Joining TUI ?

getting worse

I am a secondary teacher working in a private fee paying school and have been teaching as a qualified teacher since 2011, but was initially paid privately and so I am on the third pay scale. I am now fully paid by the department and am due to get my C I D in Sept 2017. I am not a member of any union.

My Principal has sent off the forms to the department and included a note to say that "I intend to join the TUI". He believes that I won't be given a C I D unless I am a TUI member. Personally I am would not prefer not to join TUI, but I do require the security of the C I D.

Any views or advice?

r93kaey5p2izun

I didn't think TUI accepted members from fee charging schools?

evolving_doors

The Dept will recognise your service since 2011 and put you onto the corresponding payscale.

Dunno what your principal is at with the TUI?

getting worse

My service has been recognised and I am on the appropriate point but on the lowest scale. (while people I did the PGDE with are on the highest scale, because they did some supervision work paid for by the department during their dip year and then went on department paid jobs but that is another story),

As I am non union in what is an ASTI school, (although very few of the staff are actually in the union), I am treated like an ASTI member and principal believes that I won't therefore be offered the CID.

joebloggs32

getting worse wrote: »

My service has been recognised and I am on the appropriate point but on the lowest scale. (while people I did the PGDE with are on the highest scale, because they did some supervision work paid for by the department during their dip year and then went on department paid jobs but that is another story),

As I am non union in what is an ASTI school, (although very few of the staff are actually in the union), I am treated like an ASTI member and principal believes that I won't therefore be offered the CID.

How long are you in your current school?

evolving_doors

How long are you on the Dept contract ?

rainbowtrout

I presume the OP has done 2 years on department hours in the school so under the Ward Report would be entitled to a CID if he is a TUI member. Otherwise the principal would not have those reservations and the OP would have to wait until four years have passed.

The main thrust of this is that the OP wants the conditions of TUI members without joining TUI and paying a subscription to the union. If they want the CID, join TUI, it's that simple.

But I also suspect as the OP is working in a fee paying school that all the staff are ASTI, so joining TUI to get a 2 year CID may not go down well with staff.

Jamfa

I don't think the TUI accept members from fee charging schools as they actively campaign against fee charging schools.

evolving_doors

Jamfa wrote: »

I don't think the TUI accept members from fee charging schools as they actively campaign against fee charging schools.

Well they don't accept membership from privately paid teachers anyhow. But for dept. paid in a fee charging school I'm not sure.

Just going by their application form
http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/Memebership%20Form%202016.pdf It doesn't mention a proposer or seconder... does that mean once you're application form is received in the office and accreted then that's that?

So basically it would seem that you could submit your application.... if they accept it then you're in.

Next step Set up the payroll payment and then I presume the dept. of ed would check you're on the TUI column of their files for the purposes of 2 year CID's.

EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong but can't a school offer a CID at any time? ( The whole 2 yr/ 4 yr thing is the maximum length that a school can refuse you one).

r93kaey5p2izun

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Well they don't accept membership from privately paid teachers anyhow. But for dept. paid in a fee charging school I'm not sure.

Just going by their application form
http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/Memebership%20Form%202016.pdf It doesn't mention a proposer or seconder... does that mean once you're application form is received in the office and accreted then that's that?

So basically it would seem that you could submit your application.... if they accept it then you're in.

Next step Set up the payroll payment and then I presume the dept. of ed would check you're on the TUI column of their files for the purposes of 2 year CID's.

Each applicant must be approved by the relevant branch at the next meeting. AFAIK they do not deal with fee charging schools at all. They have a policy looking for an end to state funding for teachers in fee charging schools. But with the recent carry on over apparently ignoring ICTU rules and accepting those leaving ASTI then anything is possible.

evolving_doors

Stephanie Shy Numeral wrote: »

Each applicant must be approved by the relevant branch at the next meeting. AFAIK they do not deal with fee charging schools at all. They have a policy looking for an end to state funding for teachers in fee charging schools. But with the recent carry on over apparently ignoring ICTU rules and accepting those leaving ASTI then anything is possible.

the POV of not dealing with fee charging schools wouldn't affect the OP though.. (unless a dispute with the school actually took place on the OP's behalf, also there would be no rep on the ground ). From the perspective of the OP they just need their name on a dept. database with TUI after it.

So,if the applicant needs to be approved a the next meeting do they:
1. need a rep/member to propose them
or
2. Is there just a list of names read out and it's up to anyone to object. If there's no objection then their in.
Am I reading that correctly (I'm not familiar with TUI procedures and found it unusual that the application form didn't ask for a proposer or seconder!).

mtoutlemonde

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Well they don't accept membership from privately paid teachers anyhow. But for dept. paid in a fee charging school I'm not sure.

Just going by their application form
http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/Memebership%20Form%202016.pdf It doesn't mention a proposer or seconder... does that mean once you're application form is received in the office and accreted then that's that?

So basically it would seem that you could submit your application.... if they accept it then you're in.

Next step Set up the payroll payment and then I presume the dept. of ed would check you're on the TUI column of their files for the purposes of 2 year CID's.

EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong but can't a school offer a CID at any time? ( The whole 2 yr/ 4 yr thing is the maximum length that a school can refuse you one).

That's what I had heard - can anyone clarify? I'm sure if it were true, principals would only love give CIDs to teachers who have proved themselves and are worthy of a CID.

TheDriver

If its a sec school, then only asti has representation. You may as well be INMO as management doesn't have to talk to TUI. At moment, I thought that dept has everyone in that type of school painted with asti brush which means no CID until after year 4. Joining TUI in that school is futile and waste of money. Same way everyone in a non designated comm college is assumed to be TUI whether a member or not. Comm schools, designated comm college and comprehensives are a mixture.

evolving_doors

Then essentially it's up to the person who opens the op's application to spot that the school isn't in their remit. So let's say you are receiving about 5 applications that day, do you have to research every detail? or is it a case of:
Open letter... transfer data to computer... add name to list for ratification... no objections at meeting... send membership number.
As we've heard earlier (anecdotally) others have slipped through the system.
There might be a discrepancy between what is supposed to happen and what actually happens.

TheDriver

True but I don't think it will get u a cid when they don't have negotiating rights

evolving_doors

TheDriver wrote: »

True but I don't think it will get u a cid when they don't have negotiating rights

But I don't think the Dept. Of Ed will care about negotiating rights. That only matters in the case of a dispute.
Once they look through payroll and see TUI standing order then I reckon that's as far as they'd dig.
It's just a paperwork requirement.

getting worse

Thanks for all comments. Just to clarify I did PGDE starting Sept 2010 and took up a full time privately paid position in Sept 2011 and have been paid by the department since Sept 2015. I have got full credit for all teaching years.

My school has a very low union membership and I did not join the ASTI, mainly because of their position on LPTs, who I felt were let down by the Unions. As things stand therefore I am not at all happy about having to join the TUI who I feel have not supported LPTs. On the other hand, I do want to have the security of a CID, and would probably end up joining the union. How long I would stay in that union is of course another matter.

TheDriver

Gebgbegb wrote: »

But I don't think the Dept. Of Ed will care about negotiating rights. That only matters in the case of a dispute.
Once they look through payroll and see TUI standing order then I reckon that's as far as they'd dig.
It's just a paperwork requirement.

I was under the impression that everyone in a sec school is treated like an Asti member no matter what their affiliation. I do think the Dept will check CIDs because the vast majority would be through ETBs

evolving_doors

TheDriver wrote: »

I was under the impression that everyone in a sec school is treated like an Asti member no matter what their affiliation. I do think the Dept will check CIDs because the vast majority would be through ETBs

Yes I wonder what way they'd check. Most efficient is just to look at payroll deduction for union sub.
Although they're not allowed to collect that data are they?

rainbowtrout

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Yes I wonder what way they'd check. Most efficient is just to look at payroll deduction for union sub.
Although they're not allowed to collect that data are they?

I'm in a designated community college. We had to fill in some form last year which allowed them to use that info, info they already had to be fair given that union subs are deducted by payroll. There was a lot of controversy about it on here on a thread probably last September. From what I remember ( as we are dual union), if you were TUI you got the 2 year CID and S&S payment etc, ASTI got nothing, and the one or two non-union members in the school are also treated as ASTI.

I can't honestly say I'm impressed by the last post by the OP which implies he's going to join TUI for enough time that it takes for the union membership to go through, be processed by Dept of Ed payroll and then leave again once the CID is signed. Abusing union membership like that isn't how the profession can progress.

To be honest if the principal is that keen to keep the OP it shouldn't be hassle to give them hours for the next two years to get a CID under ASTI conditions unless there is a serious fall in numbers in the OP's school.

joebloggs32

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'm in a designated community college. We had to fill in some form last year which allowed them to use that info, info they already had to be fair given that union subs are deducted by payroll. There was a lot of controversy about it on here on a thread probably last September. From what I remember ( as we are dual union), if you were TUI you got the 2 year CID and S&S payment etc, ASTI got nothing, and the one or two non-union members in the school are also treated as ASTI.

I can't honestly say I'm impressed by the last post by the OP which implies he's going to join TUI for enough time that it takes for the union membership to go through, be processed by Dept of Ed payroll and then leave again once the CID is signed. Abusing union membership like that isn't how the profession can progress.

To be honest if the principal is that keen to keep the OP it shouldn't be hassle to give them hours for the next two years to get a CID under ASTI conditions unless there is a serious fall in numbers in the OP's school.

The form was in a circular last August that needs to be signed.
I agree with you about the open. He is giving out about the TUI, but joining them gets him SnS payments, CID, increments and LPT pay rise.

evolving_doors

I'd forgotten about the letter fiasco.
I think every union member has been put at a disadvantage because the Dept. Knows the stats on membership and who to divide an conquer with. If you ask me (!) I think everyone should disassociate their subs from payslips and set up a standing order or PayPal payment ASAP. It's none of the depts business... and it's clear people are being treated unfairly simply by being members of a union. This should be stopped ASAP. Getting yourself to declare your membership is nothing short of McCarthyism and I'm very surprised the union is in cahoots with payroll at all.

Dunno OP when it comes to permanency in your job (or lack thereof!) the principal seems to know something about dept. Workings that we don't.

Let us know how it transpires.

rainbowtrout

They already knew the stats on union membership. I'd imagine it would take no more than a few minutes to run a query on a payroll database to ascertain union membership. No one at the Dept of Ed will ever admit that this may have happened before they were officially given permission to do so

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

They already knew the stats on union membership. I'd imagine it would take no more than a few minutes to run a query on a payroll database to ascertain union membership. No one at the Dept of Ed will ever admit that this may have happened before they were officially given permission to do so

Yes I think there is a question over this. Even if they ran a query on the stats using payroll info, it's breaking data protection. But hey cest la vie... unless you could uncover it from an FOI/whistleblower or something.

What I'm saying now though is to disassociate from payroll 'going forward' over the next few decades. The info garnered from the 'letter' would gradually become redundant as new members come onstream.
Or am I wrong... will it be the case from now on that every teacher will have to declare to the dept. which union (if any) they are a member of.
Something stinks about that to me.

Only way to break that is having one union. In a way though the dept. have made that almost impossible because of the many different pay arrangements with each teacher/sector.

themusicman

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Yes I think there is a question over this. Even if they ran a query on the stats using payroll info, it's breaking data protection. But hey cest la vie... unless you could uncover it from an FOI/whistleblower or something.

What I'm saying now though is to disassociate from payroll 'going forward' over the next few decades. The info garnered from the 'letter' would gradually become redundant as new members come onstream.
Or am I wrong... will it be the case from now on that every teacher will have to declare to the dept. which union (if any) they are a member of.
Something stinks about that to me.

Only way to break that is having one union. In a way though the dept. have made that almost impossible because of the many different pay arrangements with each teacher/sector.

Slightly off the op but relevant i think

will the department request a letter every year from tui members or just consider it an ongoing declaration
and what if....a tui member obtains a post in a voluntary secondary school....are they paid their current rate or the ....for want of a better phrase the non tui rate.....as per non union members in voluntary schools who are assumed to be asti members for the purpose of determining their pay rate and associated conditions re payment for s and s and cid entitlements( the latter which wouldn't be immediately an issue)

rainbowtrout

themusicman wrote: »

Slightly off the op but relevant i think

will the department request a letter every year from tui members or just consider it an ongoing declaration
and what if....a tui member obtains a post in a voluntary secondary school....are they paid their current rate or the ....for want of a better phrase the non tui rate.....as per non union members in voluntary schools who are assumed to be asti members for the purpose of determining their pay rate and associated conditions re payment for s and s and cid entitlements( the latter which wouldn't be immediately an issue)

I would presume it would be an ongoing declaration, as a change would largely come into effect when a person starts a new job. Of course you have the situation where the OP is suggesting on joining the union for a short term period to get the benefits. Then again I imagine a database payroll could be set up to include a tickbox scenario of TUI/ASTI/No union. If TUI selected your salary is calculated on one payscale and if not it's the other.

A person leaving TUI would then no longer have their subscription coming from payroll deductions. If that is linked then they could easily be put back on the other payscale.

To be honest, I would imagine the Dept of Ed would have thought of this scenario if the OP has, especially when so few TUI teachers work in Dept schools.

r93kaey5p2izun

You don't have to pay union subs through payroll though.

evolving_doors

Where does ETB payroll money come from?

I suppose the only way for the OP to find an answer is to

A. Join TUI get the cid and see what happens.
B. Ring TUI now.and ask.
C. Ring dept. and ask.

It's a fairly unique situation
Optionas B & C might flag the op

joebloggs32

rainbowtrout wrote: »

They already knew the stats on union membership. I'd imagine it would take no more than a few minutes to run a query on a payroll database to ascertain union membership. No one at the Dept of Ed will ever admit that this may have happened before they were officially given permission to do so

The TUI have an introductory sub of 1 EURO for teachers in their first year. They pay their branch, so the department payroll would not know if these teachers were in the union or not.

rainbowtrout

Presumably they will want something more concrete than a post-it note stuck on to a CID application by the principal saying the teacher intends to join TUI?

The form was in circular 45/2016

I confirm that I am a member of the TUI and I hereby consent to this data and
data relating to my union affiliation in the payroll systems of the Department of
Education and Skills or my employer Education and Training Board being used
for the purposes of determining application of the Lansdowne Road Agreement
in my case, in accordance with the relevant provisions of Circular 0045/2016.

and

The Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2013 and 2015 as
set out in Section 3 of this Circular will apply to teachers employed in Voluntary
Secondary schools. Recognising the fact that TUI has accepted the Lansdowne
Road Agreement and that members of TUI are entitled to the benefits and
protections associated with the Agreement, the position of TUI members in
Voluntary Secondary schools will be the subject of further guidance and a further
clarification will issue shortly in relation to such teachers.

To be honest, will TUI even accept the OPs application?

I don't see the words voluntary secondary school anywhere on their website. I can understand a teacher being in TUI and being redeployed or changing job, but this is a teacher with no union history working in a sector not represented by TUI.

I work in an ETB school and during the strikes before Christmas my school was the only one in the ETB that shut down because we have 6 ASTI members (and about 20 TUI) due to an amalgamation 15 years ago. Apparently there is one other school in the ETB that has one ASTI member and that's it.

I'd imagine TUI are rare on the ground in Vol. Sec. Schools and perhaps new applications are not accepted.

evolving_doors

Tis all a bit strange alright Rainbowtrout.

spurious

Yet another example of faceless folk making rules about a system they clearly have no idea works day to day.

Teachers moving from ETBs to voluntary secondary? Sure aren't they all on full hours?

Absolutely clueless.

keoclassic

Take everything you can op, and apologize to no-one. Tell nobody on the staff what you are doing and play along to their tune while doing your own thing, people were given cid status in vol sec schools a couple of years ago after 2 years service and then it went back out to four!!! I know because i got caught myself before leaving teaching altogether, save for that incident I would probably have my mortgage approval and have bought my house.There has been very little fairness in the system the last few years so Fu@k what any one says and get whats best for you if you can get away with it.

SlinkyL

joebloggs32 wrote: »

The TUI have an introductory sub of 1 EURO for teachers in their first year. They pay their branch, so the department payroll would not know if these teachers were in the union or not.

This was my exact situation, payroll requested proof of membership (Des payroll) before they would apply any LRA increase. I had to forward letter from tui and picture of my Union card as they couldn't see any union dues being paid from salary.
I'm in my first year Rpt in a voluntary school. Joined tui in previous position, ETB. Recently the principal pulled me aside double checking my Union membership and inquiring as to whether or not I had signed up to LRA. Whether or not this means they will use this information in my favour or against me wrt to cid I'm still not sure but it's open discrimination based on Union membership.
Incidentally, post 2012, point 2,LRA increases in salary resulted in net loss of earnings due to more USC being applied.

getting worse

Again thanks for all the comments. I don't feel right about joining a union (assuming I can join) and then leaving it, however given the choice I would be more likely to join ASTI than TUI. Apart from the dispute issues where I would lean more, but not completely, on the ASTI side that the TUI, it makes no sense for a school with a small teaching staff to have two unions representing the teachers. I am also a bit frustrated over being forced to join a particular union, on the other hand their may be some movement before September.

evolving_doors

getting worse wrote: »

Again thanks for all the comments. I don't feel right about joining a union (assuming I can join) and then leaving it, however given the choice I would be more likely to join ASTI than TUI. Apart from the dispute issues where I would lean more, but not completely, on the ASTI side that the TUI, it makes no sense for a school with a small teaching staff to have two unions representing the teachers. I am also a bit frustrated over being forced to join a particular union, on the other hand their may be some movement before September.

I have a suspicion that if you are accepted into the TUI that you won't be represented if a dispute happens in your school.

keoclassic

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I have a suspicion that if you are accepted into the TUI that you won't be represented if a dispute happens in your school.

In what way would a union not represent one of their members? Do you mean like the lpts or cid status, or the old "if something happens". I think what the op is looking for is a way to get his CID quicker more so than anything else.Lets face it, the teacher unions don't represent much of anyone these days except the old diehards that are more than willing to send the next generation of teachers up the swanny.

evolving_doors

keoclassic wrote: »

In what way would a union not represent one of their members? Do you mean like the lpts or cid status, or the old "if something happens". I think what the op is looking for is a way to get his CID quicker more so than anything else.Lets face it, the teacher unions don't represent much of anyone these days except the old diehards that are more than willing to send the next generation of teachers up the swanny.

Does the TUI represent teachers in fee charging schools?

rainbowtrout

keoclassic wrote: »

In what way would a union not represent one of their members?




Lets face it, the teacher unions don't represent much of anyone these days except the old diehards that are more than willing to send the next generation of teachers up the swanny.

In the way that the sector the OP works in is represented by ASTI who are the union with negotiating rights, not TUI.

In regard to your last comment. Unions are there to represent their members. If all young teachers joined the union that represented their sector, and actually went to the meetings, brought up issues and voted on them they would soon be the majority.

TheDriver

Principal says no, you are not having a cid. Then the tui comes in to help you. But they have no negotiating rights so management don't have to meet the tui, action cant be taken by tui etc. If these rules weren't in place, any union could close down a place. It even takes effect with sub branches of unions e.g. Bus drivers from siptu on strike but other branches from siptu cant go out. The IR rules are there for all our protection and a fairly comprehensive.