Can I get on older pay scale?

Crazy Ivan

Hi all,

I love this forum... Very informative!

Here's my question. I completed a degree (science... Not with education) many years ago and subsequently did a bit of subbing around schools without having any teaching qualification, when it was still possible to do that.

I then completed a postgrad and worked in industry for a few years before coming back to teaching in more recent years. I completed the PME last year and I've been teaching all of this year (very happily, I might add).

My question relates to pay scales. I hadn't thought about this until recently but all of my subbing would have been done between 2004 and 2009. Is there any chance, if I can prove that I was subbing, that I can be put on the old pay scale? I'm very happy getting the pay I get but it doesn't recognise my postgraduate degree, for instance, which makes it as though that was a waste of a few years and actually hampers me from a part point of view. I would have gotten into teaching much earlier if I didn't do the postgrad so I would be getting paid more with get relevant qualifications.

Is anyone else in a someway similar situation or an I just weird? Anyone have any advice?

implausible

If any of your subbing was in an ETB school then you were technically qualified with your degree. If you can then get a statement of service from them documenting the hours worked, then you could get on the old scale. Every 600 hours worked moves you up one point on the incremental scale.

I don't know about voluntary schools.

TheDriver

Your best bet is to contact your union who will help you in your case. Make sure you have your evidence e.g. Payslips to hand

getting worse

Ivan, I don't think you will be put on the old scale as I don't think they take into to account "non-qualified" teaching i.e. any teaching done prior to your PME. I could be wrong but I don't think so.

heldel00

Primary school here. My situation is that there was a 26 week gap between one job and the next so, irrespective of days worked previously, i was considered a new entrant ie:new payscale (Or in my case - new pension scheme.)

mtoutlemonde

getting worse wrote: »

Ivan, I don't think you will be put on the old scale as I don't think they take into to account "non-qualified" teaching i.e. any teaching done prior to your PME. I could be wrong but I don't think so.

If you worked in a VEC (ETB) school prior to 2012/13 - I don't know the year it changed but the only requirement to teach was a bachelors degree therefore you were fully qualified and should be on the old scale.

r93kaey5p2izun

The requirement to have a teaching qualification for the VEC only came in in 2013. You were considered fully qualified with just a degree. However you did have to be TC registered to receive the qualified rate after around 2007 - but your work from 2004 would predate the establishment of the TC.. The 26-week break in service only applies to being put on the new pension scheme, not the new pay scale so that's not an issue (but you will be on new pension).

I think you should look for a statement of service from the relevant ETB and look to be put on the new scale. If you could find old pay slips showing you received the qualified rate then that would give you a strong case.

man_no_plan

Lilly Plain Vogue wrote: »

The requirement to have a teaching qualification for the VEC only came in in 2013. You were considered fully qualified with just a degree. However you did have to be TC registered to receive the qualified rate after around 2007 - but your work from 2004 would predate the establishment of the TC.. The 26-week break in service only applies to being put on the new pension scheme, not the new pay scale so that's not an issue (but you will be on new pension).

I think you should look for a statement of service from the relevant ETB and look to be put on the new scale. If you could find old pay slips showing you received the qualified rate then that would give you a strong case.

As in the example from primary above the key is the 26week break in service. Approved leave is covered but otherwise, as far as I know the DES will try to keep you on the old scale. They may recognise service for incremental purposes but the advice I got from a similar situation pre 2004 was that the break in service was the problem.

r93kaey5p2izun

man_no_plan wrote: »

As in the example from primary above the key is the 26week break in service. Approved leave is covered but otherwise, as far as I know the DES will try to keep you on the old scale. They may recognise service for incremental purposes but the advice I got from a similar situation pre 2004 was that the break in service was the problem.

Yes it's only unapproved leave that counts as a break in service. But a break in service definitely does not change your pay scale, just pension.

joebloggs32

Lilly Plain Vogue wrote: »

Yes it's only unapproved leave that counts as a break in service. But a break in service definitely does not change your pay scale, just pension.

As far as I know the 26 week break in service will affect what rate someone gets if it is not approved leave. Op should try anyway and for increments. Join a union if not in one yet and they will assist your claim.

r93kaey5p2izun

joebloggs32 wrote: »

As far as I know the 26 week break in service will affect what rate someone gets if it is not approved leave. Op should try anyway and for increments. Join a union if not in one yet and they will assist your claim.

Well all I can say is that that has not been the case for any of colleagues who have had unapproved breaks of more than 26 weeks. This is very common for those subbing and in casual contracts where not being paid over summer followed by a delay picking up work again easily adds up to 26 weeks. Also subs who are out due to pregnancy but not entitled to any maternity payment from DES/ETB - this is unapproved leave. They have all gone on new pension but none on new payscale. One was gone for nearly 4 years to have her family.

man_no_plan

man_no_plan wrote: »

As in the example from primary above the key is the 26week break in service. Approved leave is covered but otherwise, as far as I know the DES will try to keep you on the old scale. They may recognise service for incremental purposes but the advice I got from a similar situation pre 2004 was that the break in service was the problem.

Apologies, I meant to say keep you on the new scale. My info was that the break in service made uma teacher a 'New Entrant'.

The difference with the 04 scheme was that there was no difference in payscales

Crazy Ivan

Many thanks for all of the useful posts. From what I can see, any work in voluntary secondary schools is basically useless to me (bar the obvious experience helping me subsequently). I have contacted the ETB in a region where I worked in order to get a statement of service. I'm still waiting on that. I'm hoping that it shows I was paid at a level that included my postgrad qualification... We'll see.

I am an ASTI member, so I plan to run it by them once I have the statement of work. They can definitively clarify the situation regarding having been greater than 28 weeks out of work.

Thanks again for all the great advice.

mtoutlemonde

Crazy Ivan wrote: »

Many thanks for all of the useful posts. From what I can see, any work in voluntary secondary schools is basically useless to me (bar the obvious experience helping me subsequently). I have contacted the ETB in a region where I worked in order to get a statement of service. I'm still waiting on that. I'm hoping that it shows I was paid at a level that included my postgrad qualification... We'll see.

I am an ASTI member, so I plan to run it by them once I have the statement of work. They can definitively clarify the situation regarding having been greater than 28 weeks out of work.

Thanks again for all the great advice.

You didn't have to have a postgrad in the VEC system. Once you worked as a teacher - you were deemed qualified. I know this from experience because I got my allowances from subbing I did with the then VEC. It's worth looking into anyway. Good luck.

SlinkyL

More inequality. I subbed in voluntary schools with science degree in 2002 and can't get onto old scale, qualified 2013. Had i subbed in different school I would now be earning substantially more money.

r93kaey5p2izun

SlinkyL wrote: »

More inequality. I subbed in voluntary schools with science degree in 2002 and can't get onto old scale, qualified 2013. Had i subbed in different school I would now be earning substantially more money.

Yes this is another inequality but it is one that had existed in teaching for decades. At least it is one that is removed going forward, except for the legacy of teachers registered as VEC only and a few like the OP who can access the old scale based on earlier VEC work.

gilderbeast

Excuse my ignorance but could someone explain what a voluntary school is? I also worked as a sub in 2007/08 in a school run by a religious order. Is that a voluntary school? I qualified in 2013 and I've been working in the International School system in Asia since. (I also did my NQT year in the UK). I would love to move home to Ireland but I'm worried about securing work. My subjects are History and CSPE and I've also 12 years experience working with EAL students. WhaT chances have I of securing a position and getting on the old pay scale? Thanks everyone...

mtoutlemonde

gilderbeast wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but could someone explain what a voluntary school is? I also worked as a sub in 2007/08 in a school run by a religious order. Is that a voluntary school? I qualified in 2013 and I've been working in the International School system in Asia since. (I also did my NQT year in the UK). I would love to move home to Ireland but I'm worried about securing work. My subjects are History and CSPE and I've also 12 years experience working with EAL students. WhaT chances have I of securing a position and getting on the old pay scale? Thanks everyone...

Yes a voluntary secondary school is as you explained ... a school set up by a religious order. When you subbed in the vol sec school had you a dip? If so there may be a chance but if you weren't I'm afraid it's a no. I'd say you would be extremely lucky to find a full time job with your own hours with your subjects.

red_scarlett34

Crazy Ivan wrote: »

Hi all,

I love this forum... Very informative!

Here's my question. I completed a degree (science... Not with education) many years ago and subsequently did a bit of subbing around schools without having any teaching qualification, when it was still possible to do that.

I then completed a postgrad and worked in industry for a few years before coming back to teaching in more recent years. I completed the PME last year and I've been teaching all of this year (very happily, I might add).

My question relates to pay scales. I hadn't thought about this until recently but all of my subbing would have been done between 2004 and 2009. Is there any chance, if I can prove that I was subbing, that I can be put on the old pay scale? I'm very happy getting the pay I get but it doesn't recognise my postgraduate degree, for instance, which makes it as though that was a waste of a few years and actually hampers me from a part point of view. I would have gotten into teaching much earlier if I didn't do the postgrad so I would be getting paid more with get relevant qualifications.

Is anyone else in a someway similar situation or an I just weird? Anyone have any advice?

Hi Ivan,

I qualified with my teaching diploma in 2011 but am on the old scale.

I did subbing in 2003 in a voluntary school, before I even got my B.A. (2006) or teaching qualifications (in 2011).

My old payslips were enough for me to get onto the old, pre-2011 scale. It does not matter whether you were qualified as long as you did subbing work in a school, it was department paid and you had a payroll number. In doing so you were entered into the system pre-2011.

Don't even think I needed to involve the ASTI.
If you can find your old payslips it would make a huge difference. If you can't find them, you can request a statement of service from Payroll, just give them your payroll number (maybe it was a different one back then as was the case for me).
Contact the Dept. of Education Payroll and they should sort this out for you.

I'm afraid though you might not qualify for the allowances, if you see http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/allowances/

I hope this helps.

gaiscioch

Just going on my own experience I'm not quite sure some advice here is correct. In my case, for instance, I did unqualified subbing in a voluntary secondary school in the year before I started the Dip. I was paid by the DoES for that.

As I sorted out pension stuff last year I checked about that work and they 1) allowed me to buy pension entitlements for it and 2) allowed me to be paid under the pre-2011/post-2004 salary and conditions and was considered my entry year in terms of salary and pension rights.

dory

gaiscioch wrote: »

Just going on my own experience I'm not quite sure some advice here is correct. In my case, for instance, I did unqualified subbing in a voluntary secondary school in the year before I started the Dip. I was paid by the DoES for that.

As I sorted out pension stuff last year I checked about that work and they 1) allowed me to buy pension entitlements for it and 2) allowed me to be paid under the pre-2011/post-2004 salary and conditions and was considered my entry year in terms of salary and pension rights.

Can I ask what year you finished the Dip? Sounds like I'm in a very similar position to you and I would like to buy pension entitlements. I'm clueless about all thing pension related. When you say it's considered pre-2011 for salary do you get Dip allowance/masters allowance? I'm on old pay scale because of subbing beforehand but only get degree allowance as wasn't getting allowances when subbing.
Seems like it depends, depending on who answers the phone in the department.

red_scarlett34

SlinkyL wrote: »

More inequality. I subbed in voluntary schools with science degree in 2002 and can't get onto old scale, qualified 2013. Had i subbed in different school I would now be earning substantially more money.

Hi SlinkyL, sorry for replying to an old thread. I'm surprised you can't get on the old scale having worked in a voluntary secondary school, which is what I did when I didn't even have my primary degree, and I'm on the old scale (qualified in 2011). Have you still got your old payslips from 2002? I'd say you might have a case here. Were you Department paid?

mtoutlemonde

red_scarlett34 wrote: »

Hi SlinkyL, sorry for replying to an old thread. I'm surprised you can't get on the old scale having worked in a voluntary secondary school, which is what I did when I didn't even have my primary degree, and I'm on the old scale (qualified in 2011). Have you still got your old payslips from 2002? I'd say you might have a case here. Were you Department paid?

You probably just made the cut off in 2011 for allowances. There was another one up to February 12 so that's why you're getting the old rate.