Jury Duty clashing with annual leave

bobmalooka

Hi,

I've recently been called for jury duty. The start date is about a week before I have annual leave (no flights etc booked yet)

I was wondering would anybody know what the situation with my annual leave if jury duty overlapped with it i.e. Is it tough luck that I happen to have used it at the same time?

Kimbot

bobmalooka wrote: »

Hi,

I've recently been called for jury duty. The start date is about a week before I have annual leave (no flights etc booked yet)

I was wondering would anybody know what the situation with my annual leave if jury duty overlapped with it i.e. Is it tough luck that I happen to have used it at the same time?

Well when you do have your holiday/flights etc booked, you could contact the court service and show them proof that you wont be around etc and they will just put you back into the pot for the next time your called.

seamus

If jury duty overlaps with annual leave, your employer is obliged to return your annual leave allowance and pay you for being on jury duty.

Jury duty is for all intents and purposes a day at work and is treated as such.

bobmalooka

Thanks a million folks

Seamus - I was wondering could they argue they aren't treating me any differently due to my jury duty? Anyway they are fairly decent and I can't imagine they would move my leave if needs be.

Jonny - that's probably what I'll do in the end.

seamus

bobmalooka wrote: »

Seamus - I was wondering could they argue they aren't treating me any differently due to my jury duty?

I'm not sure what you mean?

Your employer is obliged to consider time spent on jury duty as time at work. It's illegal to be at work and on annual leave at the same time, so every hour spent on jury duty cannot be considered annual leave by your employer.

Miike

seamus wrote: »

If jury duty overlaps with annual leave, your employer is obliged to return your annual leave allowance and pay you for being on jury duty.

Jury duty is for all intents and purposes a day at work and is treated as such.

Do you have any links to prove this? I just got my Jury Summons flat bang in the middle of my annual leave which really isn't ideal for me.

ohnonotgmail

Miike wrote: »

Do you have any links to prove this? I just got my Jury Summons flat bang in the middle of my annual leave which really isn't ideal for me.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1976/act/4/section/29/enacted/en/html

it basically says that you are working while on jury duty and should be treated accordingly by your employer

GM228

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1976/act/4/section/29/enacted/en/html

it basically says that you are working while on jury duty and should be treated accordingly by your employer

And it is an offence for an employer not to pay you during jury duty.

ohnonotgmail

GM228 wrote: »

And it is an offence for an employer not to pay you during jury duty.

thats what i said

actually, while it is technically an offence there is no punishment specified so its a bit moot.

Miike

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1976/act/4/section/29/enacted/en/html

it basically says that you are working while on jury duty and should be treated accordingly by your employer

Thank you

GM228

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

thats what i said

actually, while it is technically an offence there is no punishment specified so its a bit moot.

Under Common Law there are unlimited fines and prison time.

BullBauld

Miike wrote: »

Do you have any links to prove this? I just got my Jury Summons flat bang in the middle of my annual leave which really isn't ideal for me.

I received a jury summons a few months back which was falling in the middle of booked leave. I replied saying I was on leave and would be away visiting in-laws(which I was) and I was excused.

Cloudio9

Miike wrote: »

Do you have any links to prove this? I just got my Jury Summons flat bang in the middle of my annual leave which really isn't ideal for me.

I wouldn't go cancelling any holiday plans. Just call and tell them you're away on holidays at that time.

Cloudio9

GM228 wrote: »

Under Common Law there are unlimited fines and prison time.

LOL.

ohnonotgmail

GM228 wrote: »

Under Common Law there are unlimited fines and prison time.

how does common law apply to a statutory offence?


Mod

This is a wider area than jury duty.

If you want to explore it, I suggest you open a separate thread

athtrasna

Miike wrote: »

Do you have any links to prove this? I just got my Jury Summons flat bang in the middle of my annual leave which really isn't ideal for me.

I've twice been summoned for jury duty when I had leave booked and twice been excused after I sent a letter to the courts officer with proof of bookings

Miike

athtrasna wrote: »

I've twice been summoned for jury duty when I had leave booked and twice been excused after I sent a letter to the courts officer with proof of bookings

I haven't got anything booked just yet but if I book something now will they think I'm just trying to get out of jury duty?

gizmo555

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

thats what i said

actually, while it is technically an offence there is no punishment specified so its a bit moot.

Well, presumably the employee could make a complaint to the Workplace Relations Commission or similar to enforce payment.

Cloudio9

Miike wrote: »

I haven't got anything booked just yet but if I book something now will they think I'm just trying to get out of jury duty?

You don't have to leave the country. You have leave booked so are not available.
Mod deletion. Jibe removed

Jayop

I've never been called yet. Like, how likely is that someone would be called in say a 15 year period?

It's chosen from the electoral register, yeah?

athtrasna

Jayop wrote: »

I've never been called yet. Like, how likely is that someone would be called in say a 15 year period?

It's chosen from the electoral register, yeah?

I was called once in 4 years at my old address and then just recently after 13 years at my "new" address so it seems very random

Rightwing

It's high time people were paid for this. I don't believe in doing something for free.

GM228

Cloudio9 wrote: »

LOL.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how does common law apply to a statutory offence?

There is no statutory offence.

S29 of the Juries Act 1976 simply provides for a statutory obligation to be paid, but no offence is prescribed, the offence is under the Common Law.

GM228

Rightwing wrote: »

It's high time people were paid for this. I don't believe in doing something for free.

High time? They are being paid through their employers and have been for the last 41 years.

Or are you talking of those who are unemployed or self-employed.

I believe in many countries you receive a fixed daily payment for jury service no matter what your employment status is.

Peregrinus

Rightwing wrote: »

It's high time people were paid for this. I don't believe in doing something for free.

It's a civic responsibility, like voting.

You don't get paid for being a citizen.

Rightwing

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's a civic responsibility, like voting.

You don't get paid for being a citizen.

Rubbish.

Do people even get their expenses paid for ?

ohnonotgmail

Rightwing wrote: »

Rubbish.

Do people even get their expenses paid for ?

they get paid by their employer as if they were in work.

Rightwing

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they get paid by their employer as if they were in work.

What about the self employed, the employer.

Only punters on the welfare and public sector workers should be doing this.

ohnonotgmail

Rightwing wrote: »

What about the self employed, the employer.

Only punters on the welfare and public sector workers should be doing this.

self employed can apply to be dismissed from jury duty if they cannot afford to do it. For the employers its just another cost of employing people.

Rightwing

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

self employed can apply to be dismissed from jury duty if they cannot afford to do it. For the employers its just another cost of employing people.

It's a cost the State should be taking on, particularly for small businesses.

ohnonotgmail

Rightwing wrote: »

It's a cost the State should be taking on, particularly for small businesses.

Write to your TD

Rightwing

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Write to your TD

I don't believe in that type of rubbish. I just wouldn't participate.

ohnonotgmail

Rightwing wrote: »

I don't believe in that type of rubbish. I just wouldn't participate.

Civic responsibility isn't for everybody.

Cloudio9

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they get paid by their employer as if they were in work.

The law reform commission has recommended that people receive a modest allowance to reimburse their out of pocket expenses. It's about showing a bit of respect to people who are performing this civic duty.

Maybe participation would be higher if jurors were shown more respect by having their transport costs reimbursed and not just left hanging around in courts for hours.

Also it's not clear to me how people who work casual, per hour jobs in pubs, shops etc get compensated by their employer.

1874

I am to attend jury duty but my employer still wants me to do a full weeks work in the same week when im finished, my hours are specific but not standard, jury hours and work will be unlikely to overlap unless its for the whole week. I may be a juror for days, the entire week, or nothing. my understanding is any hours at jury duty is legally allowed and required to be deducted from your scheduled weekly working hours? Is this correct?

seamus

Yes, you're correct. Hours spent attending jury duty are considered hours at work. Your employer can ask you to work a full day outside of it, but they will have to pay you for all hours worked inclusive of jury duty.

Paulw

Also, don't forget -

The Organisation of Working Time Act 1997 states that the maximum average working week for many employees cannot exceed 48 hours. This does not mean that a working week can never exceed 48 hours, it is the average that is important.

1874

seamus wrote: »

Yes, you're correct. Hours spent attending jury duty are considered hours at work. Your employer can ask you to work a full day outside of it, but they will have to pay you for all hours worked inclusive of jury duty.

So I could be asked or told to work the hours and be expected to do them, but Id be entitled to be paid?
If I did only 8 hours of jury duty and then my scheduled hours for that week, I think that would be exceeding the amount in the working time act.
I was planning on telling them I did whatever hours required in jury duty and saying deduct that off that weeks hours. They seem to think as the hours wont overlap I'll just turn up on the week/weekend as the work hours probably or mostly wont overlap and just do the whole lot.

Im expecting hassle over this no matter what I do, unless I do exactly what they expect. I dont want to have to pursue it, but then I can see they will just try deal with me down the road.

I had not thought about this before, but I think when someone serves as a juror, then an employer might be less unreasonable if they could recover costs through social payments with certs of attendance.

edit, just checked, I would not go over a legal limit for working time act purposes, I just want to deduct any hours on jury service and do the balance in work, work expects me to do the remaining hours which dont clash with jury duty, that would mean I could end up doing at least 72 hours of jury duty and work and possibly more

seamus

1874 wrote: »

So I could be asked or told to work the hours and be expected to do them, but Id be entitled to be paid?
If I did only 8 hours of jury duty and then my scheduled hours for that week, I think that would be exceeding the amount in the working time act.

The maximum weekly hours in the working time act only applies on average - there is nothing stopping someone from doing a huge amount of hours on a once-off basis provided that it doesn't push their average hours above 48 (taken over the last 4 months of work).

There's an entitlement to 11 hours break between any two work periods. So in theory it is legal to ask an employee to work 13 hours a day for 7 days straight (for a total of 91 hours). Every 6 hours requires a 30-minute break, so that's 12 actual working hours per day for a week to give 84 hours total. This is absolute legal maximum you can do in a given week.

However the next week the employee will be entitled to two full days off (at least).

And yes, you are entitled to be paid for all of these hours by your employer. Jury Duty is not unpaid, the bill is shouldered by your employer.

Dakota Dan

athtrasna wrote: »

I was called once in 4 years at my old address and then just recently after 13 years at my "new" address so it seems very random

Random? Yeah right, my daughter was called twice in 3 years and I was called 6 months after her last jury service, both at the same address. Nothing random in that.

1874

ok,

So they could ask or tell me to do the hours and Id have to do them!? but, Id be entitled to overtime?
It seems like I cannot decline to do the hours? that was my intention.
Id rather my rest time off than overtime, Its better for me to exchange the hours I did in jury duty for time deducted from my scheduled working hours that week than overtime.
The thing is, I dont think they will deduct hours from my schedule or pay me extra/overtime. I could end up doing 80 hours total, when I was younger, on occasion I did work like that, but it was exhausting then and I did not have family commitments.

Heres Johnny

OK, theres some mad stuff in this thread. I'm no expert but I did jury earlier this year and you learn a good bit. I was there for a full week and sat on a murder case for 4 days.

Your main question was about juty duty clashing with annual leave.
You can still turn up the week before annual leave and here is what happens.

There are a large number of potential jurors called a panel. In my case it must have been about 150 or 200. The judge comes on screen to the jury panel and explains the case to be heard, who is involved, defendants and prosecution, witnesses etc....and the judge gives the duration of the hearing. In my case it was a murder in a part of the country I knew nothing about, I didnt know anyone involved and it was 4 days duration. Some were much longer up to 2 weeks. So I decided I could do this one if called.

The court clerk calls out numbers which we were assigned and we made our way up to the courtroom. Some people excused themselves based on living in the locality, knowing something about the case or an inability to commit to the 4 days due to work. In every case the judge thanked the person for their time and asked them to return to the jury room.

If not called, the panel was dismissed at the end of the week and a new panel was brought in for the next week. I actually found it an interesting week. It was in the criminal courts of justice in Dublin so I'm not sure if every court has the same tv links to the courtroom in the jury room.

But I would be confident that the exemptions are consistent throughout the land.

And the verdict was guilty. I actually enjoyed my time in there just seeing how a court works in real life after watching law and order for a few years

seamus

1874 wrote: »

ok,

So they could ask or tell me to do the hours and Id have to do them!? but, Id be entitled to overtime?
It seems like I cannot decline to do the hours? that was my intention.

All depends on your contract. Most contracts include a requirement to be flexible and do additional hours where required. Whether overtime is payable depends on your contract.

Forget about jury duty and imagine instead that you're in work at that time. Could you refuse to do the overtime?

That's your answer.

1874

seamus wrote: »

All depends on your contract. Most contracts include a requirement to be flexible and do additional hours where required. Whether overtime is payable depends on your contract.

Forget about jury duty and imagine instead that you're in work at that time. Could you refuse to do the overtime?

That's your answer.

Overtime is paid but it would be rarely available, it could be declined and the rates are not in writing, they seem to vary depending on the urgency but it is paid. I cant imagine that any other way even if someone was on a salary, Id expect some compensation for additional hours. In which case the answer seems to be, I should be paid overtime for Jury duty and do my work hours too. I can see this ending with me unhappy for not being paid for my jury duty hours by my employer but still doing my full weeks work anyway.

Peregrinus

You should be paid for your jury duty hours and for any further hours that you work. If there's an overtime rate for hours above a certain limit and your total hours exceed that limit, then you should be paid the overtime rate - it's not necessary to attribute this particularly to the jury duty hours or particulary to the "real work" hours. From what you say, though, there is no established overtime rate, in which case you should be paid at the standard hourly rate for all the hours (real work + jury duty) that you do.

L1011

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Random? Yeah right, my daughter was called twice in 3 years and I was called 6 months after her last jury service, both at the same address. Nothing random in that.

You don't understand randomness.