide, possibly 5 ft.

The driver should also have them strapped over the sides as well as there's a possibility that they'll slip in a corner.



You point above about the tacho for carrying livestock is incorrect incidentally. You need a tacho to move a truck on public roads for livestock, it doesn't matter even if you were driving your own truck moving them a short distance between your own land-you still need one.

jay48

Just going by what it says on the rsa site ,
' s. Vehicles used for the carriage of live animals from farms to local markets and vice versa or from local markets to local slaughter houses within a radius of up to 100 km '

Indeed I am probably wrong on this but if I was a farmer and read that I would take it I didn't necessarily need a tacho , having said that , it takes 30 seconds to put in a card and the issue doesn't arise .

ironclaw

washman3 wrote: »

Personally, I can see little wrong with the load of straw. Well balanced and very well strapped down.

Have you ever been on a farm around said bales? I'd recommend you try lift one, even more so if its been allowed sit or has been rained on. It could easily weigh more than a ton. People, mainly kids tragically, have been killed by bales rolling or falling on them. One of the most dangerous things in a farm yard is a badly constructed stack of square bales. Now, get that bale moving at 60 to 80km/h and let it fly, it'll flatten your car and take you with it.

The Gardai were right to stop them.

tabby aspreme

If a round bale of straw contained enough water to weigh a ton it would be impossible to load as it would fall apart , the average weight of that size of bale is 150 kgs, according to Teagasc,

GM228

Hay weights here.

Red Kev

jay48 wrote: »

Just going by what it says on the rsa site ,
' s. Vehicles used for the carriage of live animals from farms to local markets and vice versa or from local markets to local slaughter houses within a radius of up to 100 km '

Indeed I am probably wrong on this but if I was a farmer and read that I would take it I didn't necessarily need a tacho , having said that , it takes 30 seconds to put in a card and the issue doesn't arise .

Fair enough, I stand corrected. I knew that was the case years ago when I did my licence, but I thought it had been dropped due to some EU rules.

My bad.

me_right_one

That looks to me like an Isuzu NPR or NQR. They only require a B license to drive, therefore no tacho necessary

selectamatic

ironclaw wrote: »

Have you ever been on a farm around said bales? I'd recommend you try lift one, even more so if its been allowed sit or has been rained on. It could easily weigh more than a ton.

The wettest round bale of silage made by the biggest fusion baler McHale make still doesn't weigh a tonne. So no a 4x4 bale of straw or hay won't weigh next nor near a tonne. They're not even half that.

A lot of the backlash from the farming community towards regulation change stems from the fact that many many times such changes are called for by people who don't have much of a clue what they're talking about.

pablo128

me_right_one wrote: »

That looks to me like an Isuzu NPR or NQR. They only require a B license to drive, therefore no tacho necessary

They can be rated down to 3500kg gross but they are a 5 ton truck to begin with. They weigh at least 2 ton so can only be loaded with 1.5 ton at most without a tacho.

I know because I drive a curtainsider npr now and then.

Chester Copperpot

Noveight wrote: »

The next few months will see more tractors on the roads for the silage and harvest seasons. At least most of them will be contractors machines which tend to be newer and well minded.

Problem in relation to that is the age of some of the drivers and the hots they are working. Then let loose on the roads with heavy equipment

Isambard

there's about 40 round bales there, at say three to the tonne, that's a load of 13 tonnes. AT four to the tonne it's still 10 tonnes and it's still a driver with no CPC and not using the tacho.

Who'd have known so many farmer's are on Boards Motors!

me_right_one

Isambard wrote: »

there's about 40 round bales there, at say three to the tonne, that's a load of 13 tonnes. AT four to the tonne it's still 10 tonnes and it's still a driver with no CPC and not using the tacho.

Who'd have known so many farmer's are on Boards Motors!

I count 9 round, 4 square. What picture are you looking at?

Del2005

Isambard wrote: »

well I suppose it would be reasonable to consider the Gards more expert than you

The Gardaí regularly tell people that they need a 4x4 to tow a twin axle trailer.

Del2005

Isambard wrote: »

there's about 40 round bales there, at say three to the tonne, that's a load of 13 tonnes. AT four to the tonne it's still 10 tonnes and it's still a driver with no CPC and not using the tacho.

Who'd have known so many farmer's are on Boards Motors!

CPC is only required for professional drivers and as already posted no need for a tachograph.

Odelay

Isambard wrote: »

there's about 40 round bales there, at say three to the tonne, that's a load of 13 tonnes. AT four to the tonne it's still 10 tonnes and it's still a driver with no CPC and not using the tacho.

Who'd have known so many farmer's are on Boards Motors!

40 round bales??? Are you a Garda??

Noveight

Chester Copperpot wrote: »

Problem in relation to that is the age of some of the drivers and the hots they are working. Then let loose on the roads with heavy equipment

No serious contractor will have a young and/or unlicensed driver on the roads. A cowboys outfit, maybe, but those type of people are in every walk of life and generally don't last for long.

Also irregardless of age the types of lads who make machinery dangerous are seldom hired for a 2nd or 3rd season, simply not worth the risk to the contractor themselves.

Isambard

Odelay wrote: »

40 round bales??? Are you a Garda??

i interpret the photo as large round on the trailer and small on top of and of course inside the truck. It's an estimate.

Melodeon

Isambard wrote: »

i interpret the photo as large round on the trailer and small on top of and of course inside the truck. It's an estimate.

There are 9 round bales on the trailer, and 4 (or 5) big squares on top of the truck.
What's IN the truck is a mystery.

GM228

Del2005 wrote: »

CPC is only required for professional drivers and as already posted no need for a tachograph.

Actually, that isn't entirely correct, it's not actually for professional drivers, but rather for drivers involved in commercial activities. Once a driver of an appropriate vehicle with the appropriate licence is driving for commercial purposes they need a CPC.

There was a UK court case regarding this in 2015 over a farmer bringing livestock for sale and the court confirmed he did require a CPC in accordance with the provisions of EU Directive 2003/59/EC which became law in the UK around 2014.

Can't find the case now but it is mentioned as an example on the DVLA website.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driver-cpc-exemptions-examples#who-needs-to-have-driver-cpc

Example 5:

farmer transporting livestock for auction

A farmer transports some of their livestock to a local cattle market for auction around once a month.

They need Driver CPC, as they’re not carrying materials or equipment for their use in the course of their work -they’re carrying livestock intended for sale.

Also vehicles used to carry live animals from farms to local markets, or from markets to local farms or slaughterhouses more than 100km in distance require a tachograph. That's a specific ecemption which applies to carrying livestock to a market or for slaughter, hay isn't livestock.

ganmo

GM228 wrote: »

Actually, that isn't entirely correct, it's not actually for professional drivers, but rather for drivers involved in commercial activities. Once a driver of an appropriate vehicle with the appropriate licence is driving for commercial purposes they need a CPC.

There was a UK court case regarding this in 2015 over a farmer bringing livestock for sale and the court confirmed he did require a CPC in accordance with the provisions of EU Directive 2003/59/EC which became law in the UK around 2014.

Can't find the case now but it is mentioned as an example on the DVLA website.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driver-cpc-exemptions-examples#who-needs-to-have-driver-cpc



Also vehicles used to carry live animals from farms to local markets, or from markets to local farms or slaughterhouses more than 100km in distance require a tachograph. That's a specific ecemption which applies to carrying livestock to a market or for slaughter, hay isn't livestock.

last i checked this the gardai only operated in Ireland so what does a uk court case have to do with this?

paddysdream

Isambard wrote: »

i interpret the photo as large round on the trailer and small on top of and of course inside the truck. It's an estimate.

Are you sure you ain't a Guard as those sort of estimates and guesses were in the news recently regarding Garda ability to count.

Regarding the photo,as far as I can see there are 9 4x4 bales on the ifor williams.Being generous and allowing for very well packed bales at 170kgs each thats 1500kgs approx on a trailer rated to either 2800 or 3500kgs.
The 5 big square bales on the roof of the body would be maybe 300 to 350 kgs each at the very most giving another 1500 kgs or so.
Regarding inside the body (which even with radar like eyesight which seems to be issued in Templemore) the most you would fit would be maybe another 3 or 4 round bales.
40 bales would be almost 2 full rows on 40ft. artic trailer and I should know as I load them on a regular basis each and every year.

Isambard

Isambard wrote: »

Oh that's alright then, I suppose "Gardai said there was no tachograph in use and the driver had no Certificate of Competency" doesn't matter either?.

Why the hell should he have a tachograph moving a few bales of hay up the road, use common sense ffs.

Il add I'm from city and don't know anyone who farms but that's ridiculous, tachograph on that, Jesus.

GM228

ganmo wrote: »

last i checked this the gardai only operated in Ireland so what does a uk court case have to do with this?

You are missing the point I'm making, Ireland and the UK (and indeed the rest of Europe) are singing off the same hymn sheet, namely the EU Directive 2003/59/EC which has been transposed into Irish law via the European Communities (Vehicle Drivers Certificate of Professional Competence) (No. 2) Regulations 2008.

The UK case confirmed as does Irish law that the scope of the EU directive included ALL vehicles of categories C, C1, C+E, C1+E, D, D1, D+E or D1+E with the following vehicle exceptions:-

(a) has a maximum authorised speed not exceeding 45 kilometres per hour,

(b) is used by, or under the control of—

(i) the Garda Síochána,

(ii) the Defence Forces

(iii) a fire brigade, or

(iv) the Civil Defence,

(c) is undergoing road tests for technical development, repair or maintenance purposes,

(d) is new or rebuilt and has not yet been put into service,

(e) is used in a state of emergency or in rescue missions,

(f) is used by a person in the course of a driving lesson or a driving test for the purposes of obtaining a driving licence or a CPC,

(g) is used for the carriage of passengers or goods for personal use and not for commercial purposes, or

(h) is carrying material or equipment for use by the driver in the course of his or her work, provided that the driving of the vehicle is not the driver’s principal activity or occupation.

Farmers are afforded the exemption of point (g)/(h) if for example they transport livestock from one of their fields to another one, but if transporting to market for example that is a commercial activity and the exemption does not apply. It is something which comes up as a question in the CPC course and also something which was on the AG guidnce notes issued to members of the Gardaí.

ganmo

GM228 wrote: »

You are missing the point I'm making, Ireland and the UK (and indeed the rest of Europe) are singing off the same hymn sheet, namely the EU Directive 2003/59/EC which has been transposed into Irish law via the European Communities (Vehicle Drivers Certificate of Professional Competence) (No. 2) Regulations 2008.

The UK case confirmed as does Irish law that the scope of the EU directive included ALL vehicles of categories C, C1, C+E, C1+E, D, D1, D+E or D1+E with the following vehicle exceptions:-

(a) has a maximum authorised speed not exceeding 45 kilometres per hour,

(b) is used by, or under the control of—

(i) the Garda Síochána,

(ii) the Defence Forces

(iii) a fire brigade, or

(iv) the Civil Defence,

(c) is undergoing road tests for technical development, repair or maintenance purposes,

(d) is new or rebuilt and has not yet been put into service,

(e) is used in a state of emergency or in rescue missions,

(f) is used by a person in the course of a driving lesson or a driving test for the purposes of obtaining a driving licence or a CPC,

(g) is used for the carriage of passengers or goods for personal use and not for commercial purposes, or

(h) is carrying material or equipment for use by the driver in the course of his or her work, provided that the driving of the vehicle is not the driver’s principal activity or occupation.

Farmers are afforded the exemption of point (g) if for example they transport livestock from one of their fields to another one, but if transporting to market for example that is a commercial activity and the exemption does not apply. It is something which comes up as a question in the CPC course and also something which was on the AG guidnce notes issued to members of the Gardaí.

http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Professional-Drivers/Owners-and-managers/Road-haulage-enforcement/

not according to the rsa, they say there's a blanket livestock exception

GM228

ganmo wrote: »

http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Professional-Drivers/Owners-and-managers/Road-haulage-enforcement/

not according to the rsa, they say there's a blanket livestock exception

That's for a Road Haulage Operators Licence which is totally seperate to a CPC.

paddysdream

GM228 wrote: »

That's for a Road Haulage Operators Licence which is totally seperate to a CPC.

Exemption no. 3 as taken from the RSA website.
Exemptions

Driver CPC certification is not required for drivers of vehicles used:

• For non-commercial purposes, eg driving as a volunteer; drivers of emergency or rescue vehicles eg Gardai, Defence forces, Ambulance and Irish Prison service.
• For a registered RSA approved Driving Instructors who are giving driving instruction.
• In the course of someone’s work, provided that driving the vehicle is not the driver’s principal occupation, eg, a plumber using a light truck to transport their materials.

Driving a vehicle would not be a farmers principal occupation.
Regarding a tacograph,although one is present in lorries hauling grain at harvest,milk,livestock etc ,as far as I am aware the driver is not governed by the hours rules etc ie the taco must be there but is of no relevance.

The law is a quare yoke and even those in the RTC and even the RSA might not know all the ins and outs of each and every bit.Seen an RSA official have his arse(and his rule book) handed to him at a checkpoint when it was pointed out to him the actual facts(as clearly printed in the rule book he had) regarding the haulage of a certain agricultural by product.

GM228

paddysdream wrote: »

Exemption no. 3 as taken from the RSA website.
Exemptions

Driver CPC certification is not required for drivers of vehicles used:

• For non-commercial purposes, eg driving as a volunteer; drivers of emergency or rescue vehicles eg Gardai, Defence forces, Ambulance and Irish Prison service.
• For a registered RSA approved Driving Instructors who are giving driving instruction.
• In the course of someone’s work, provided that driving the vehicle is not the driver’s principal occupation, eg, a plumber using a light truck to transport their materials.

Driving a vehicle would not be a farmers principal occupation.
Regarding a tacograph,although one is present in lorries hauling grain at harvest,milk,livestock etc ,as far as I am aware the driver is not governed by the hours rules etc ie the taco must be there but is of no relevance.

The law is a quare yoke and even those in the RTC and even the RSA might not know all the ins and outs of each and every bit.Seen an RSA official have his arse(and his rule book) handed to him at a checkpoint when it was pointed out to him the actual facts(as clearly printed in the rule book he had) regarding the haulage of a certain agricultural by product.

The part in bold is spot on, however I deal with the actual law (legislation/case law/EU law etc) and not what the RSA state on their website.

The law states the exemption as:-

carrying material or equipment for use by the driver in the course of his or her work, provided that the driving of the vehicle is not the driver’s principal activity or occupation.

Carrying material or equipment for use by the driver in their work is the qualifying condition for the exemption, this would apply to the likes of builders, mechanics, plumbers, electricians etc carrying tools, electric wires, pipes, blocks etc, animals are not materials or equipment.

You need to remember that the requirements of CPC and the exemptions are set by EU law.

The UK has confirmed that EU law requires a CPC for farmers tranporting livestock as has the Attorney General in advice to the Gardaí.

In 2015 the European Parliament in reply to this very question put to it by Estonia (question E-008370-15) confirmed when asked about a farmer transporting livestock that exemptions for the agri sector although previously discussed by member states where not adopted. However they did note a problem identified is related to unclarities and differences in application of the exemptions and that they are currently assessing how to appropriately follow-up on the problems identified, until they address the issue and the law is updated to give a specific exemption then they do require a CPC.

paddysdream

GM228 wrote: »

The actual law states the exemption as:-



Carrying material or equipment for use by the driver in their work is the qualifying condition for the exemption, this would apply to the likes of builders, mechanics, plumbers, electricians etc carrying tools, electric wires, pipes, blocks etc, animals are not materials or equipment.

You need to remember that the requirements of CPC and the exemptions are set by EU law.

The UK has confirmed that EU law requires a CPC for farmers tranporting livestock as has the Attorney General in advice to the Gardaí.

In 2015 the European Parliament in reply to this very question put to it by Estonia (question E-008370-15) confirmed when asked about a farmer transporting livestock that exemptions for the agri sector although previously discussed by member states where not adopted.

I think you will find that bales of straw are materials.When in a hole you should really stop digging.
I deal with reality each and every day and am probably on the road with either livestock or bales 3 days a week on average.
Despite all your knowledge re. the more intricate parts of EU and Irish law,the practical answer is that no farmer has,needs or is being asked for a cpc when drawing livestock,which is not even mentioned in either the OP or the Garda Twiter ac.
The laws pertaining to haulage are rather complex and many are open to the interpetation of the Garda you meet.
Sometimes real life supercedes internet expert opinion.

GM228

paddysdream wrote: »

I think you will find that bales of straw are materials.When in a hole you should really stop digging.

I think you will find I was talking about livestock, bales of hay are not livestock so your point is irrelevant.

It came up when a poster stated only "professional" drivers required a CPC which is not correct and I pointed out why, not once did I say it was required for hay.

ganmo

GM228 wrote: »

I think you will find I was talking about livestock, bales of hay are not livestock so your point is irrelevant.

It came up when a poster stated only "professional" drivers required a CPC which is not correct and I pointed out why, not once did I say it was required for hay.

Could ya link to the regulation you are referring to

paddysdream

GM228 wrote: »

I think you will find I was talking about livestock, bales of hay are not livestock so your point is irrelevant.

It came up when a poster stated only "professional" drivers required a CPC which is not correct and I pointed out why, not once did I say it was required for hay.

Not doubting you but do you really believe that those farmers bringing cattle or sheep to a factory etc are needing a piece of paper stating they paid a few quid to someone to talk about things that have no relation to reality and passed an "exam" ?
Hows about they pulled the trailer with a private vehicle(car) and not a commercially taxed one?
Why are builders materials considered different or is that just used as an example ?
Serious questions!

susign

Del2005 wrote:

CPC is only required for professional drivers and as already posted no need for a tachograph.

r3nu4l wrote:

However these examples are just samples of the overall endemic disregard for safety that exists in farming. No wonder we see so many farmers and their kids killed in accidents. Far more regulation needed in farming, despite what the farmers say.

Horrific and horrible things have happened to farm families due to accidents. Most of us are well aware of the dangers and my biggest fear is what could happen if a child gets out and about, unfortunately we don't only have to watch the safety gates on our stairs or the child proof locks on our kitchen presses but an entire farm needs to be secure. It's a massive problem and always will be a risk with safety on farm but those photos don't reflect what caused the majority of the tragedies that happened. Your comment is generalized, exaggerated and ignorant to the facts.

Silvera

One area of agricultural work which needs urgent regulation is the practice of letting 16 year olds onto public roads driving tractors - often with huge trailers on tow - with NO training.

Case in point - I recently saw a young male driver in a large tractor with a large silage trailer on tow turning left as a car approached in front of him. He almost took the roof off the car - due to the tail-swing of the trailer - but just kept on driving / turning left. I'd be fairly sure if this was pointed out to him he wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about.

A day (or even a half-day) of compulsory tractor + trailer handling / training would at least make such drivers aware of the dangers associated with operating heavy machinery.

Sam Kade

washman3 wrote: »

Personally, I can see little wrong with the load of straw. Well balanced and very well strapped down. No way is he carrying 9.5 ton, its not even half that. Its straw FFS not sand. Any Garda with an ounce of common sense should know that, but then again common sense has totally gone out the window these days.
The guys truck and trailer appear in very good condition, his lights are not in any way obscured by the load.

Gardaí over reacting again a 4x4 round bale weights 150kg. There's a weigh bridge 2 miles out the road from where he was stopped that the Gardaí regularly use but obviously didn't on that occasion. If there are no bales in the lorry the load would weigh slightly less than 2 tonne.
https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/animals/dairy/Bale_size.pdf

Sam Kade

Isambard wrote: »

well I suppose it would be reasonable to consider the Gards more expert than you

I had a garda ask me one time should my 3 year old car have an nct.

Sam Kade

ironclaw wrote: »

Have you ever been on a farm around said bales? I'd recommend you try lift one, even more so if its been allowed sit or has been rained on. It could easily weigh more than a ton. People, mainly kids tragically, have been killed by bales rolling or falling on them. One of the most dangerous things in a farm yard is a badly constructed stack of square bales. Now, get that bale moving at 60 to 80km/h and let it fly, it'll flatten your car and take you with it.

The Gardai were right to stop them.

A round bale of straw weighing over a tonne :rolleyes: A round bale of silage bale green with 75% moisture might weigh 750kgs max, not a hope of straw bales reaching that weight and wet bales are useless.

dr.fuzzenstein

Melodeon wrote: »

There are 9 round bales on the trailer, and 4 (or 5) big squares on top of the truck.
What's IN the truck is a mystery.

35 bales on the driver's seat going by Isambard logic. See, you gotta think these things through logically!