Navan road changes from 18th April 2017

thomasj

Good news for people travelling outbound by bus on the navan road !

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services/roads-and-traffic

A bus priority scheme on the Navan Rd westbound between Skreen Road and Nephin Road has been developed by Dublin City Council that will provide improved priority for buses that are frequently delayed along this section of roadway especially during the evening peak.

The bus priority scheme consists of:

The provision of a new bus lane between Skreen Rd and Nephin Rd,
The removal of on street parking between Skreen Rd and Nephin Rd,
A permanent right turn ban outbound from Navan Rd to Nephin Rd.

The scheme will be implemented in full on Tuesday 18th April 2017.

Hopefully it's only the start.

bobbyss

What is the distance between Screen Rd and Nephin Rd do you know? What impact will it have?

Zaph

bobbyss wrote: »

What is the distance between Screen Rd and Nephin Rd do you know? What impact will it have?

It's only 350m, so I think the impact will be minimal.

Pale Red

No road markings yet. Any word on when it will actually begin?

Infini

Probably abandoned again this is like the 2nd time they attempted to put this in and yet its just stopped. Wonder if the residents nearby are protesting about it.

Mr.Frame

I see tonight, on the opposite side of the road i.e heading into town, they have effectively removed what was a cycle lane and made the bus lane less wide, new road marking in place.
Before, it was a little wider and the cycle lane was incorporated into the bus lane.

Colm R

Being familiar with this road, and a very similar road in Cork (Western Road through to Wilton), I've always wondered if a single bus lane in the middle of the road which reverses flow in the middle of the day would be a possible solution? Not saying it would work, but for most of both roads, there is only space for three lanes

LXFlyer

Colm R wrote: »

Being familiar with this road, and a very similar road in Cork (Western Road through to Wilton), I've always wondered if a single bus lane in the middle of the road which reverses flow in the middle of the day would be a possible solution? Not saying it would work, but for most of both roads, there is only space for three lanes

How would you cope with bus stops and buses passing one another at stops if you had a bi-directional bus lane in the centre of the road?

People still have to get on and off the buses, and also have to do that safely.

Colm R

lxflyer wrote: »

How would you cope with bus stops and buses passing one another at stops?

People still have to get on and off safely.

I guess something like platforms in the middle of the road, similar to this:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3290111,-6.3343493,3a,24.6y,47.77h,88.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sru3jox6t_yFpdOP-qKknMQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Probably not as wide, and perhaps staggered inbound and outbound to take up less width on the road.
And as far as possible, have them adjacent to kerbside bus stop, so that its obvious that between hours say 06:00 to 13:00 you can use this bus stop, and between 13:00 and 23:59 you use that one over there ;-)

I guess in the middle of the day, you'd have a time period where the lane would entirely close in both directions before opening again.

I'm not an expert in this field, so its just a thought. I have never seen this done with public transport anywhere, but I have seen it with regular traffic switching direction to suit the rush hour - in Brisbane and I think the Golden Gate also.

Pale Red

Mr.Frame wrote: »

I see tonight, on the opposite side of the road i.e heading into town, they have effectively removed what was a cycle lane and made the bus lane less wide, new road marking in place.
Before, it was a little wider and the cycle lane was incorporated into the bus lane.

I heard its due to open on Monday 12 June. I haven't been that way for a while - are change to road markings or signage?

Mr.Frame

Pale Red wrote: »

I heard its due to open on Monday 12 June. I haven't been that way for a while - are change to road markings or signage?

Was on it yesterday friday, Bus lane in operation. Traffic on the Navan Rd was bad before this change,now multiply it by 100 and you will get an idea.
Horrendous

LXFlyer

Mr.Frame wrote: »

Was on it yesterday friday, Bus lane in operation. Traffic on the Navan Rd was bad before this change,now multiply it by 100 and you will get an idea.
Horrendous

And how are the buses doing?

Mr.Frame

lxflyer wrote: »

And how are the buses doing?

Swimmingly well

LXFlyer

Mr.Frame wrote: »

Swimmingly well

Isn't that pretty much the point of this? ;-)

trellheim

I presume we are talking about outbound ? I've always wondered about this - essentially its opening into a motorway at the far end - why doesnt it move faster .

Would signalling the Ashtown gate roundabout help

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

How would you cope with bus stops and buses passing one another at stops if you had a bi-directional bus lane in the centre of the road?

People still have to get on and off the buses, and also have to do that safely.

Staggered stops or two-lane central stops where there's space.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Staggered stops or two-lane central stops where there's space.

The individual was talking about a single bi-directional lane on the Navan Road - there simply wouldn't be the space for stops for both directions as well.

That was the point I was making.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

The individual was talking about a single bi-directional lane on the Navan Road - there simply wouldn't be the space for stops for both directions as well.

That was the point I was making.

That's why I said staggered stops.

The average width (boundary wall to boundary to wall) is around 21m. In that you can fit something like this:



And that shelter areas is larger than many Luas platforms.

The narrower section is around 18m, with a very small section down to 16m.

An alternate is to shift the westbound bus flow off the Navan Road, one of these options... or something like them...

lucernarian

monument wrote: »

That's why I said staggered stops.

The average width (boundary wall to boundary to wall) is around 21m. In that you can fit something like this:



And that shelter areas is larger than many Luas platforms.

The narrower section is around 18m, with a very small section down to 16m.

An alternate is to shift the westbound bus flow off the Navan Road, one of these options... or something like them...

I've wondered about this, what do do with the 16 metre section?

I suspect there would be objections by residents if there were westbound diversions like that. Not a reflection of my own views, but after seeing what happened with other bus-related proposals like in Swords.

LXFlyer

I think there would be objections from bus passengers to being re-routed off the direct route along the Navan Road down through the housing estates - that's exactly the opposite of what should be happening.

I'm not particularly keen on staggered stops either - that means traffic lanes zig-zagging along the road - hardly an optimal solution.

ThisRegard

Diversions down Blackhorse Avenue will never be a runner, they've been implementing various traffic calming measures over the last 15/20 years to try dissuade people using it as a rat run.

trellheim

37 already uses part of it and seems to get on ok ?

ThisRegard

True, I suppose wrapping it up as a bus corridor would put residents noses out of joint.

LXFlyer

It's fine for one bus route but re-routing all of the other bus routes is not going to happen.

Moving buses further away from the residential areas to the north of the Navan Road would be daft.

monument

lucernarian wrote: »

I've wondered about this, what do do with the 16 metre section?

This is 16m: You could have different variants, like non-segregated cycle paths and bring all the traffic lanes up to 3m each:

lucernarian wrote: »

I suspect there would be objections by residents if there were westbound diversions like that. Not a reflection of my own views, but after seeing what happened with other bus-related proposals like in Swords.

ThisRegard wrote: »

Diversions down Blackhorse Avenue will never be a runner, they've been implementing various traffic calming measures over the last 15/20 years to try dissuade people using it as a rat run.

You'll get objections to everything, it's not a reason not to try something if it's worth trying.

As per bus or BRT / access only roads (or in one direction), would cut rat running. BRT buses can and should be clearer and less noisier buses.

This is a BRT / access only section of a BRT route in Utrecht: https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.0936877,5.1292884,3a,73.8y,45.46h,94.77t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUqtcU7lYcsKNf5iJloLFgw!2e0!5s20160901T000000!7i13312!8i6656 -- BRT only in one direction and BRT/access in the other.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

It's fine for one bus route but re-routing all of the other bus routes is not going to happen.

Moving buses further away from the residential areas to the north of the Navan Road would be daft.

I think you've argued similar before. Primary bus corridors are about rider ship not coverage (Jarret Walker et al), local service and other types of coverage is needed for people who can't walk that far.

In any case, I would argue that this only be done with BRT improvements in frequency, loading times etc.

The BRT route on this route will be something like 22km long, and the detour would be only between 1km and 2.5km. It would be the more reliable route, quicker in heavy traffic, and would make it easier to give city-bound flow strong priority.

The extra walking distance would be between 150m to 300m -- but it would be for good reason, in one direction only and for a higher-frequency and quality service which people are more inclined to walk further to or to a mix of walk/cycle to.

But no area between the Navan Road and the railway would be more than 1km from BRT or Luas (with a tiny added bit of permissibility which is needed to be pushed in any case). The area would be well served by public transport and very well served when Pelletstown station is built.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

I think you've argued similar before. Primary bus corridors are about rider ship not coverage (Jarret Walker et al), local service and other types of coverage is needed for people who can't walk that far.

In any case, I would argue that this only be done with BRT improvements in frequency, loading times etc.

The BRT route on this route will be something like 22km long, and the detour would be only between 1km and 2.5km. It would be the more reliable route, quicker in heavy traffic, and would make it easier to give city-bound flow strong priority.

The extra walking distance would be between 150m to 300m -- but it would be for good reason, in one direction only and for a higher-frequency and quality service which people are more inclined to walk further to or to a mix of walk/cycle to.

But no area between the Navan Road and the railway would be more than 1km from BRT or Luas (with a tiny added bit of permissibility which is needed to be pushed in any case). The area would be well served by public transport and very well served when Pelletstown station is built.

The current bus routing along the Navan Road is along the main arterial route which bisects the residential areas, which I think is the optimal routing.

Moving the bus corridor away from the main arterial corridor (Navan Road) (and further from half the population that use them) to a minor road (Blackhorse Avenue) further away that has housing only on one side (and using minor residential roads to access it in the process), isn't a very good idea in my opinion.

More to the point, I don't think that politically that is going to be a runner.

I'd also note that the buses and trains along that corridor also serve completely different routes.

I've said all along that there is a need for a mix of core QBC routes, local routes that serve the community, and orbital services. But moving the principal QBC routes from a main arterial corridor onto local roads that has a parkland on one side with no residential areas has to be one of the oddest ideas that I've read on these boards yet.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

The current bus routing along the Navan Road bisects the residential areas, which I think is a more optimal solution.

The buses and trains along that corridor also serve completely different routes.

Moving the bus corridor away from the main arterial corridor (Navan Road) (and further from half the population that use them) to a minor road (Blackhorse Avenue) further away that has housing only on one side (and using minor residential roads to access it in the process), isn't a very good idea in my opinion.

More to the point, I don't think that politically that is going to be a runner.

Coverage over ridership for mostly an extra walk of 150m or so walk for travel in just one direction? It's at most around 11% of the BRT full route and most people will be unaffected or hardly affected by the extra walk.

How can you justly that?

The up sides:

• Strong bus priority in both directions.
• Far more reliable westbound service.
• Traffic reduction on Blackhorse Ave.
• BRT closer to west Castleknock.*
• BRT closer to west Phoenix Park.*

* these might be just in terms of mindsets, but that matters.

lxflyer wrote: »

More to the point, I don't think that politically that is going to be a runner.

IF the BRT route is going to be half decent, things will have to be done which will be more politically difficult.

lucernarian

I note the drawings above don't show what happens to the trees on various parts of Navan Road. A small issue, one might think, but have a look at this example just up the road in Castleknock:

https://goo.gl/maps/Kux36nRkjpK2

The road is made one-lane-wide for the sake of a tree, I guess the beech tree that gives its name to the eponymous avenue.

There has been a furore in Dublin before over something as simple as cutting down trees for bus lanes. Perhaps attitudes have softened since 15 years or so ago, when this was talked about a lot in the media.