Change to electric now, or run existing car into the ground?

Orebro

Hi all,

Have been browsing this forum for a while now, and you have got me thinking! EV never even entered my head until recently.

So I am currently driving a 10 year old 2.0 litre petrol Mondeo. I have a commute to work of about 18KM, 60% of which is in city traffic. I reckon I'm spending anywhere between €160 to €200 on petrol per month, not to mention the €710 per annum road tax (which I normally do 6 monthly it's more like €800).

The way I normally have cars is I get them around 5 to 6 years old, generally petrol guzzlers are they are cheap, and basically drive them into the ground, then rinse and repeat. It has always been the case that it would never save me money to change the car sooner, even for a more fuel efficient one as I wouldn't save any money in the long run. Which is why thinking about changing to EV is so alien to me :-)

What I'm looking at is a 2014 onwards Leaf. An Acenta spec would be the only requirement, since my mileage is so small and we have an ICE as the other car, so a 3.3 / 24kwh battery would do nicely. Colour doesn't bother me either so I would hopefully have a good choice. Charge times not an issue, would charge overnight at home. I would probably head to the UK since the exchange rate is so good at the moment there appears to be a couple of grand in savings. Of course the really helpful UK guides on here are a huge benefit.

Anyway, what do you folks think? Drive on with the Mondeo until it goes no further, or make the jump to a Leaf now? I guess once I have the home charger installed, get onto night rate electricity the savings should start straight away? Would €11K be as realistic budget for the car above? Am I missing anything?

Evd-Burner

I had exactly the same decision to make as you. Except I had double the commute distance and a diesel Mondeo.

For me there was no cost to change as the extra running costs of the Mondeo completely covered the cost of the Leaf with a little extra left over.

But the savings are only part of the story, the car is an absolute dream to drive. It has been a long time since I've actually enjoyed driving, my daily commute has become much easier.

You should be able to pick up a 2014 SV 3.3kw Leaf for 11,500 easily enough. So if you had a loan of say 230 a month it would be covered by the savings in running costs.

KCross

Look at these from the UK:
https://speakev.com/threads/lots-and-lots-of-used-nissan-leaf-from-115-deposit-115-per-month-8kpa-36-month-pcp.41449/

This particular one is a 142 and it has the bonus of the 6.6kW charger.

MM64CWW --- 49816 --- Acenta 6.6kW --- White --- £9,500.00


You'd have that landed for a little over €11k

I'm sure you could get cheaper ones but its a good indication. For your mileage if you could get a 132 that is a Gen 1.5 car you should get it for under €10k.

peposhi

Orebro wrote:

The way I normally have cars is I get them around 5 to 6 years old, generally petrol guzzlers are they are cheap, and basically drive them into the ground, then rinse and repeat. It has always been the case that it would never save me money to change the car sooner, even for a more fuel efficient one as I wouldn't save any money in the long run. Which is why thinking about changing to EV is so alien to me :-)

Orebro wrote:

What I'm looking at is a 2014 onwards Leaf. An Acenta spec would be the only requirement, since my mileage is so small and we have an ICE as the other car, so a 3.3 / 24kwh battery would do nicely. Colour doesn't bother me either so I would hopefully have a good choice. Charge times not an issue, would charge overnight at home. I would probably head to the UK since the exchange rate is so good at the moment there appears to be a couple of grand in savings. Of course the really helpful UK guides on here are a huge benefit.

Orebro wrote:

So I am currently driving a 10 year old 2.0 litre petrol Mondeo. I have a commute to work of about 18KM, 60% of which is in city traffic. I reckon I'm spending anywhere between €160 to €200 on petrol per month, not to mention the €710 per annum road tax (which I normally do 6 monthly it's more like €800).

Orebro wrote:

Have been browsing this forum for a while now, and you have got me thinking! EV never even entered my head until recently.

You are the perfect customer for an EV. I would not think twice if I were you...

Orebro

Thanks for the advice all. I'll have a search online for what's available toniught then. I've just found out that my workplace has 3 charging points available to staff so that's an added bonus!

By the way, I blame Unkel for my gas guzzler addiction over the years - his posts on the Motors forum about big petrol cars being great value is what got me into my current groove - I guess I'm just following in his footsteps! ðŸ˜

unkel

You're not missing anything. I just made the move myself. From a 14 year old worthless but reliable gaz guzzler to a brand new EV. The new car is actually costing me less to own, total cost of ownership including depreciation. Hard to believe, but true. A simplified overview:

Old car: tax (1700) + fuel (2500) + depreciation and maintenance (0) = €4,200
New car: tax (120) + fuel (100) + depreciation and maintenance (3000) = €3,220

I saved myself €1000 per year by scrapping my banger and buying a brand new car.

unkel

Haha missed that post

Big gaz guzzlers are still great value. I'm holding onto my old skool thirsty 6 cylinder sports car for the weekends :cool:

Only in very recent times, EVs have become a credible choice of family car though. The wallet said go for it

Orebro

unkel wrote: »

Haha missed that post

Big gaz guzzlers are still great value. I'm holding onto my old skool thirsty 6 cylinder sports car for the weekends :cool:

Only in very recent times, EVs have become a credible choice of family car though. The wallet said go for it

That's why this concept is so alien to me. Still trying to get my brain to accept the fact that it makes sense to change to EV right away.

Fiskar

unkel wrote: »

You're not missing anything. I just made the move myself. From a 14 year old worthless but reliable gaz guzzler to a brand new EV. The new car is actually costing me less to own, total cost of ownership including depreciation. Hard to believe, but true. A simplified overview:

Old car: tax (1700) + fuel (2500) + depreciation and maintenance (0) = €4,200
New car: tax (120) + fuel (100) + depreciation and maintenance (3000) = €3,220

I saved myself €1000 per year by scrapping my banger and buying a brand new car.

Think your old ICE would put a smile on your face quicker than an EV Ioniq

I have the same situation as the OP. My thinking would be a. get a 2 to 4 yr old ICE where initial hit on depreciation is taken by seller. b. Get a car that will put a smile on my face.

While the savings you indicate are just €1000 per year, they will dimish once the government figure out how to fleece the cash cow that is the Irish EV motorist. My only other concern is technology advances in electric vehicles will make models sold today out of date in 3 years time. I am NOT sold on EV just yet.

goz83

Fiskar wrote: »

Think your old ICE would put a smile on your face quicker than an EV Ioniq

I have the same situation as the OP. My thinking would be a. get a 2 to 4 yr old ICE where initial hit on depreciation is taken by seller. b. Get a car that will put a smile on my face.

While the savings you indicate are just €1000 per year, they will dimish once the government figure out how to fleece the cash cow that is the Irish EV motorist. My only other concern is technology advances in electric vehicles will make models sold today out of date in 3 years time. I am sold on EV just yet.

little sub-conscious slip there?

The EV puts many smiles on my face....and we are talking a fecking Nissan Leaf here :pac:

I bought it 3 years old, so the depreciation hit was taken by the first owner (a lady doctor).

Sure, I could have bought another ICE, but the EV makes complete sense. I certainly hope the tech improves and the quicker, the better. It won't take anything away from what I purchased, because I plan to keep it for at keast 5 years anyway. Any loss from a sale, will be a gain in efficiency when I buy another 3 year old EV.

Fiskar

goz83 wrote: »

little sub-conscious slip there?

The EV puts many smiles on my face....and we are talking a fecking Nissan Leaf here :pac:

I bought it 3 years old, so the depreciation hit was taken by the first owner (a lady doctor).

Sure, I could have bought another ICE, but the EV makes complete sense. I certainly hope the tech improves and the quicker, the better. It won't take anything away from what I purchased, because I plan to keep it for at keast 5 years anyway. Any loss from a sale, will be a gain in efficiency when I buy another 3 year old EV.

That's the smart way at the moment to buy any car, tech will improve on EV especially, tax on diesels and who knows with petrol.

Mope

unkel wrote: »

You're not missing anything. I just made the move myself. From a 14 year old worthless but reliable gaz guzzler to a brand new EV. The new car is actually costing me less to own, total cost of ownership including depreciation. Hard to believe, but true. A simplified overview:

Old car: tax (1700) + fuel (2500) + depreciation and maintenance (0) = €4,200
New car: tax (120) + fuel (100) + depreciation and maintenance (3000) = €3,220

I saved myself €1000 per year by scrapping my banger and buying a brand new car.

How did you calculate depreciation and maintenance to be 3000?

unkel

Very rudimentary if I'm honest. Something like:

Car €25k, keep 7 years and sell for €6k. That's €2700 depreciation per year. Plus €99 for annual service plus a bit for tyres and other stuff. About €3k per year.

Fiskar

unkel wrote: »

Haha missed that post

Big gaz guzzlers are still great value. I'm holding onto my old skool thirsty 6 cylinder sports car for the weekends :cool:

Only in very recent times, EVs have become a credible choice of family car though. The wallet said go for it

ICE or EV, cars are cars, cities don't want them, governments love them (all cars are cash cows), will look to get the Kawasaki 650 back on the road.

BTW, how do you get your 2 cars insured so you can switch at weekends Unkel?

unkel

Fiskar wrote: »

all cars are cash cows

Not EVs. Government had to pay €10k subsidy on my car (they got zero VRT back on that and only about €7k VAT, so they lost €3k there straight away)

Tax was only €120 a year, hardly a nice earner and they paid for me to have a free install point and they are paying for free fast charging. They only make about €0.15 in VAT every time I fully charge my car at home

My car is not a cash cow

Fiskar wrote: »

BTW, how do you get your 2 cars insured so you can switch at weekends Unkel?

Family car is my wife's car for insurance (about €300-€400 fully comp). I'm a named driver. Porsche is on classic insurance in my name (based on the fact that I'm a named driver on a regular insurance). €340 fully comp.

isnottheword

Fiskar wrote: »

Think your old ICE would put a smile on your face quicker than an EV Ioniq

My Gen 1.5 Leaf puts a smile on my face every time it passes a filling station.

Fiskar wrote: »

While the savings you indicate are just €1000 per year, they will dimish once the government figure out how to fleece the cash cow that is the Irish EV motorist.

I've saved €1300 in 8 months. Yes of course .gov will end up (ultimately) in charging us all road usage based charge eventually - once this all settles back down again. However, Ireland is a long way behind in EV adoption - so you are going to miss a few years of opportunity whilst this switchover occurs. They have to be kind to EV's right now and for the next couple of years in order to coax the switch from ICE to EV (which will also ultimately be accompanied by 'stick' by way of ever increasing motor taxes on ICE's (particularly diesels) going forward.

Fiskar wrote: »

My only other concern is technology advances in electric vehicles will make models sold today out of date in 3 years time.

This was a fear for me also when I switched. However, there's not that much more of depreciation on EV's in comparison with ICE's when all is said and done. You can really help yourself out a lot by buying in to a 3 + year old EV - which has already shed the majority of it's depreciation.

Fiskar wrote: »

I am NOT sold on EV just yet.

And when you are sold, many of these incentives will be gone or nearly gone.

unkel

That's exactly it, isnottheword. Current EV owners got / are getting huge benefits from the incentives and it will probably last for another while. None of us are banking on it to last forever but every day longer is just a bonus

Fiskar

Savings are too small for me to change. I will come to EV when the range reaches 500km and not before then.

isnottheword

Fiskar wrote: »

Savings are too small for me to change. I will come to EV when the range reaches 500km and not before then.

Everyone has to gauge it for themselves - no doubt. However, don't expect there to be massive savings to be made at that point. I guess it will be more 'stick' than carrot by then i.e. people on legacy ICE's getting punished via high motor tax rates.

unkel

Fiskar wrote: »

Savings are too small for me to change. I will come to EV when the range reaches 500km and not before then.

Range is already over 500km. But it will cost ya

What car do you currently own and what km do you do per year?

unkel

I like free carrots and I don't like the stick (taxes)

punisher5112

Its something I'm getting a real itch for...

I know I was asking few questions on other thread and to be honest I'm brutal at working out the figures.

Driving 2.0 petrol vRS getting up to around 35 mpg and yes have checked it out on the fuel fill up method. Obviously depending on driving style or mood I'm in of course.

Car stands me nothing at this stage and would be keeping it either way, longest car ever had and hasnt dropped a beat once.

Just wondering how others get on that are renting as putting in a night meter is out and highly unlikely on the charge point also.

I'm driving Wicklow town to rathfarnham and few other places close by and back usually 6 days and that journey would be there and back and on occasions I could be doing the school run where I would be doing 25 mile there then home and school and home again in the one day.

I would still have access to other car on certain days but would be using EV as daily drive.


Just wondering what sort of set up cost I would be looking at and what sort of loan I could get from credit union as I believe its 7.5% for car loan.

Someone here that has one may be better to tell me if its possible or if I'm dreaming. I would hope to charge mostly from home at night but obviously would not have night rate.

If one of you very helpful posters could work out some figures for me it would be very much appreciated.

isnottheword

punisher5112 wrote: »

Driving 2.0 petrol vRS getting up to around 35 mpg and yes have checked it out on the fuel fill up method. Obviously depending on driving style or mood I'm in of course.

35mpg would bother me - but then, that's me.

punisher5112 wrote: »

Just wondering how others get on that are renting as putting in a night meter is out and highly unlikely on the charge point also.

Do you have an opportunity to charge at work? Are you off-street and renting? If so, then maybe you can use a granny cable (charger via three pin plug - slow as christmas but does the job - and is fine where you want to charge it overnight).
You could check out nearby public chargers but I don't think it would be wise to switch to EV on the basis of charging on these alone. It could be that local chargers are not in use so much (or at a time when you would be likely to charge - check the ecars map and see real time charging status). However, EV numbers are modestly increasing so even if not busy right now, they may become busy. Secondly, fees are inevitable to be brought in on the public charging system - I'd imagine within the next 12 months. You couldn't justify using them 100% of the time at that point.

punisher5112 wrote: »

I'm driving Wicklow town to rathfarnham and few other places close by and back usually 6 days and that journey would be there and back and on occasions I could be doing the school run where I would be doing 25 mile there then home and school and home again in the one day.

What's your average yearly mileage? What is the normal journey distance on a day to day basis? Can you use another car for occasional long distance journeys (assuming they are occasional??)?

punisher5112 wrote: »

Just wondering what sort of set up cost I would be looking at and what sort of loan I could get from credit union as I believe its 7.5% for car loan.

See above - is it even a runner in the first instance? If so, then before you consider finance, you need to determine what you need i.e. which EV - at what pricepoint - new or used and if the latter, how much do you want to spend? I'm not a fan of finance but I assume if you're earning, then finance is always possible. Figure out what you need and what you can afford and work it out from there.

If your motivation in switching to EV is with a view towards cost cutting, then you need to factor in the cost of finance into the overall decision.

punisher5112

Hi isnotheword I wouldn't be doing double trips every day but would be sometimes and yes I have access to another car or 2 if needed for bigger trips.

Normal day in miles would be up to 60miles that would be to work and back maybe a little more.

School run would be similar distance and this would be mainly n11/m11,

Access to charge at work is a no.
I would invisage use of public charge points to be minimal and would plan on charging mostly at home. Rented house has its own drive so no issue there.

I would probably be looking at 1.5 gen I would guess for distance I would be travelling.

I'm just toying with the idea of it if I were to save money from amount its costing in petrol and tax as its €710 but at the moment can only do 3monthly so costing €800

I'll have to see about fuel but most of the time it is either €138.9 or €139.9 a litre.

isnottheword

punisher5112 wrote: »

Hi isnotheword I wouldn't be doing double trips every day but would be sometimes and yes I have access to another car or 2 if needed for bigger trips.

So sometimes 120 miles/day? You'd either need a Ioniq or you'd need to get a public charger top-up on those days to get you through.

punisher5112 wrote: »

I'm just toying with the idea of it if I were to save money from amount its costing in petrol and tax as its €710 but at the moment can only do 3monthly so costing €800
I'll have to see about fuel but most of the time it is either €138.9 or €139.9 a litre.

Check your last nct cert for mileage - then check the mileage figure on that date against current mileage - and you should be able to work out average annual mileage - then do your calcs on that. Factor in any servicing costs and repairs you've carried out in the past year on the petrol. EVs are not without maintenance but unless you're unlucky, should be damn all maintenance required.

The Gen. 1.5 should be possible in a 2014/5 for somewhere in the €9000-€11,000 price range. If you're going to finance that (or part of that), you'll need to factor in that cost to figure out if you're going to be saving cash or otherwise.

punisher5112

On the days I would do 2 runs I would be able to charge for around 3 to 4 hours in between.

I would be doing a good bit of mileage and as I said have use of other car so can do even more at times as I would take the other car at times.

Its so hard re fueling up to 2 times in one week and if doing say a long trip the car will do about 400miles to a tank depending.

unkel

If you are getting 35mpg out of your petrol vRS then you are obviously not enjoying the car. Not getting any good out of it. I was the same with my Jaguar. Driving it gently with a light foot as the petrol cost was hurting me. The 3l V6 petrol with 240BHP was wasted on me. But I still suffered the tax and the petrol.

As for the night meter and renting. The ESB will come out and install a night meter for free. Your landlord might not have an issue with this at all, talk to him! Also get some quotes for the install of a charge point. Then talk to your landlord. You might be able to convince him to make a contribution towards the cost of the install. And even if he refused that, he would hardly object to you paying for the install? It would be a feature that would not make his house worth more, but it might make it easier for him to sell it on in future.

punisher5112

unkel wrote: »

If you are getting 35mpg out of your petrol vRS then you are obviously not enjoying the car. Not getting any good out of it. I was the same with my Jaguar. Driving it gently with a light foot as the petrol cost was hurting me. The 3l V6 petrol with 240BHP was wasted on me. But I still suffered the tax and the petrol.

As for the night meter and renting. The ESB will come out and install a night meter for free. Your landlord might not have an issue with this at all, talk to him! Also get some quotes for the install of a charge point. Then talk to your landlord. You might be able to convince him to make a contribution towards the cost of the install. And even if he refused that, he would hardly object to you paying for the install? It would be a feature that would not make his house worth more, but it might make it easier for him to sell it on in future.

I could do most work myself on install as use to be sparks apprentice for nearly 4 years just failed 1 exam out of 4 but stayed on a little but lost out wit recession.

I have a friend who could sign off no issues.

LL are brutal to be honest and way things have been we haven't stayed in a house longer then 1year 6 months due to previous issues, increases and bank take overseas.

I was probably giving too high an mpg as in that would be sometimes. It hovers around 30 mostly and of course it can be lower as I do have a heavy right foot just have to watch the licence so keeps me down a lot.

Soarer

Well Orebro, I was humming and hawing for around 2 years in the same situation as you, and finally bit the bullet yesterday.

My old car was a 2001 1.7 diesel Astra. I was putting around €80 per month in in fuel, and it was €153 a quarter in tax. I didn't even take into account maintenance and annual nct. So that's a minimum of €1600 per year.
I've been trying to stay out of debt and save for everything I need, but it was costing me more to do and pay for the running of the car that than borrow the money for a Leaf and pay it back!
So I borrowed €6k from the credit union, and using my current saving rate (around €400 per month), I'll have the car paid back in less than 18 months.

I could up my repayments by what I'm saving on running costs, but this way I'm getting a much newer car and a pay rise!

My Leaf has lost its first 2 cells, so it's total range is down. But it'll be a long while before it drops below my daily round trip of around 25kms.
There are bargains to be had.

Fiskar

unkel wrote: »

Range is already over 500km. But it will cost ya

What car do you currently own and what km do you do per year?

S40 1.6D, 25k km per year

No charge points at work. Charge points few and far between at train station (which will be a problem shortly as more EV hit the road)

How much does a charge point at the house cost, if there is a grant I might get that done.

Mope

Fiskar is if you get new car soon it will be free of charge (first 2000 EVs in Ireland gets that)
If you install yourself I am not sure but I think it's under 1000, have not investigated this myself as bought new for above reasons.

isnottheword

Mope wrote: »

Fiskar is if you get new car soon it will be free of charge (first 2000 EVs in Ireland gets that)
If you install yourself I am not sure but I think it's under 1000, have not investigated this myself as bought new for above reasons.

ESB / Ecars suggest the value of the free install is 1000 euro. However, if you are savvy about it, you can get this done for much less (in the event that you buy 2nd hand and need to organise installation yourself).

I picked up an unused chargemaster chargepoint in the UK - and picked it up an hour down the road from where I was picking up my car. Cost me GB 150. Install involved a couple of meters of cable from electrical consumer unit to point on wall outside - any sparks can do this install. Cost me buttons (as a friend of the family did it).

Sounds like you don't have that long of a commute and you can charge via night-rate electricity for 6 cents / kWh.

Mope

Definitely good investment. Better than always granny charge via your pigeon hole or vent in the wall

goz83

Fiskar wrote: »

S40 1.6D, 25k km per year

No charge points at work. Charge points few and far between at train station (which will be a problem shortly as more EV hit the road)

How much does a charge point at the house cost, if there is a grant I might get that done.

If buying used car, there is no grant, but you'll save buckets of cash.

I went for a Rolec CP which also has a 3pin connection (handy for power washer) and I needed a prioriy board for the electric shower. It all set me back around €800. But shop around....because some con quoted me over €900 even though I was supplying the CP.

Bigus

unkel wrote: »

You're not missing anything. I just made the move myself. From a 14 year old worthless but reliable gaz guzzler to a brand new EV. The new car is actually costing me less to own, total cost of ownership including depreciation. Hard to believe, but true. A simplified overview:

Old car: tax (1700) + fuel (2500) + depreciation and maintenance (0) = €4,200
New car: tax (120) + fuel (100) + depreciation and maintenance (3000) = €3,220

I saved myself €1000 per year by scrapping my banger and buying a brand new car.

I thought your financials were a bit fanciful Unkel but here's a quote from electrek review of an Ioniq

"Take the slide below as an example. The IONIQ EV costs $.81/25 miles to drive over the life of the car. Compare that to Most EVs around $1 and Hybrids over $1 and of course, ICE vehicles are over $2. That is a significant savings – about a third the cost of a typical ICE car. If you drive 2500 miles/month, that’s savings of $150/month which runs up pretty close to the leasing price of this car. It is almost free"

And that's in America with no vrt, which adds seriously to depreciation here in Ireland.

https://electrek.co/2017/04/05/hyundai-ioniq-ev-review/

unkel

Can't really compare. There is no VRT on the Ioniq in Ireland either. They do have massive tax incentives in the US for EVs though at least $7.5k in every state and a lot more in some states, in some states in the US, depending on the tax benefits, you can own an Ioniq for not much more than nothing!

In my financials the tax, insurance, maintance or easy to see, but I understand the fuel is a bit hard to just believe. How can it be just €100 per year, right? Here's why.

Our cheapeast night rate is about 6c / kWh incl. VAT, which means you can charge up the Ioniq from 0-100% for about €1.80 which will give you over 200km even if you drive like a lunatic. So even without any free charging, 12k km per year would cost €100 per year in electricity. So far it has cost me €0.00 in electricity

The average car does 18k km per year in Ireland, which would cost about €150 in the Ioniq...

unkel

Depreciation on the Ioniq, again simplified: bought all in for €25k, free charge point. After 7 years car is worth €6k, so depreciation of €2,700 per year. Money was sitting in my account not making any interest, so my opportunity cost of money was zero. Maintenance is €99 per year for full service at dealer. Tyres maybe once every 3 years, so no more than about €200 per year. You rarely / never need new brake pads / disks on an EV if regen is aggressive...

Mope

I guess my situation is a bit different. I went with HP and my car was 26k+ with trade in. Monthly payments of 460+ EUR per month.
I have track record of last 5 years of all expenses (app used: aCar) on my Subaru Legacy 2005 N/A (without Tax/Insurance counted even!) and all in all paying for Ioniq is only roughly 100 EUR more than I am paying now. So to me it's very good value for getting new car, excitement and also be a Better person

unkel

Any date yet, Mope? Hopefully today or tomorrow?

Mope

if car arrives before 11-12 today to dealership, I collect it noon... if not - tomorrow. At this stage I am not even waiting for anything (too much disappointment suffered already). When it comes, it comes

unkel

Well the good thing is that the software / firmware is up to date (latest version sorted out a few minor issues) and the brake issue is now sorted (from factory), so you can drive straight off and enjoy the car. Hopefully soon

Mope

Is there a way to get in to a screen where Software/Firmware version is displayed and which one is the latest, it would kill me to bring car back to dealer for this to be looked at. Just because I was so disappointed last Friday hearing bad news.

unkel

There is, in the menu somewhere, easy enough to find. Once you get the car, take a screenshot and post it here, I'll tell you if it's the latest version. I'd say it will be - from factory. I didn't get the impression that my Hyundai dealer did anything to it