New drug test

blueb

Hi All,

Hoping to get some advice without judgement.
Let me start by saying i have once in my life drove when i had alcohol in my system, i was 22 and have never done it again.
I do like to have a smoke, i have one a night about 11pm as my days are far to busy to be doing that any earlier.

Im very worried about the new roadside drug testing. if i smoke at night and am tested the next day when im totally sober, am i going to be in trouble?

Im finding it hard to find any definitive information on the testing when it comes to cannabis. i would never drive while stoned. i have never even had a penalty point in 15 years of driving.

Any info on this subject is welcome.

Cheers

Oral Surgeon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-mnYLPxwtc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-mnYLPxwtc

blueb wrote: »

Hi All,

Hoping to get some advice without judgement.
Let me start by saying i have once in my life drove when i had alcohol in my system, i was 22 and have never done it again.
I do like to have a smoke, i have one a night about 11pm as my days are far to busy to be doing that any earlier.

Im very worried about the new roadside drug testing. if i smoke at night and am tested the next day when im totally sober, am i going to be in trouble?

Im finding it hard to find any definitive information on the testing when it comes to cannabis. i would never drive while stoned. i have never even had a penalty point in 15 years of driving.

Any info on this subject is welcome.

Cheers

Ubbquittious

I only had 2 spliffs this morning so I shubby grand

droidus

blueb wrote: »

Hi All,

Hoping to get some advice without judgement.
Let me start by saying i have once in my life drove when i had alcohol in my system, i was 22 and have never done it again.
I do like to have a smoke, i have one a night about 11pm as my days are far to busy to be doing that any earlier.

Im very worried about the new roadside drug testing. if i smoke at night and am tested the next day when im totally sober, am i going to be in trouble?

Im finding it hard to find any definitive information on the testing when it comes to cannabis. i would never drive while stoned. i have never even had a penalty point in 15 years of driving.

Any info on this subject is welcome.

Cheers

If you are a regular user it is entirely possible that you will test positive for the swab and the blood tests the day after smoking.

http://buddingfortcollins.com/cannabis-driving-five-nanograms/

biko

blueb wrote: »

Im very worried about the new roadside drug testing. if i smoke at night and am tested the next day when im totally sober, am i going to be in trouble?

The only answer you will get in Motors is "don't smoke the night before then".
We cannot answer that you should be ok.

There is a thread in AH here for that kind of discussion.

CiniO

I might be wrong, but from what I read, they can't prosecute you for drug driving, unless your behaviour indicates you might be under influence of drugs and because of that you are incapable of having proper control of the vehicle.

In other words....
If you have few drinks, go for a drive, and encounter a breathylising checkpoint, they can just ask you to do breath test, and you might fail and be prosecuted. That's even if you were driving 100% correctly.

On the other side, if you drive 100% correctly, they can't just pull you over and do a drug test on you... To do it, they would need to form an opinion that you might be under influence of drugs, so your behaviour would need to indicate that first. And even if they tested you for drugs, and test shown positive result (drugs in the system), they could still not prosecute based solely on that, but they would need to prove as well, that you didn't have proper control of the vehicle.


Have a look here:

From Road Traffic Act 2010.

Definition:

“intoxicant” includes alcohol and drugs and any combination of drugs or of drugs and alcohol;

Relevant part:

4.— (1) A person shall not drive or attempt to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while he or she is under the influence of an intoxicant to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle.

And part relating only to alcohol:

(2) A person shall not drive or attempt to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while there is present in his or her body a quantity of alcohol such that, within 3 hours after so driving or attempting to drive, the concentration of alcohol in his or her blood will exceed a concentration of—

(a) 50 milligrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood, or

(b) in case the person is a specified person, 20 milligrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood.

Also interesting this is part relating to cyclists:

6.— (1) A person shall not, in a public place—

(a) drive or attempt to drive, or be in charge of, an animal-drawn vehicle, or

(b) drive or attempt to drive a pedal cycle,

while he or she is under the influence of an intoxicant to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle or cycle.

So from that it looks like, you can't drive under influence of drugs, but only if that's affecting your driving. On the other hand, you can't drive under influence of alcohol above the prescribed limits, at all times (no matter if your driving is affected or not).

You also can't cycle under influence of drugs or drink, but only if it affects your cycling.
So f.e. if you are pi$$ed, but can still cycle 100% straight, I don't think they can do anything to you.


But don't take my word for it.
It's just my understanding.

tossy

Driving Under the Influence of Drugs in Ireland
Example scenarios which can arise during road traffic law enforcement for driving under the influence of drugs.

Scenario 1
Driver is randomly stopped at a mandatory intoxicant checkpoint by Gardaí and asked to provide a specimen of oral fluid which is tested for drugs.
 The oral fluid test is positive for benzodiazepines.
 The driver explains that he is legitimately prescribed benzodiazepines for a medical
condition by his Doctor.
 The Garda assesses whether the driver is impaired.
 Garda is satisfied that the driver is not impaired and there is no further action.
 Driver continues on his journey.

Scenario 2
Occasional cannabis smoker has smoked a few joints on Saturday night finishing at 3am. Wakes up Sunday at 8am and decides to use his car. On the journey he is stopped at a Garda mandatory intoxicant checkpoint and his oral fluid is tested.
 Oral fluid is positive for cannabis.
 The Garda has no evidence of impairment.
 Driver arrested and a blood specimen is taken within 3 hours.
 Blood specimen sent to the Medical Bureau of Road Safety for testing.
 Cannabis is confirmed by the detection of 9-tetrahydrocannabinol at a concentration of
2ng/ml (limit is 1ng/ml).
 A statutory certificate is issued to the driver and the Garda.
 Driver is prosecuted and, if convicted, will be disqualified from driving for 1 year. Fine and
prison sentence is also possible.

Scenario 3
Driver is spotted by Garda weaving from one side of the road to the other. His lights are not on, even though it is midnight on a poorly lit public road. The Garda stops the driver and there are obvious signs of impairment such as slurred speech and unstable gait.
 The Garda has formed the opinion that the driver is impaired.
 Driver arrested and a urine specimen is taken within 3 hours.
 Urine specimen is sent to the Medical Bureau of Road Safety for testing.
 The presence of the benzodiazepine alprazolam and its metabolite alpha-hydroxyalprazolam
are confirmed in the urine.
 A certificate stating that the presence of a ‘benzodiazepine class’ drug has been detected is
issued by the MBRS to the driver and the Garda.
 Driver is prosecuted and in court presents valid prescription for the drug alprazolam.
 The Garda’s impairment evidence is accepted by the court and the driver is convicted.
 The penalty is disqualification from driving for 4 years. Fine and prison sentence are also
possible.

Scenario 4
Young man on a weekend away, in a country where cannabis is legally available, smokes cannabis while there. Finishes smoking cannabis on Saturday night at 11pm. Flies back on a flight landing in Dublin at 8pm on Sunday. Drives home and is stopped at a mandatory intoxicant checkpoint.
 Oral fluid is tested for cannabis and other drugs.
 Oral fluid negative for cannabis due to the time since last smoking cannabis.
 No further action and driver continues home.

Scenario 5
A driver, who is legally prescribed medicinal cannabinoids, is stopped at a mandatory intoxicant checkpoint.
 Oral fluid is tested for cannabis and other drugs.
 Oral fluid positive for cannabis.
 Driver confirms they are legally prescribed a medicinal cannabis product and produces a
statutory medical exemption certificate for medicinal cannabis.
 The Garda does not form the opinion that the driver is impaired and the driver continues on
their journey.

Scenario 6
Driver is observed driving erratically on a motorway. The Gardaí pull the car over and find that the driver is obviously impaired.
 Oral fluid is tested for cannabis and other drugs.
 Oral fluid positive for cannabis.
 Driver confirms they are legally prescribed a medicinal cannabis product and produces a
statutory medical exemption certificate for medicinal cannabis.
 The Garda forms the opinion that the driver is impaired and the driver is arrested.
 A blood specimen is taken within 3 hours.
 Blood specimen sent to the Medical Bureau of Road Safety for testing.
 Cannabis is confirmed by the detection of 9-tetrahydrocannabinol at a concentration of
10ng/ml (limit is 1ng/ml).
 A statutory certificate is issued to the driver and the Garda.
 Driver is prosecuted and, if convicted, will be disqualified from driving for 4 years. Fine and
prison sentence is also possible.

source..

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Campaigns/Anti%20Drug%20Driving/DUID%206%20Scenarios%20Public%2011%2004%2017.pdf

mikeecho

50 roadside devices for the entire country.

Chances of coming across a checkpoint .. slim

Coming across a check point with one of these devices.. slim

Being the driver selected for a saliva sample.. less than 50:50.

All in all... slim chances of being tested.

tossy

Oral Surgeon wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-mnYLPxwtc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-mnYLPxwtc

Is that the clip clop of a moral high horse I hear approaching, I can barely make it out under the hum of smugness.

Eric Cartman

from the irish times article on it :
"The new testing regime will be targeted at young male drivers and Assistant Garda Commissioner Michael Finn said this was because this age group had been found to be most prone to drug-driving."

standard sexism yet again from the government.

CiniO

tossy wrote: »

source..

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Campaigns/Anti%20Drug%20Driving/DUID%206%20Scenarios%20Public%2011%2004%2017.pdf

That's interesting.

Anyone know what's the legal source for that limit:

Cannabis is confirmed by the detection of 9-tetrahydrocannabinol at a concentration of 2ng/ml (limit is 1ng/ml).

?
I don't think I ever seen that on any road traffic act or regulations

Indricotherium

From the outset, I will say, I am an advocate of decriminalising cannabis as I think its prohibition causes a deal more harm than it prevents.

However, I don't think it is unreasonable or draconian that people should have to choose to be a vehicle driver or a cannabis user.

I'd be all for an absolute zero tolerance approach to cannabis driving.

For me the best approach would be a roadside sobriety test, where fails are followed up by a blood test with the blood THC level set at whatever the absolute lowest that second hand smoke or contact absorption would explain

Eric Cartman

mikeecho wrote: »

50 roadside devices for the entire country.

Chances of coming across a checkpoint .. slim

Coming across a check point with one of these devices.. slim

Being the driver selected for a saliva sample.. less than 50:50.

All in all... slim chances of being tested.

chances 40 of the devices are in dublin - 100%

chances one gets brought to every incident involving a modified car - pretty high
chances that when a car meet happens in a carpark, a checkpoint gets set up at the entrance - pretty high.

chances of them mounting checkpoints on most major routes out of dublin on a friday / sat night - pretty high (I would know a fair few people who live rurally who would go out in dublin, bring 3-4 others , the others would drink, they would use some substance so they can join in the party , wait until it mostly wears off then drive the drunks home, gardai know this too and will be targeting, anyone coming across a checkpoint who is 'sober' but has drunk people in the car will be tested)

mikeecho

Eric Cartman wrote: »

chances 40 of the devices are in dublin - 100%

chances one gets brought to every incident involving a modified car - pretty high
chances that when a car meet happens in a carpark, a checkpoint gets set up at the entrance - pretty high.

chances of them mounting checkpoints on most major routes out of dublin on a friday / sat night - pretty high (I would know a fair few people who live rurally who would go out in dublin, bring 3-4 others , the others would drink, they would use some substance so they can join in the party , wait until it mostly wears off then drive the drunks home, gardai know this too and will be targeting, anyone coming across a checkpoint who is 'sober' but has drunk people in the car will be tested)

Well... there's more to Ireland than Dublin.

Chances of being tested for alcohol are slim.. And there are less of encountering one of these drug machine's.

All smoke and mirrors.

Shure didn't they have ads on tv last year saying that Gardai are now testing for drugs.

And it's only now that legislation is in place.

The usual bull s#it, the usual smoke and mirrors.

vectra

Whats the story with someone on prescribed painkillers and that?

carzony

All the same they never seem to catch the lads who are driving without insurance for years, banned drivers still driving, setup a proper ANPR system, give proper equipment and patrol vehicles. Yet another massive advert for the Gardai to pretend they care about road safety. We all know this will be forgotten about in a months time. Same as the lone L drivers 'clampdown' was a couple months back.

biko

vectra wrote: »

Whats the story with someone on prescribed painkillers and that?

Your doctor will tell you if it's ok to drive on the meds.

challengemaster

vectra wrote: »

Whats the story with someone on prescribed painkillers and that?

Heard on the radio that some prescription meds will give a false positive result. Same as with any testing procedure, you'll always have false positives. No idea which ones though.

If you're cleared to drive on them you'll be fine.

I'd imagine you'll be brought back to the station and have to take a blood test which would be more specific and less prone to false positives.

They couldn't just let you away at the roadside if you tested positive and had a prescription with you or doctors note or something. Because then people could legitimately drive on drugs and just produce a note/prescription and drive on.

Indricotherium

challengemaster wrote: »

Heard on the radio that some prescription meds will give a false positive result. Same as with any testing procedure, you'll always have false positives. No idea which ones though.

If you're cleared to drive on them you'll be fine.

I'd imagine you'll be brought back to the station and have to take a blood test which would be more specific and less prone to false positives.

They couldn't just let you away at the roadside if you tested positive and had a prescription with you or doctors note or something. Because then people could legitimately drive on drugs and just produce a note/prescription and drive on.

The inconvenience to the occasional false positive is definitely worth it in my opinion.

PMBC

I've only seen Cannabis mentioned and benzodiazepines. What, if any, over the counter medicines are targeted? For example cough bottles often mention drowsiness and warn about driving (machines).

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

I might be wrong, but from what I read, they can't prosecute you for drug driving, unless your behaviour indicates you might be under influence of drugs and because of that you are incapable of having proper control of the vehicle.

In other words....
If you have few drinks, go for a drive, and encounter a breathylising checkpoint, they can just ask you to do breath test, and you might fail and be prosecuted. That's even if you were driving 100% correctly.

On the other side, if you drive 100% correctly, they can't just pull you over and do a drug test on you... To do it, they would need to form an opinion that you might be under influence of drugs, so your behaviour would need to indicate that first. And even if they tested you for drugs, and test shown positive result (drugs in the system), they could still not prosecute based solely on that, but they would need to prove as well, that you didn't have proper control of the vehicle.

Not having proper control of a vehicle whilst driving under the influence of drugs (aka - impairement) has been law since 1933, this is nothing new, although impairment testing only came into force in 2014. But the new law which took effect today makes it illegal to be over certain limits irrespective of how it affects your driving.

GM228

PMBC wrote: »

I've only seen Cannabis mentioned and benzodiazepines. What, if any, over the counter medicines are targeted? For example cough bottles often mention drowsiness and warn about driving (machines).

The following drugs have specific limits:-

Δ9-Tetrahydrocannabinol (Cannabis) 1ng/ml

11-nor-9-carboxy-Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (Cannabis) 5ng/ml

Cocaine 10ng/ml

Benzoylecgonine (Cocaine) 50ng/ml

6-Acetylmorphine (Heroin) 5ng/ml


But impairement can apply to ANY drug legal or otherwise.

Chris Brown

Mod edit. Not only does this sound kindy shilly but its also a bad idea

vectra

Indricotherium wrote: »

The inconvenience to the occasional false positive is definitely worth it in my opinion.

The inconvenience might seem a positive to you.
But in the situation where someone is on prescription meds that gets stopped regularly and have to give blood could get very annoying.

challengemaster

vectra wrote: »

The inconvenience might seem a positive to you.
But in the situation where someone is on prescription meds that gets stopped regularly and have to give blood could get very annoying.

I don't see any real situation where someone is going to get stopped and tested on any kind of regular basis. It doesn't even happen with alcohol testing, it's not going to happen with drug testing with the limited amount of devices.

Esel

Chris Brown wrote: »

Mod edit.

Welcome to Boards.

punisher5112

KC161 wrote: »

How far back can those systems detect a substance?

A week or something?

It would all depend on amount used and type of drug taken.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

punisher5112

KC161 wrote: »

Is there any margin or error in the software?

There would be.

They would be able to get a more accurate reading from blood sample.

Drugs can also be prescription based as so many continue to drive when dosed out and really shouldn't be behind a wheel.

boardsuser1

punisher5112 wrote: »

There would be.

They would be able to get a more accurate reading from blood sample.

Drugs can also be prescription based as so many continue to drive when dosed out and really shouldn't be behind a wheel.

So if they were deemed to be on something at a checkpoint they can demand a blood sample just like the drink/driving cases?

I was on Diazepam/D5'S/D10's before, them and solpodol can make you very drowsy.

After a while they became second nature.

I assume even if you were immune to the things the machine would still say you are over?

I am off them a long time and never drove after taking them.

Signing my own death warrant there if i did.

bear1

I would imagine that if you took pills where there is a warning not to drive and you did anyway you could be in trouble if stopped.
Just a guess though.

boardsuser1

bear1 wrote: »

I would imagine that if you took pills where there is a warning not to drive and you did anyway you could be in trouble if stopped.
Just a guess though.

100%

TallGlass

I'd imagine the analyiser is working off the 'active life' of the drug. Rather than the 'half life' of the drug. That's the one that lingers around your system. Which depends on the drug as below.

http://drug.addictionblog.org/how-long-does-cocaine-stay-in-your-system/

quadrifoglio verde

KC161 wrote: »

So if they were deemed to be on something at a checkpoint they can demand a blood sample just like the drink/driving cases?

I was on Diazepam/D5'S/D10's before, them and solpodol can make you very drowsy.

After a while they became second nature.

I assume even if you were immune to the things the machine would still say you are over?

I am off them a long time and never drove after taking them.

Signing my own death warrant there if i did.

From the RSA's website:
"If your oral fluid tests positive for benzodiazepines or opiates and the Garda is of the opinion that you are impaired you will be arrested and brought to the station where a blood specimen will be collected and sent to the MBRS for analysis.

If your oral fluid tests positive for benzodiazepines or opiates and the Garda is of the opinion that you are not impaired you are not committing an offence and can drive on."

Here is the link from the RSA
http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Campaigns/Anti%20Drug%20Driving/Preliminary%20Drug%20Testing%20List%20FAQs.pdf

Regarding having a joint, it says wait 6 hours minimum for the THC levels to fall, but advises waiting 24 hours.

rionzion

Hi BlueB, i understand your concerns and am in a similar position myself. From what i understand the saliva swab test is only an indicator test. if you test positive, you will then be given a blood test within 3 hours and it's the blood level above 1ng/ml of blood that is the prescribed limit under law. There is no specified limit in the legislation relating to the oral test and so far gardai/rsa etc have not made any mention of what the threshold in the saliva is. However i believe there is a formula that converts saliva level into blood level (with a +/- 20% margin of error mind you!) so this is what they must be using. The recent gardai press release suggests that 6 hours after smoking you should be under the limit but then goes on to say you shouldn't smoke for 24 hours before driving so thats rather unclear.

My best suggestion, and this is what i plan to do, is get a hold of a few home test kits and do some experimenting until you have a reasonable idea of how long after smoking you test negative. obviously the test kits vary and the guards will be using the super-duper thingy 5000 machine which is outside the reach of most folks... but still it should enable you to have a better picture of your own limits.

Good luck and drive safe