Prey drive, large dog...

coddlesangers

Hi there, 
We have a Beauceron, he's roughly 50kgs at 21 months old, so not a small fella.  We had him neutered a few months ago.  He's been to obedience classes, walks really well on leash, has a developing recall which is already not bad.  However, he seems to have a very very strong prey drive - if he sees a cat (other than ours, which he lives in peace and harmony with) out on the road, or another small mammal, he basically turns into beelzebubs hell hound and takes off to say hello to whatever it may be.  He managed to pull me off my feet yesterday to chase a hedgehog, resulting in me being used as an 80kg air brake for about 10 feet....which wasn't pleasant.  I probably should have let go of the leash in that particular instance, but he took me by surprise, and we were pointing downhill.  Anyway, as to the question - anyone have any advice or guidance as to what to do?  We have a command "leave it" which he knows and usually obeys, he gets a treat when he successfully "leaves it" whatever it may be...however, when i dont see the object of his desire and he takes off like a train and is locked into the target.....how to train out this drive?  Is it even possible?

Nody

What harness are you using currently?

coddlesangers

None at the moment on the advice of his obedience trainer.  We have a choke collar on him and have been trained in its use, so theoretically while he was having a run at the hedgehog, he had 80kgs of me and the choke collar to contend with, he wasn't that bothered..

Flibble

Choke collars are outdated & ineffective tools that any reputable dog trainer would not advise the use of.

Check out halti-collars or front attaching harnesses, they have a MUCH better track record & get the point through to your dog much quicker!

DBB

What a lovely, unusual breed op!
They are a herding breed, and have a bit of a rep for being very determined, so chasing things is something that comes naturally to them.
Now, you have discovered one of the reasons why choke chains are not advised by trainers who are qualified in dog training. Sorry... I know that sounds snotty, but I would worry about the other stuff a trainer is teaching me when they're using choke chains, because there is an inherent misunderstanding of learning theory amongst those who advocate their use, which is all rolled up in a tendency to teach other stuff that's horribly outdated. You're going to do long-term damage to your dog's neck/throat area if he's dragging 80kg from a chain around his neck too. The basic, underlying tenet of good, evidence-led dog training is "do no harm". Use of the choke chain immediately falls outside this tenet, because in order for them to do their job, you have to teach the dog to fear the consequences of pulling. That's not a good way to teach human or animal, because the fallout from it can be pretty serious, and often insidious.
I'd strongly suggest that you go for a front-connection harness (there are several brands, I like the Premier Easy Walk, the Freedom Harness, and the Softtouch Sensible Harness). They give you better control over the dog's shoulders. If necessary, you can double-up with a Dogmatic or Gentle Leader headcollar, which should only be brought into action if he absolutely bulldozes away from you, which should be better controlled by the front connection harness in any case.
Predatory behaviour is not quite the same as a dog who wants to go check something out. You say he wants to go say hello.. Are you sure? Is there any suggestion that he might pick the animal up in his mouth, or attempt to kill it? If there's any doubt, you'll also need to teach him to wear a basket-style muzzle (not the fabric ones or any style that keeps the mouth shut. Dog must be able to pant freely, and to drink). They can still do harm whilst muzzled, but at least they can't pick the small animal up to shake and kill.
So... That's your physical aids to help you. But you've got to train him too, via very targeted focus-on-you training. You will not, ever, teach a dog to stop chasing things, and if this is true Predatory chasing, you will not, ever, teach a dog to not want to chase smaller animals.. It is innate, instinctive behaviour which simply cannot be "unlearned".
But you can refocus the object that the dog chases, so that he can still work off the innate chasing behaviour, but the target is an appropriate, inanimate object. This will mean teaching him to chase and fetch a ball (or other toy), whilst simultaneously for the first few weeks, taking him away from places where he's likely to see things to chase. It means a lot of work in your back garden, teaching him to fetch, and placing a verbal cue onto the action so that you can get his attention very quickly when, in the future, he starts eyeballing another animal.
I feel that the process is a bit long to go into here, so I'm going to suggest you get yourself this very cheap, short book by the very, very wonderful ex-police dog trainer, now certified clinical behaviourist David Ryan...
http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/stop-how-to-control-predatory-chasing-in-dogs/
Bearing in mind his background and training, David would also tell you to ditch the choke chain, and to be a little sceptical about other info your trainer will have given you.
Just to give you an example, I have a working German Shepherd, who's not much lighter than your lad. She loves to chase a ball. She didn't know what a ball was when I first got her at 9 months... I just introduced it to her as a fun toy. So I started to precede my throwing the ball with the statement "Ball!" (you can choose whatever word you like), and after a few days, when I gave that cue word, she stopped everything she was doing, snapped her head to look at me, and came straight to me.. What a simple way to teach a refocus! After a few weeks, this response becomes an absolute way of life for the dog. It's dynamite when done well, and that book I've linked to will show you how to do it well.
Good luck op... Again, I don't want to diss your trainer, but...ick... Choke chains are in the Dark Ages of dog training. There are far better ways that are also backed up by the research behind how animals learn. If you need any more info, just shout!

coddlesangers

Flibble wrote: »

Choke collars are outdated & ineffective tools that any reputable dog trainer would not advise the use of.

Check out halti-collars or front attaching harnesses, they have a MUCH better track record & get the point through to your dog much quicker!

Wasn't really the question, but since you asked.  We went to the choke collar after using both front attached and rear attaching harnesses.  Hence the dog now walking as described, really well loose leash walk, to heel.  Obedience class with our "non reputable" trainer have us with a dog that performs well and is obedient, with the exception of his prey drive, which is what i asked about :-) .  Is there any other suggestion other than changing his collar back to a harness?  Strikes me as a pyschological issue, as if he can take off with me attached, via a choke collar, he can take off with me attached via a harness as well!

dubjay

coddlesangers wrote: »

Flibble wrote: »

Choke collars are outdated & ineffective tools that any reputable dog trainer would not advise the use of.

Check out halti-collars or front attaching harnesses, they have a MUCH better track record & get the point through to your dog much quicker!

Wasn't really the question, but since you asked.  We went to the choke collar after using both front attached and rear attaching harnesses.  Hence the dog now walking as described, really well loose leash walk, to heel.  Obedience class with our "non reputable" trainer have us with a dog that performs well and is obedient, with the exception of his prey drive, which is what i asked about :-) .  Is there any other suggestion other than changing his collar back to a harness?  Strikes me as a pyschological issue, as if he can take off with me attached, via a choke collar, he can take off with me attached via a harness as well!

Not with a new Halti head collar. i have a rottie/lab 30kg not as big as your lad but all muscle.hHalti head collar lets you control them but the head just like a horse.even if he runs or sees another animal you will have plenty of strenght to restrain him with one hand and they dont do damage

DBB

coddlesangers wrote: »

 We went to the choke collar after using both front attached and rear attaching harnesses.  Hence the dog now walking as described, really well loose leash walk, to heel.

You will teach any dog to walk on a loose leash using any gear. If a dog is a puller, there's only so much any gear can do. You've got to actually teach the concept of walking beside you, without pulling.
As I said above, the problem with using the choke chain is that you've got to use the dog's anticipation of discomfort for them to work. This is not a good approach because it can cause other problems.
On the other hand, the evidence-led approach is to teach the dog to want to be beside you, to enjoy being beside you (rather than wanting to be beside you to avoid the unpleasant consequence of not being beside you). Gear like the front connection harness feeds into this approach, because they give a bit more control, but without causing a nasty consequence for the dog when he pulls.
I'm curious as to what brand of front connection harness you tried? Some are better than others. I find the Halti front connection (red and black in colour) to be next to useless on many dogs.

Edited to add... I also don't much like the Halti headcollar... It has quite an uncomfortable action for the dog, particularly if it's not perfectly fitted. The Gentle Leader, but particularly the Dogmatic has a different modus operandi which, to my mind, works a lot better and doesn't twist the skin on the muzzle, or ride up into the eyes if not perfectly fitted.

dubjay

DBB wrote: »

coddlesangers wrote: »

 We went to the choke collar after using both front attached and rear attaching harnesses.  Hence the dog now walking as described, really well loose leash walk, to heel.

You will teach any dog to walk on a loose leash using any gear. If a dog is a puller, there's only so much any gear can do. You've got to actually teach the concept of walking beside you, without pulling.
As I said above, the problem with using the choke chain is that you've got to use the dog's anticipation of discomfort for them to work. This is not a good approach because it can cause other problems.
On the other hand, the evidence-led approach is to teach the dog to want to be beside you, to enjoy being beside you (rather than wanting to be beside you to avoid the unpleasant consequence of not being beside you). Gear like the front connection harness feeds into this approach, because they give a bit more control, but without causing a nasty consequence for the dog when he pulls.
I'm curious as to what brand of front connection harness you tried? Some are better than others. I find the Halti front connection (red and black in colour) to be next to useless on many dogs.

Edited to add... I also don't much like the Halti headcollar... It has quite an uncomfortable action for the dog, particularly if it's not perfectly fitted. The Gentle Leader, but particularly the Dogmatic has a different modus operandi which, to my mind, works a lot better and doesn't twist the skin on the muzzle, or ride up into the eyes if not perfectly fitted.

have you tried new halti opti fit. i agree the old style ones were terrible to fit but the new opti fit with slides work really well and are comfortable for the dog to wear.i have to use halti as i have 2 dogs and you need two hands for gentle leader and most front harness

coddlesangers

We tried the Halti front connecting harness as it happens. It didnt work particularly well for us.  We have a halti headcollar as well, but I haven't really thought of changing the connection between us and the dog, as his walking is so improved and he generally now does not pull - with the exception of when small furry creatures are spotted.  That seems to disengage his brain completely, and he reverts to OMG A THING! CHASE CHASE CHASE!  I'll look into the dogmatic and gentle leader, nothing ventured, nothing gained!

DBB

dubjay wrote: »

have you tried new halti opti fit. i agree the old style ones were terrible to fit but the new opti fit with slides work really well and are comfortable for the dog to wear.i have to use halti as i have 2 dogs and you need two hands for gentle leader and most front harness

No, I didn't realise there was an improved version! Thanks for the tip!

Ms Doubtfire1

Exercise exercise exercise and more exercise. You really need to tire him out - if possible find a place where there are no other dogs (beach very early in the morning) and let him run.If there are seagulls, he'll be so tired after an hour you might actually have a chance in walking him without his brain going into overdrive when he see's something.Gorgeous dog.

DBB

If you're going to do any refocus training with him, you cannot let him off lead to chase any animals, anywhere. It will undermine all your refocus work.
When you're trying to minimise one behaviour to replace it with another, it is critical that you don't allow him to rehearse the unwanted behaviour.
If you're not planning on carrying out any refocus training and are just going to rely on controlling equipment, then if you let him rip chasing any other animals, don't expect to have any change to the problem you're already having.

coddlesangers

Tks!  He gets roughly 1 hour or so minimum per day (plus 8-10km twice a week), plus a lot more at the weekend - but he is a high energy dog, very hard to actually tire him out.  With summer coming it should be easier to get him out, there's a forest nearby where I let him off leash when the chance arises as its pretty deserted.....but I could do a lot more of that than I've been doing.  I also have some weights in a doggy backpack that i use when socializing around town, to help his brain work, but dont use when out for a "regular" walk....maybe start adding them to the daily routine as well..I have no intention of EVER letting him chase anything on purpose, that would be a disaster.

coddlesangers

DBB wrote: »

If you're not planning on carrying out any refocus training and are just going to rely on controlling equipment

I at no stage have expressed an interest in controlling equipment, other than answering the question as to what I have currently!  I'd really like guidance on what type of refocus training could work with this specific issue.

DBB

coddlesangers wrote: »

I at no stage have expressed an interest in controlling equipment, other than answering the question as to what I have currently!  I'd really like guidance on what type of refocus training could work with this specific issue.

In fairness, you had said you were going to look into using the Dogmatic and other gear mentioned in this thread, but had not up to this point expressed anything about trying the refocus training I've already posted about, with a link to a short book by one of the world's leading experts on how to deal with chase behaviour.
So, forgive me for including the possibility in my above post that you weren't going to try training, when all you've said you would try so far is trying different controlling equipment!

Edited to add... Okay... Now I see you hadn't seen my initial post. That puts things in better context now, so ignore the above

coddlesangers

DBB wrote: »

What a lovely, unusual breed op!
They are a herding breed, and have a bit of a rep for being very determined, so chasing things is something that comes naturally to them.
I feel that the process is a bit long to go into here, so I'm going to suggest you get yourself this very cheap, short book by the very, very wonderful ex-police dog trainer, now certified clinical behaviourist David Ryan...
http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/stop-how-to-control-predatory-chasing-in-dogs/
Bearing in mind his background and training, David would also tell you to ditch the choke chain, and to be a little sceptical about other info your trainer will have given you.
Just to give you an example, I have a working German Shepherd, who's not much lighter than your lad. She loves to chase a ball. She didn't know what a ball was when I first got her at 9 months... I just introduced it to her as a fun toy. So I started to precede my throwing the ball with the statement "Ball!" (you can choose whatever word you like), and after a few days, when I gave that cue word, she stopped everything she was doing, snapped her head to look at me, and came straight to me.. What a simple way to teach a refocus! After a few weeks, this response becomes an absolute way of life for the dog. It's dynamite when done well, and that book I've linked to will show you how to do it well.
Good luck op... Again, I don't want to diss your trainer, but...ick... Choke chains are in the Dark Ages of dog training. There are far better ways that are also backed up by the research behind how animals learn. If you need any more info, just shout!

Sorry - hadn't actually seen the post above, thanks so much for the lovely considered response.  Looking into it now!

Ms Doubtfire1

DBB wrote: »

If you're going to do any refocus training with him, you cannot let him off lead to chase any animals, anywhere. It will undermine all your refocus work.
When you're trying to minimise one behaviour to replace it with another, it is critical that you don't allow him to rehearse the unwanted behaviour.
If you're not planning on carrying out any refocus training and are just going to rely on controlling equipment, then if you let him rip chasing any other animals, don't expect to have any change to the problem you're already having.

Actually we disagree here. Most dogs will run after seagulls knowing full well they'll never catch them.That doesn't necessarily mean they are going to chase any other animals.My lurcher - who is a rescue with a VERY high preydrive - will race after seagulls and crows but has learned to leave every other animal alone.

DBB

If it worked for you, great! But generally not a good idea to include chasing birds as a treatment to stop chasing small animals imo.
I know several dogs who can and will catch seagulls and crows.

Knine

You got to be joking. Mine regularly catch birds including seagulls & especially wood pigeons.

I'm just back from the park & my Border Bitch caught a Sparrow. I feel absolutely terrible. :-(

DBB

In any case, it's the chase behaviour the op needs to control. Whether the dog catches, or thinks he can catch the smaller animal, is pretty much immaterial, because chasing is inherently hugely rewarding, particularly for a herding breed. Which brings me back to the point that any chance of a dog getting to rehearse an unwanted behaviour needs to be minimised or eliminated, if efforts are being made to redirect the behaviour in another direction.

Choc Chip

DBB recommended David Ryan's book to me OP and its really great. He elaborates on what she's mentioned above re. obedience and redirecting and while we're a long way from perfect yet, it is working. The hardest thing I've found is to get my dog interested in fetching toys.

I really would start working on it now though while the problem is still new and fairly limited - ours will chase anything size-wise from a mouse to a deer so she's not exactly discriminatory!

AryaStark

coddlesangers wrote: »

None at the moment on the advice of his obedience trainer.  We have a choke collar on him and have been trained in its use, so theoretically while he was having a run at the hedgehog, he had 80kgs of me and the choke collar to contend with, he wasn't that bothered..

You should not be using a choke collar. A strong dog will not see it as a deterrent and will just choke. There are a few different options available for harnesses that you could look into. I would worry about a trainer that recommended a choke collar. I have a big strong dog and a no pull harness. If I try to hold her on the lead while it is attached to her collar she could pull me around but on the harness she can't pull at all and walks nice and steady.

dubjay

AryaStark wrote: »

You should not be using a choke collar. A strong dog will not see it as a deterrent and will just choke. There are a few different options available for harnesses that you could look into. I would worry about a trainer that recommended a choke collar. I have a big strong dog and a no pull harness. If I try to hold her on the lead while it is attached to her collar she could pull me around but on the harness she can't pull at all and walks nice and steady.

Don't mean to be going off topic but do you need two hands for the nopull harness I'm asking because I have two dogs and one is a strong puller where I use a halti opti fit which works but if I can get a harness or attachment for two dogs well I will give it a go.

AryaStark

dubjay wrote: »

Don't mean to be going off topic but do you need two hands for the nopull harness I'm asking because I have two dogs and one is a strong puller where I use a halti opti fit which works but if I can get a harness or attachment for two dogs well I will give it a go.

No I only use one hand. I am not sure the make of mine as I got it from the trainer when I brought her to a one on one training class. My main issue was the walking and he put the harness on her and within 10 minutes she had it and was walking without pulling! Never had a problem since!

tk123

dubjay wrote: »

Don't mean to be going off topic but do you need two hands for the nopull harness I'm asking because I have two dogs and one is a strong puller where I use a halti opti fit which works but if I can get a harness or attachment for two dogs well I will give it a go.

If you get a Freedom harness you get a lead with it that has a floating handle and you only need one hand.. But I only use one hand for any of the other brands of front connection harness I use anyways even if I have it connected on both front and back ring because I have 2 dogs too


This the the lead you get with it - https://freedomnopullharness.com/4-Configuration-Freedom-Training-Leash-ALL-Colors-displayed.html

dubjay

Thank you both for he reply i remember looking them up and the only information i got was from a american site but i was told one of the dog training centers i think in swords offers them for sale and fits then on to the dog. i emailed a while ago and they had,nt much stock so i must call again and inquire. can these be bought in Ireland or do they have to be ordered online. once again thank you for the reply genuinely interested in getting one of these as a lot of people recommend them

dubjay

called positive dog training they have some on order should be here in two to three weeks.might look at getting a few private training sessions also as the new lad is getting a bit rough at playtime so going to get advice and training on how i should be handling the two dogs

tk123

I think wonderpaws in Bray stocks them too?

coddlesangers

Follow up several months later - I started working on counter conditioning the dog shortly after reading a few more books on the subject, I couldn't get David Ryans methods to work that well for me as the time between him seeing prey and him reacting was just too quick - however I did work a LOT on his recall and his fetch and used "classic" counter conditioning with tasty treats always somewhere on my person for walks.  We did also change his lead from a correction collar to a harness (perfect fit), with two points of control, one on the chest, one on the back,  So far - we're very much better, while it's still a work in progress, he's improved hugely over the time.  I'm far more aware than before of the signals of his intent to go full on hunter killer, and he's much faster to turn around and look when i ask him to.  The harness has meant that i am far less likely to go bouncing down a forest path, getting my face helpfully grated...Thanks to everyone who chimed in, there was some great advice given.  Oddly in the last week or so he's regressed in getting in and out of the car, so .....two steps forward, one step back :'(