Alu-Clad Timber Windows Ireland

davinlarkin

This post is in relation to timber-clad (aluclad) and timber windows .. i would like to hear other peoples views and experiences with different manufacturers... i have experience in the construction industry namely in the window and door sector.
I find it hard to understand why people buy pressure treated timber products (up to 10mm treatment penetration) for their gardens (sheds , fences, decking etc), yet settle for timber windows and doors that are only dipped or flow coated (surface coating only gives 1mm penetration into timber).
To my understanding and experience only one window manufacturer vac vac their timber products ( as designed for arctic weather conditions, horizontal rain, coastal winds) ... others are danish made and yet cold but dry climate , flow coating may be suitable in denmark and eastern europe.. it is not suitable for irish climate..
There is even a huge irish manufacturer from the munster area selling a PVC window ( cladded with aluminium externally and timber internally ) as an aluclad window.
No doubt the best material to make windows from is timber... why do people settle for sub standard treatment for their home??

JonathonS

By any chance...is your experience in the construction industry as the (reportedly) one window manufacturer who pressure-treat their timber products ( as designed for arctic weather conditions, horizontal rain, coastal winds)??

davinlarkin

JonathonS wrote: »

By any chance...is your experience in the construction industry as the (reportedly) one window manufacturer who pressure-treat their timber products ( as designed for arctic weather conditions, horizontal rain, coastal winds)??

Hi Jonathan,
I am a qualified electrician, i have a degree in electrical and building servcies and outside that i have worked for three different window manufacturers... have you got a point to contribute??

Dinarius

davinlarkin wrote: »

There is even a huge irish manufacturer from the munster area selling a PVC window ( cladded with aluminium externally and timber internally ) as an aluclad window.

Please explain, if it's wood on the inside, how can it also be PVC?

Are you saying that the aluminium on the outside is covering PVC?

Thanks.

D.

davinlarkin

Dinarius wrote: »

Please explain, if it's wood on the inside, how can it also be PVC?

Are you saying that the aluminium on the outside is covering PVC?

Thanks.

D.

Hi
Yes the frame and sash are a 90mm multi chamber PVC profile. The internal side is then cladded with pine or iroko. The outside is then cladded with aluminium. You can ask for a cross section of the window which will not be provided. However, you may be provided with a sectional drawing. if you open the window it is clearly seen where the sash locks into the frame.

Dinarius

Ps.

PM if necessary.

Thanks.

D.

Dinarius

Thanks for the reply.

Would never have dawned on me that the sliding door being on the inside, as opposed to the outside, would have made a difference.

But, your description of what goes wrong with them is bang on.

Thanks.

D.

davinlarkin

Dinarius wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

Would never have dawned on me that the sliding door being on the inside, as opposed to the outside, would have made a difference.

But, your description of what goes wrong with them is bang on.

Thanks.

D.

If you opening the sliding door slightly.. you will see the vertical seal is fixed by a series of screws. I would take this off add another seal and put original back on.
The main problem is the frame is PVC and bows. You cannot change that fact.
Could also try putting a deeper interlock strip on too.

Dinarius

Thanks again.

My sliders are hardwood, and straight as a ruler.

My problem is the seals.

Have a service call booked.

Will be interesting to see what they suggest and do.

Thanks again.

D.

BryanF

some posts removed, that we're discussing specific companies.
Can we please avoid discussing specific companies. The charter is there for a reason in this regard. Thank you

RoryW

"To my understanding and experience only one window manufacturer vac vac their timber products ( as designed for arctic weather conditions, horizontal rain, coastal winds)"

would welcome a PM for which company this is

Also any PMs that people are willing to share re wooden window companies in Ireland

Dinarius

RoryW wrote: »

"To my understanding and experience only one window manufacturer vac vac their timber products ( as designed for arctic weather conditions, horizontal rain, coastal winds)"

would welcome a PM for which company this is

Also any PMs that people are willing to share re wooden window companies in Ireland

I have no idea which company the OP was referring to.

But, a quick Google threw up a small company in the Limerick area which is using pressure treated wood.

They're showing the others the way. Good luck to them.

D.

Dinarius

While I accept the practicalities (legal and otherwise) of discussing products and services by company name, on a website such as Boards, I do strongly believe that an unwillingness to do so at any level merely perpetuates Ireland's national disease, namely, total lack of accountability. (The Gardai, politicians, the semi-state sector, take your pick)

There should be a way of highlighting unsatisfactory goods, and poor service, particularly in a country where the producer appears to be more protected than the consumer. (The https://thecai.ie/ website looks like something your local gardening club might have dreamed up - and my direct experience of them has been less than inspiring)

But, I accept also, that on a site with voluntary mediation, this is nigh on impractical.

That said, it is more than ironic that we will happily discuss the relative merits of the goods and services of large corporations on Boards.ie (viz. any discussion of, say, Intel vs AMD or Apple vs the rest) while the local yokels escape unaccounted for.

Such is Ireland, I suppose.

D.

BryanF

the forum charter asks you to avoid
with the exception of large, national or multi-national businesses who really don’t need the free advertising , posts naming specific companies/traders and/or their products are discouraged and may be deleted and the poster warned or banned or both.

please see this from boards.ie prespective and consider: if specific companies are discussed, and they don't like whats stated by an anonymous poster, and they sue...

thanks

(do not respond to this post, if you have further queries read the forum charter or send me a PM, thanks)



If you are not happy for any reason with the moderation of the forum then you may send a Private Message(PM) to one of the moderators and if this does not address your concerns you should then send a PM to one of the category mods. If this does not address your concerns you should then send a PM to the help desk

davinlarkin

Dinarius wrote: »

I have no idea which company the OP was referring to.

But, a quick Google threw up a small company in the Limerick area which is using pressure treated wood.

They're showing the others the way. Good luck to them.

D.

Can you PM me the company please. Would be eager to see how the treat. Is is protim grade vac vac process? Done before or after machining. Good luck to them is right, i applaud any company that pushes quality over quantity.

Dinarius

PM sent.

D.

fatty pang

davinlarkin wrote: »

Can you PM me the company please. Would be eager to see how the treat. Is is protim grade vac vac process? Done before or after machining. Good luck to them is right, i applaud any company that pushes quality over quantity.

Errr.... what's 'protim grade'? That's a brand name covering numerous products and not a performance standard as inferred.

mad m

I got Alu-clad in my house around 8 years back. They looked great when in, not draughty or anything but my main grip is really bad condensation on inside of windows during winter or especially cold days out, even on good days there is still small amount of condensation.

Out back we got an extension, inner/outer leaf, 50mm insulated on inner leaf. I'm assuming they were fitted correctly but even still get terrible condensation on new build and to front (old part of house ) which is solid blocks on flat. Yes I have 4inch vents in walls in new part and only in one front bedroom.

I'm starting to see the wood now going white and black in corners where water gathers which means the wood on inside is starting to rot. None of the glass seems to have broken down. In short if I had a time machine id be going back to change my mind. if you want the name of supplier then Pm away. But you already mentioned them I think in first post OP.

fatty pang

mad m wrote: »

I got Alu-clad in my house around 8 years back. They looked great when in, not draughty or anything but my main grip is really bad condensation on inside of windows during winter or especially cold days out, even on good days there is still small amount of condensation

Modern timber windows with insulated glazing units are very rarely the cause of internal condensation -
http://www.ggf.org.uk/publication/condensation_some_causes_some_advice

If you have that much condensation the windows are not the cause of your problem.

mad m

fatty pang wrote: »

Modern timber windows with insulated glazing units are very rarely the cause of internal condensation -
http://www.ggf.org.uk/publication/condensation_some_causes_some_advice

If you have that much condensation the windows are not the cause of your problem.

Some good reading...I do make sure there is a change of fresh air within house as soon as I wake, raising the heat of house during cold days could be something to look into as once we are in bed no heating is on. Few things to think about.

Dinarius

All our windows have trickle vents. Never had any condensation, as a result. (As well as airing the house, especially the bathroom after showers/baths.)

D.

fatty pang

Dinarius wrote: »

All our windows have trickle vents.

Putting a trickle vent in a window is illogical. A window is designed to be as thermally efficient as possible with minimal air permeability and maximum sound attenuation and then you go and put a bloody great hole in it with total disregard to those criteria.
Adequate ventilation of buildings in this country is a problem (on a number of levels) but trickle vents in windows is definitely not the solution.

Dinarius

Trickle vents are a much better way of controlling ventilation than traditional wall vents.

What's your solution?

D.

BryanF

Dinarius wrote: »

Trickle vents are a much better way of controlling ventilation than traditional wall vents.

What's your solution?

D.

There are better ways of Controlling ventilation

Trickle vents can struggle to comply with the free area requirements in building regs.

Lumen

fatty pang wrote: »

Putting a trickle vent in a window is illogical. A window is designed to be as thermally efficient as possible with minimal air permeability and maximum sound attenuation and then you go and put a bloody great hole in it with total disregard to those criteria.
Adequate ventilation of buildings in this country is a problem (on a number of levels) but trickle vents in windows is definitely not the solution.

Heating cold fresh air is cheap. I ran some numbers because I was curious...

4 people require air change rate of 0.032 m3/s, so a million cubic metres per year.

To heat a million cubic metres of air up by 11 degrees (average outside temp is Ireland is 10 degrees) takes 11 megajoules.

That much energy is in 240ml home heating oil burned at 100% efficiency.

BryanF

Calc seems a bit 'out'
Read this:

http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1647%2Cen.pdf

Lumen

BryanF wrote: »

Calc seems a bit 'out'
Read this:

http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1647%2Cen.pdf

Thanks.

Using "5 l/s plus 4 l/s per person" I get 21l/s or 0.021 m3/s for a four-person household (I used 0.032) so over a year that's only 662,256 m3/year (not a million). So the costs are even less unless I've buggered up some other aspect of the calculation.

edit: I did indeed bugger them up. In detail:

Density of air at 10C = 1.2466 kg/m3
Specific heat of air is 1.0035 kJ/kg/C

So 662,256 * 1.2466 * 1.0035 * 11 = 9,113,036 KJ = 9,113 MJ

Oil has 46 MJ/kg so 37.6 MJ/l.

9113/37.6 = ~ 243 litres of oil.

BryanF

Lumen wrote: »

Thanks.

Using "5 l/s plus 4 l/s per person" I get 21l/s or 0.021 m3/s for a four-person household (I used 0.032) so over a year that's only 662,256 m3/year (not a million). So the costs are even less unless I've buggered up some other aspect of the calculation.

edit: I did indeed bugger them up. In detail:

Should the building fabric heat loss and unregulated air-leakage (air-tightness) be a considered in your calc?

Lumen

BryanF wrote: »

Should the building fabric heat loss and unregulated air-leakage (air-tightness) be a considered in your calc?

The way I see it, the building fabric (e.g. walls, ceilings) extracts heat from the air like an radiator surface (but the other way round). That's not a consequence of ventilation.

Unregulated air leakage is just ventilation. If you have a leaky room you don't need trickle vents, so again not really relevant.

I was just trying to work out the heat losses directly associated with the recommended amount of fresh air required for ventilation (assuming no heat recovery).

This was in the context of....

fatty pang wrote: »

Putting a trickle vent in a window is illogical. A window is designed to be as thermally efficient as possible with minimal air permeability and maximum sound attenuation and then you go and put a bloody great hole in it with total disregard to those criteria.
Adequate ventilation of buildings in this country is a problem (on a number of levels) but trickle vents in windows is definitely not the solution.

I'm not suggesting trickle vents are a perfect solution, but a hole's a hole.

(I claim no expertise in these matters, I'm just trying to get my head round the issues, as I have my own ventilation problems to sort)

Self builder Moycullen

Dinarius wrote: »

PM sent.

D.

Can you please pm me the company also? thanks