Trying to find Rice family burial ground called Ford

Rice mix

I am going to Ireland in June and would appreciate any help in finding my family's burial ground. The excerpt is from  a letter written in 1957 by Anne Ellen Coxen, sister of Thomas Frederick Rice (my great-grandfather). Please excuse the length--I wasn't sure which details would best help. Thanks to all in advance.

“I will try to describe the old burial ground, it is called Ford (?), and it is top of a small mountain. All the neighbors go to a funeral, certain ones are selected to go up and open a particular grave. They have to be in line, by descent or relatives. There are no paths on this rugged cemetery, one just steps on up and down over rises or boulders. But there are some flat places and these are spacious and five families of Rices have buried there.
Our grave is a large one and five families bury in our grave. I knew them all, half are cousins and distant cousins all around Bellurgan Point. But what amazed me on my first visit there, it was Uncle Peter’s funeral, it was so high up, no carts could come to the last few hundred feet. We had to leave the carts and horses and walk up. And when we reach the top, there are no real paths, we follow the footsteps of all who have gone before us.

And each family knows where their own plot is. On our grave there is old slate stone. The writing on it is nearly worn away, next to us +over there is a large family + one of their boys is Owen Rice, oldest son and a school master. I'm told we came from the same family tree, but so far back that it was lost. They didn't bury in our grave, but quite near, on the next level piece of ground. He told me the first name on the old slate slab was Owen Rice of Bellurgan  and a lot more detail.

pinkypinky

What county is this? Louth?

tabbey

North of Bellurgan lie the Cooley Mountains.

There are quite a few graveyards in this area, I have been in some of them, but the details in the letter do not seem familiar to me. I will look at some on the Ordnance Survey historical maps (osi.ie) and try to assist.

Wyldwood

There's a death notice in the Irish Independent dated May 28 1942 that states:

At Bellurgan Point, Dundalk, Owen Rice ex National Teacher; deeply regretted by his loving brothers, sisters, nephews and nieces. RIP. Funeral today(Saturday) from Bellurgan Church to Faughart Cemetery 3 o'clock.


Is that related?

tabbey

Wyldwood wrote: »

There's a death notice in the Irish Independent dated May 28 1942 that states:

At Bellurgan Point, Dundalk, Owen Rice ex National Teacher; deeply regretted by his loving brothers, sisters, nephews and nieces. RIP. Funeral today(Saturday) from Bellurgan Church to Faughart Cemetery 3 o'clock.


Is that related?

That definitely looks like it. It is about a mile north of junction 18 of the M1 / N1, Dublin - Belfast road.
What virtually proves it is that the 100 metre contour line surrounds the church area, indicating a hill.

Waitsian

Rice Mix I live in Dundalk and know the Cooley peninsula very well. You can PM me if you like and I'll give you as much assistance as I'm able, no problem.

Rice mix

Thanks mod9maple! Yes, It should be in county Louth, near Dundalk where the family lived.
Wyldwood and tabbey: I too thought my great-aunt might have meant Faughart, and checked their excellent website. They list the inscriptions on many graves, including a William Patrick Rice 1845-1907 and a Patrick Rice, 1829-1899. But the dates just don't match what I have for the Rice family. For example, the Peter Rice mentioned in the letter was born in 1845, not 1829. His father, William Patrick Rice , lived from 1805-1861, not 1845-1907. 
His wife was Sarah (Sally) Keenan Rice and she lived from 1810-1902, and is described as "a girl from around the mountain not too far from the coast" with "golden hair, dark blue eyes, and lovely red round checks."

KildareFan

Faughart and Ford sound alike, so I think the letter writer only heard the name and wrote it down as Ford - she put a question mark so she wasn't sure of the spelling. From the descriptions of the graveyard it sounds like Faughart is the right spot. It's up a hill, old graves etc. I wouldn't get hung up on dates on headstones - sometimes the headstone is erected many years after the death, so whoever put up the headstone probably got the dates wrong; it's also possible that an error in transcription occurred.

Interesting article here on Faughart hill & cemetery including maps and photos http://bit.ly/2oIsvXR

p15574

Impressive detective work!
There's a Tripadvisor page for the hill/graveyard too, with more photos

Waitsian

Rice mix wrote: »

Thanks mod9maple! Yes, It should be in county Louth, near Dundalk where the family lived.

PM sent; happy to help. When I'm home in a couple of weeks from abroad I'll cycle up and have a look around. From my place Faughart is about 20 mins by bike.

Waitsian

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gsr&GSiman=1&GScid=2551291&GSfn=&GSln=rice

Could be one of these. When I'm home I'll go up and have a scout around.

Waitsian

Rice mix wrote: »

I am going to Ireland in June and would appreciate any help in finding my family's burial ground. The excerpt is from  a letter written in 1957 by Anne Ellen Coxen, sister of Thomas Frederick Rice (my great-grandfather). Please excuse the length--I wasn't sure which details would best help. Thanks to all in advance.

“Our grave is a large one and five families bury in our grave. I knew them all, half are cousins and distant cousins all around Bellurgan Point.

And each family knows where their own plot is. On our grave there is old slate stone. The writing on it is nearly worn away, next to us +over there is a large family + one of their boys is Owen Rice, oldest son and a school master. I'm told we came from the same family tree, but so far back that it was lost. They didn't bury in our grave, but quite near, on the next level piece of ground. He told me the first name on the old slate slab was Owen Rice of Bellurgan and a lot more detail.

Do you happen to know any of these cousins' names? One headstone has both Rice and Feede* on it. Anyway there's great detail in that description vis-a-vis the location so if I find the teacher's grave the other won't be too far off.

*D-uh! It just struck me. That's a name alright but more likely that of a local mountain rather than a surname.

KildareFan

and here's a detailed report on the conservation of the graveyard with lots of nice photos http://bit.ly/2oQGiIM

PMBC

OP try Rootschat.com for Ireland, County Louth and you will get some other local historical, family and graveyard (possibly gravestone readings) information. Its an invaluable free resource

tabbey

Rice mix wrote: »

They list the inscriptions on many graves, including a William Patrick Rice 1845-1907 and a Patrick Rice, 1829-1899. But the dates just don't match what I have for the Rice family. For example, the Peter Rice mentioned in the letter was born in 1845, not 1829. His father, William Patrick Rice , lived from 1805-1861, not 1845-1907. 

Just because certain ancestors are not recorded on a list of gravestone inscriptions, does not necessarily mean that they are not buried in a particular graveyard.
Many people, indeed most during the 19th century,never got a headstone. Stones that were erected could have fractured, fallen on their faces, have become unreadable due to shallow inscription, or be so dirty that they can only be read in ideal conditions.
As has also been said, dates can be very wrong, even when monuments are erected soon after death, relatives may not know the age of the deceased, never mind when they are done a generation after the event.

Christian Corlett always recommended spring and autumn for reading inscriptions, so now is the best time and tomorrow is expected to be sunny. Hopefully we will get the opportunity.

Rice mix

tabbey wrote: »

Rice mix wrote: »

They list the inscriptions on many graves, including a William Patrick Rice 1845-1907 and a Patrick Rice, 1829-1899. But the dates just don't match what I have for the Rice family. For example, the Peter Rice mentioned in the letter was born in 1845, not 1829. His father, William Patrick Rice , lived from 1805-1861, not 1845-1907. 

Just because certain ancestors are not recorded on a list of gravestone inscriptions, does not necessarily mean that they are not buried in a particular graveyard.
Many people, indeed most during the 19th century,never got a headstone. Stones that were erected could have fractured, fallen on their faces, have become unreadable due to shallow inscription, or be so dirty that they can only be read in ideal conditions.
As has also been said, dates can be very wrong, even when monuments are erected soon after death, relatives may not know the age of the deceased, never mind when they are done a generation after the event.

Christian Corlett always recommended spring and autumn for reading inscriptions, so now is the best time and tomorrow is expected to be sunny. Hopefully we will get the opportunity.

While it saddens me to think of my family's burial grounds being in such a state, it would be wonderful to have the opportunity to rectify it somehow. Please let me know if I can provide any more information on my Rice family ancestors.

Rice mix

PMBC wrote: »

OP try Rootschat.com for Ireland, County Louth and you will get some other local historical, family and graveyard (possibly gravestone readings) information.  Its an invaluable free resource

Thanks for letting me know about this site. I posted the question about Ford burial grounds since I could not see any previous thread about it.

Hermy

You might find some interesting anecdotes among the musings of these local school children.

tabbey

I looked at Faughart graveyard today, some Rice headstones as follows;

Pray for the souls / of /MICHAEL RICE / Roskeagh / died 16 Dec. 1911 aged 84 years
His wife MARY / died 18 Oct 1918 aged 68
their daughter in law AGNES
Their children / JOHN, JOSEPH, MARY AGNES / WINNIE FRAZER
their daughter in law LENA RICE / died 3 May 1956
their sons / MICHAEL died 9 June 1972 / JOHN / died 16 April 1973

Erected by BRIDGET RICE / in loving memory of / her brother / JAMES RICE / of Ballymacallet / died Jan 22nd, 1892 / age 19

This stone erected by PATRICK / RICE of Bellwrgan (sic) in memory of / his loving Wife / CATHERINE RICE alias haughey
who departed this life / May the 8th 1805, Aged 68 Years
(this inscription is unusual for: 1.the spelling of Bellurgan, 2. Haughey is the spelling usually found in Tyrone, more commonly HOEY in Co Louth especially Dundalk. the inscriber also seems casual in upper or lower case letters).

The next stone is immediately beside the last, suggesting familial connection;

In loving memory of / of / PATRICK RICE (Wm) Bellurgan Pt. / who died 16 January 1967 / aged 62?

(Behind these two stones, are two or three RODDY headstones, this is interesting because when Irish people think of Rice, Dundalk, they think of Rice & Roddy, motor dealers, Dundalk)

There are also smaller inscriptions;

In memory of / the Rice family / Feede

In memory of / the RICE family / Faughiletra

I also saw a Rice grave in a smallgraveyard on the Dundalk to Greenore / Carlingford road, near Piedmont and Riverstown. This graveyard is also unlevel, with ups and downs in a small field.

Rice mix

tabbey wrote: »

I looked at Faughart graveyard today, some Rice headstones as follows;

Pray for the souls / of /MICHAEL RICE / Roskeagh / died 16 Dec. 1911 aged 84 years
His wife MARY / died 18 Oct 1918 aged 68
their daughter in law AGNES
Their children / JOHN, JOSEPH, MARY AGNES / WINNIE FRAZER
their daughter in law LENA RICE / died 3 May 1956
their sons / MICHAEL died 9 June 1972 / JOHN / died 16 April 1973

Erected by BRIDGET RICE / in loving memory of / her brother / JAMES RICE / of Ballymacallet / died Jan 22nd, 1892 / age 19

This stone erected by PATRICK / RICE of Bellwrgan (sic) in memory of / his loving Wife / CATHERINE RICE alias haughey
who departed this life / May the 8th 1805, Aged 68 Years
(this inscription is unusual for: 1.the spelling of Bellurgan, 2. Haughey is the spelling usually found in Tyrone, more commonly HOEY in Co Louth especially Dundalk. the inscriber also seems casual in upper or lower case letters).

The next stone is immediately beside the last, suggesting familial connection;

In loving memory of / of / PATRICK RICE (Wm) Bellurgan Pt. / who died 16 January 1967 / aged 62?

(Behind these two stones, are two or three RODDY headstones, this is interesting because when Irish people think of Rice, Dundalk, they think of Rice & Roddy, motor dealers, Dundalk)

There are also smaller inscriptions;

In memory of / the Rice family / Feede

In memory of / the RICE family / Faughiletra

I also saw a Rice grave in a smallgraveyard on the Dundalk to Greenore / Carlingford road, near Piedmont and Riverstown. This graveyard is also unlevel, with ups and downs in a small field.

Thank you for going out and actually walking through Faughart! Very funny about the juxtaposition of Rice and Roddy, wonder if that was because of the family connection or the fact that their names both begin with R .
If I follow your directions, I think the grave of Patrick Rice (Wm) is listed as #107 by the Faughart Society, with a birth year of 1845 and  date of passing as 1907, not 1967. 
BUT!!! The Rice grave you found in a small graveyard makes me wonder all the more if there are other such spots, ones where families buried their loved ones unofficially. 
So...Ford may be the name of the landowner, a road, or a natural occurring feature such as a ford over a stream.
The hunt continues...and thanks to all who have pondered or explored.

KildareFan

"BUT!!! The Rice grave you found in a small graveyard makes me wonder all the more if there are other such spots, ones where families buried their loved ones unofficially. "

I don't think this theory is a runner. There are rules and regulations about burial places, and given the public nature of funerals families wouldn't get away with unofficial burials, unless disposing of murdered bodies. In which case, they're unlikely to erect headstones over the spot.

tabbey

Rice mix wrote: »

If I follow your directions, I think the grave of Patrick Rice (Wm) is listed as #107 by the Faughart Society, with a birth year of 1845 and  date of passing as 1907, not 1967. 

I did wonder myself whether 1967 should have been 1907, not just because of your earlier post, but also because the stone looked older in style than a typical monument of 1967. Sometimes a small chip off the stone can alter one's perception of a letter or numeral The inscription looked to me more like 1967, but hopefully we might find a death notice in a newspaper, by 1967, a notice in at least one paper was the norm. If it was actually 1907, most people would have published a death notice, but not all.
I hope to look at papers in the next couple of days.
This headstone, a fairly large celtic cross, means somebody had money.

tabbey

KildareFan wrote: »

"BUT!!! The Rice grave you found in a small graveyard makes me wonder all the more if there are other such spots, ones where families buried their loved ones unofficially. "

I don't think this theory is a runner. There are rules and regulations about burial places, and given the public nature of funerals families wouldn't get away with unofficial burials, unless disposing of murdered bodies. In which case, they're unlikely to erect headstones over the spot.

When I refer to a small graveyard, I mean a legal burial place, such as around a ruin of a pre-reformation church. Many are out of use, others are closed to new graves, but may be used by families who already own graves.

Such graveyards are dotted all around the country. Kildare for example, has about 250 in their inventory of burial places, Louth being the smallest county, would have less, but still a large number.

The graveyard beside the Dundalk - Greenore road, may be in the townland of Mount Bagnall, but due to the osi.ie website being out for maintenance, I am unable to check the townland boundaries. Openstreetmap.org does not have a full townland coverage in that area yet,and google maps does not do townland boundaries, they cater for people who have never heard of townlands.

Anyhow this burial place, with remnant of a ruin,is perfectly legitimate.

Rice mix

tabbey wrote: »

KildareFan wrote: »

"BUT!!! The Rice grave you found in a small graveyard makes me wonder all the more if there are other such spots, ones where families buried their loved ones unofficially. "

I don't think this theory is a runner. There are rules and regulations about burial places, and given the public nature of funerals families wouldn't get away with unofficial burials, unless disposing of murdered bodies. In which case, they're unlikely to erect headstones over the spot.

When I refer to a small graveyard, I mean a legal burial place, such as around a ruin of a pre-reformation church. Many are out of use, others are closed to new graves, but may be used by families who already own graves.

Such graveyards are dotted all around the country. Kildare for example, has about 250 in their inventory of burial places, Louth being the smallest county, would have less, but still a large number.

The graveyard beside the Dundalk - Greenore road, may be in the townland of Mount Bagnall, but due to the osi.ie website being out for maintenance, I am unable to check the townland boundaries. Openstreetmap.org does not have a full townland coverage in that area yet,and google maps does not do townland boundaries, they cater for people who have never heard of townlands.

Anyhow this burial place, with remnant of a ruin,is perfectly legitimate.

In the United States, especially in rural areas, it is not unusual to find family burial plots on private land. From my relative's description, I thought that may have been a possibility as well in Ireland.

patsman07

Hi just came across this thread.

My G Grandfather Thomas Rice is buried in Faughart graveyard. His headstone is mentioned above as Rice family Faughilitra.

Any connection between our two Rice families is further back than I can manage to find. I live about 3 miles from Faughart graveyard and roughly the same from Bellurgan point. If I can be of any help please PM me.

As an interesting side note the Roddy's mentioned are indeed the Roddy's that operate the garage and repair shop in Bellurgan. Legend has is that they allowed their plot to be used to to bury King Edward 'the' Bruce who died at Faughart and is buried in the graveyard. So our Rice ancestors are buried beside royalty!

Wyldwood

Death record from Irishgenealogy.ie for Patrick Rice died 16/1/1907, Bellurgan, married, 61 years old, Farmer, probably cancer of stomach - no medical attendant, Peter Rice, son, present at death.

No death notice shows up on a search of Irishnewsarchives.

tabbey

Wyldwood wrote: »

Death record from Irishgenealogy.ie for Patrick Rice died 16/1/1907, Bellurgan, married, 61 years old, Farmer, probably cancer of stomach - no medical attendant, Peter Rice, son, present at death.

No death notice shows up on a search of Irishnewsarchives.

I checked the papers today, and as Wyldwood has posted, 1907 is the correct year, not 1967.

The death notice in the Dundalk Democrat 19 January 1907 confirms that Patrick Rice died 16 January 1907 at his residence, Bellurgan,and that he was interred in Faughart on Friday.
It is followed by a long piece of prose, which gives very little information, for example it says that he was devoted to his profession, but not what profession he practised.
It tells us that he had a large family, and the chief mourners were his five sons, including two National teachers, (primary teachers) a clerical student (student priest) and a son who returned from the US to be with his father in his last moment.

tabbey

Rice mix wrote: »

I am going to Ireland in June and would appreciate any help in finding my family's burial ground.

“I will try to describe the old burial ground, it is called Ford (?), and it is top of a small mountain.
There are no paths on this rugged cemetery, one just steps on up and down over rises or boulders. But there are some flat places and these are spacious and five families of Rices have buried there.

all around Bellurgan Point
.
Uncle Peter’s funeral,

it was so high up, no carts could come to the last few hundred feet. We had to leave the carts and horses and walk up. And when we reach the top, there are no real paths, we follow the footsteps of all who have gone before us.

Owen Rice, oldest son and a school master.

Returning to the original post, and reviewing the evidence;

The topographical description fits Faughart,
Peter reported Patrick's death to the registrar,
Bellurgan Point is on the headstone and the letter of 1957,
Owen Rice,schoolmaster, - Patrick Rice had two sons who were teachers.

I think it is beyond all reasonable doubt that Faughart is the graveyard you seek.