Puppy problems

Michelleb355

I have a 9 month old Jack russel who has slept in my bed since the day I got him 5 months ago. In the beginning he was fine. He picked his own spot and slept there for the night. Recently he has started to come over to me and lie on my arm or up against me and then growl at me until I move away (he sometimes snaps too). He then happily goes to sleep in the spot I was in. Also if I hit off him by accident while he is asleep he growls and snaps at me. Is there anything I can do apart from putting him in a different room. any advice/experience greatly appreciated.

DBB

Down off the bed op! Terriers are demons for this behaviour, and it's fairly typical for it to develop when the dog reaches maturity, as your lad has. The way I view it is that the dog can share the bed for sure, but on condition he doesn't act like an idiot when he's there.
So, I'd set him up with his own bed on the floor. If he jumps up on your bed, he needs to go back into his bed again straight away, and I would keep a lead attached to him so that you can move him from your bed without having to grab him or manhandle him... which itself can provoke a bite. Always take the lead off if you're not there to supervise.
Another alternative is to set him up in a crate, so he simply can't jump up on your bed.
With time, he may be able to get back on your bed by invitation only.
If he growls, snaps, or bites, it's straight off your bed again. If he jumps up on your bed without invitation, it's straight off your bed again.
That's the deal. Behave, or no bed

peasant

Everything that DBB said and...

...don't be afraid to growl back at the little sh!t

Seriously...Terriers bank on intimidation as a tactic to getting whatever it is they want ...and they're good at it.

Nip it in the bud and intimidate right back at them.
I don't mean get violent or shout at them (they can shout louder than you all day long ).
Just put on your sternest face and say something like "don't even think about it" or similar in the deepest and most intimidating voice and posture you can muster without getting the giggles. You have to say it like you mean it. Keep the rumble going (doesn't matter what you say as long as you can do it convincingly) until you get through to him.

Once it registers with him that he's not the only one with a strong will and he looks at you like "what do you want?"...tell him in a normal voice what you want him to do ..off the bed ...whatever.

Rinse and repeat until such time as a quick "ah ah" is enough to get his attention and you can dispense with the rest of the farce.

Makes living with a Terrier that bit easier ...:D

nosilver

Yep - cruel to be kind is best way. We have Maltese who has an "issue" if the wife cuddles up. A few stern "no"s and "stop" and place her back to end of bed sorted it within a week or so.

They're stubborn buggers!

DBB

For the record, I would not be recommending growling back at the dog. For quite a few reasons.

peasant

DBB wrote: »

For the record, I would not be recommending growling back at the dog. For quite a few reasons.

Why not? Dogs do it to each other after all...especially so when showing a pup/youngster what's on and what's not.

Worked with our four anyway.

La.de.da

peasant wrote: »

Why not? Dogs do it to each other after all...especially so when showing a pup/youngster what's on and what's not.

Worked with our four anyway.

Works with my youngest jrt she's as stubborn as a mule. You could talk to her in any tone of voice and she'd still ignore you. A little growl and she'll listen.

Jrts are great fun and loyal but hard feicin work.

Op I recommend what's been said already. Nip this issue in the butt now. Get the little guy neutered asap too. May help calm the hormones down.

Love to see a pic ☺

DBB

peasant wrote: »

Why not? Dogs do it to each other after all...especially so when showing a pup/youngster what's on and what's not.

Worked with our four anyway.

I don't feel it's appropriate to physically confront aggressive dogs, and I don't think it's appropriate to assume that our dogs understand our (often horribly misplaced) attempts to "talk their language"... It's all a bit too Milan-esque for my liking.
I've also worked with many, many dogs who, when their owners confront them, the dog does not back down. If a terrier is going to retaliate to a "correction", the last thing I'd want is to have my face anywhere near his.
I don't advise confronting misbehaving dogs, rather I advise setting things up so that if the owner does have to take action, they can do it without having to enter into negotiations, and they can do it safely.

Knine

Terriers by their very nature have to think for themselves especially the go to ground types as underground they have to fend for themselves.

Don't ever growl at one. Ever or you risk getting bitten! They don't back down too easy or they would be a useless terrier!

peasant

DBB wrote: »

... rather I advise setting things up so that if the owner does have to take action, they can do it without having to enter into negotiations, and they can do it safely.

Ok..I get that and I agree ..have a setup with clear (and if needs be physical) boundaries to reduce temptation to misbehave.

But every now and then you get a stroppy "teenager" whose sole object is to question those boundaries...what do you do then?

The dog has moved itself outside the boundary and is clearly misbehaving ...you have a battle of wills on your hands.
Negotiating will fail for sure...bribing with food might work momentarily (until the little bugger has figured out that all he needs to do is misbehave to get a treat:D) so your left with either manhandling the dog (which I would not recommend) or make your extreme displeasure crystal clear to him.

Those are the situations where I "rumble" at my dogs. I know that I can not growl like a dog (so do my dogs)...but they get the picture all the same and usually pretty quickly.
And when all is over and the dog behaves we can all be friends again and the dog will even get praised for doing the right thing...eventually:D

peasant

Knine wrote: »

Terriers by their very nature have to think for themselves especially the go to ground types as underground they have to fend for themselves.

Don't ever growl at one. Ever or you risk getting bitten! They don't back down too easy or they would be a useless terrier!

No offence ...but my bed/couch/dinner is not a fox or badger den. When it comes to control of those things it is me who does the thinking and not the terrier.

He / she will have to learn the difference.

And I'd rather rumble at the dog once too often as a warning than having my bed invaded/my dinner stolen because I'm too afraid to confront a dog that has been emboldened ...or worse ...have a real (potentially bloody) fight on my hands because the bugger won't back down because he's never been warned before.

DBB

peasant wrote: »

Ok..I get that and I agree ..have a setup with clear (and if needs be physical) boundaries to reduce temptation to misbehave.

But every now and then you get a stroppy "teenager" whose sole object is to question those boundaries...what do you do then?

The dog has moved itself outside the boundary and is clearly misbehaving ...you have a battle of wills on your hands

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm only talking about reducing the temptation to misbehave? My response to the op included what to do when the dog has already become aggressive. When the op moves in the bed, the dog growls and snaps at her/him.
The direct, safest, and indeed most clearly understood way to deal with this is for the dog to be taken down off the bed with immediate effect, as soon as he growls. That's the punishment. The safest way to move an aggressive dog in this context is to take the lead that I've advised to have already attached, and to lead the dog down off the bed.
Dog growls/snaps, dog loses bed, owner doesn't get bitten in the process of depriving the dog of the bed. In future, the simplest way to then control this behaviour is to either keep him off the bed, or have T+Cs attached, as I've already outlined. No need for growling back at your dog, no need for confrontation (which increases anxiety and aggression), no need for any of the macho Milan-esque stuff... It's just basic use of learning theory... Remove the reinforcement, the dog will eventually stop. Or, manage the dog so he's not put in a situation that's known to trigger aggression. But adding confrontation to the mix is risky. With a terrier, very risky. Adding confrontation is not a strategy that's recommended by qualified behaviourists because of the potential fallout (increased anxiety and/or aggression), and because of the safety risks.

This type of behaviour, growling at the owner in bed, is a form of resource guarding. It is very closely related to a dog, for example, growling when a person approaches as they eat. Would you tell an owner to growl at their dog now?

Having a lead attached prevents having to go down the road of having a "battle of wills". If you're getting into a battle of wills with a dog, you're doing something wrong!

DBB

peasant wrote: »

No offence ...but my bed/couch/dinner is not a fox or badger den. When it comes to control of those things it is me who does the thinking and not the terrier.

He / she will have to learn the difference.

And I'd rather rumble at the dog once too often as a warning than having my bed invaded/my dinner stolen because I'm too afraid to confront a dog that has been emboldened ...or worse ...have a real (potentially bloody) fight on my hands because the bugger won't back down because he's never been warned before.

Goodness peasant... That's a very outdated attitude. You'll get people in trouble with this sort of advice.
I'll leave you to it.

crustybla

I'm kinda relieved to know I'm not the only one with a dog like this. I understand him a little better now but he's still never getting on my bed, and trust me he tries!

peasant

DBB wrote: »

Goodness peasant... That's a very outdated attitude. You'll get people in trouble with this sort of advice.
I'll leave you to it.

Jeez ..what corner are you trying to paint me into now?
I don't hit my dogs, I don't shout at them, I don't manhandle them, they are not afraid of me ...they just trust and respect me.

And I can get them out of my bed without a lead attached

peasant

Once again, for clarification:

I do not believe that the OP is dealing with an aggressive dog. In my opinion we are talking about a juvenile here who is trying out the limits for the first time (like pretty much all juvenile dogs do at some point) This juvenile dog so happens to be a terrier, but I don't think that is of any particular significance except perhaps that terriers manage to sound and appear much more intimidating than their size initially suggests.

The dog is showing unwanted behaviour (growling, snapping) and that needs to be corrected. In order to correct it (i.e give the dog instructions on what it is supposed to be doing instead of the unwanted behaviour) said behaviour needs to be interrupted first.
There are many possible ways to interrupt ongoing behaviour, personally I prefer those that can be used without any props (that I may not have with me when it matters)
The main thing is to get the dogs attention...and for that you can use your voice (hey!), your hands (for a sharp clap), your feet (stomping)...anything that creates enough of a distraction to jolt the dog out of what is doing at the moment so that it is ready to listen to your instructions.

In case of a stroppy teenager questioning my authority by growling at me...personally I prefer to "growl" right back. Has worked for me with four dogs that all went through strops as they grew up. Gets their attention pretty quickly and opens them up for giving alternative directions.
As this has worked for me I passed it on as advice...people are free to try it themselves or not (if they prefer not to).

I would not presume to advise people how to treat properly aggressive dogs. I have no experience with aggressive dogs. We have four dogs (two sheep-shunters, one terrier and one that is one half garbage-disposal one half bulldozer)...neither of them is aggressive, not to us, not to each other, not to strange dogs (unless provoked)...never to people.

Whether this is because or despite of me growling at all of them during their stroppy teenage phase ...that's for you to decide


As for the dog in question...whether you growl at it or not, one thing is for sure...while it behaves in this manner it should not be allowed on the bed.
The bed is invitation and good behaviour only.


Anecdote on the side:

The bulldozer had a similar phase, trying to claim the bed for himself. While he did not growl or snap at me (he didn't need to), he used his not inconsiderable bulk (ca. 50 kg at the time) to play immovable object. No coaxing, fingerpointing or "angry voice" could move him so I had to resort to tilt him out of the bed...bedding, mattress and all.

It worked...the look on his face was priceless

tk123

My two cents is that he's resource guarding/over threshold and what works for me is to not react or confront the dog and remain as calm and nonplussed as possible. Having a lead on is great advice imo to move him off without and fuss when it happens.

peasant

tk123 wrote: »

My two cents is that he's resource guarding/over threshold and what works for me is to not react or confront the dog and remain as calm and nonplussed as possible. Having a lead on is great advice imo to move him off without and fuss when it happens.

Unfortunately neither (while good advice) works for us.
In a multi-dog household one stroppy dog can throw the whole menagerie out of balance. So speed is somewhat of the essence when dealing with the issue ...ignoring just takes too long.

As for tying a lead to one or more dogs in this scenario..just not practicable.


Worth a try though where there is just one dog that you can focus on.

Knine

peasant wrote: »

Unfortunately neither (while good advice) works for us.
In a multi-dog household one stroppy dog can throw the whole menagerie out of balance. So speed is somewhat of the essence when dealing with the issue ...ignoring just takes too long.

As for tying a lead to one or more dogs in this scenario..just not practicable.


Worth a try though where there is just one dog that you can focus on.

I have 4 terriers! Ignoring works very well. Growling at one stroppy dog here could result in all out warfare & I have actually put a lead on them. Believe me when I say I certainly don't want any fights in my house as Borders although are not scrappy row starting terriers, they are serious fighters should they decide to defend themselves or decide to help me out if I growled at one!

njs030

peasant wrote: »

Unfortunately neither (while good advice) works for us.
In a multi-dog household one stroppy dog can throw the whole menagerie out of balance. So speed is somewhat of the essence when dealing with the issue ...ignoring just takes too long.

As for tying a lead to one or more dogs in this scenario..just not practicable.


Worth a try though where there is just one dog that you can focus on.

While your advice is based on your own 4 dogs and has worked for you - and that's great - perhaps someone who has worked with hundreds of dogs like dbb and has probably forgotten more than the rest of us will know should be listened to.

It's a public forum, your opinion is as valid as any other, however I would also be of the opinion that teaching any dog that aggressive behavior (like growling) is how to deal with problems isn't the best move.

Teaching discipline and rewarding good behavior (like off the bed for bad behavior, allowed on when he's good) makes a lot more sense than confrontation.

However the op can decide what they want to do themselves.

I also have 4 dogs BTW.

peasant

notjustsweet wrote: »

... however I would also be of the opinion that teaching any dog that aggressive behavior (like growling) is how to deal with problems isn't the best move.

Teaching discipline and rewarding good behavior (like off the bed for bad behavior, allowed on when he's good) makes a lot more sense than confrontation.

Somehow I don't seem to be able to make myself clear :rolleyes:

I have no intention to "teach" my dogs aggressive behaviour, quite the contrary. Nor do I want to base my relationship with the dogs on confrontation..that would mean that I would have to "fight" or "struggle" with them (and win) all the time ...that is not the case.

As I've stated above, our dogs are not aggressive. Not at all. They are very relaxed, happy and enjoy a lot of freedoms.

They don't growl at me now, or snap, or whatever (and neither do I )


However...they all went through a phase in early adolescence where they became mini-revolutionaries and tried to rebel against the rules with a bit of pseudo-aggressive posturing. (In my experience every dog does that at that point and this seems to be where the OP's dog is at right now)

All I did by growling right back at them a few times was make it clear to them at that point that I'm not to be intimidated into changing the rules and we are good friends ever since.

There was was no real aggression involved on either side. One party tried it on..the other didn't let it happen and that's that.

I don't think that I growled at any one dog more than three or four times during their stroppy phase ...that's it...and once the revolution was over we could work on training and establishing routines again.

VonVix

peasant wrote: »

Somehow I don't seem to be able to make myself clear :rolleyes:

I have no intention to "teach" my dogs aggressive behaviour, quite the contrary. Nor do I want to base my relationship with the dogs on confrontation..that would mean that I would have to "fight" or "struggle" with them (and win) all the time ...that is not the case.

As I've stated above, our dogs are not aggressive. Not at all. They are very relaxed, happy and enjoy a lot of freedoms.

They don't growl at me now, or snap, or whatever (and neither do I )


However...they all went through a phase in early adolescence where they became mini-revolutionaries and tried to rebel against the rules with a bit of pseudo-aggressive posturing. (In my experience every dog does that at that point and this seems to be where the OP's dog is at right now)

All I did by growling right back at them a few times was make it clear to them at that point that I'm not to be intimidated into changing the rules and we are good friends ever since.

There was was no real aggression involved on either side. One party tried it on..the other didn't let it happen and that's that.

I don't think that I growled at any one dog more than three or four times during their stroppy phase ...that's it...and once the revolution was over we could work on training and establishing routines again.

Maybe your methods didn't work after all and that they just simply grew up?

See, the way I look at it is, what you're suggesting isn't really a training method. What DBB has suggested is... and in my mind is actually the most useful (not forgetting also the safest) tactic for the OP to employ.

peasant

VonVix wrote: »

See, the way I look at it is, what you're suggesting isn't really a training method.

Really people ...since when is reading such a problem ?

Nowhere have I said or propagated that this is a training method.(read my very first post again)

It is one way of many to interrupt unwanted behaviour ...to get the dog's attention back so that training may continue.

That's all.



Off topic:

Cesar Millan really has a lot to answer for.
There is a tendency in this forum that is beginning to annoy me.

I only mention that I growl at my dogs or someone who is new to the subject expresses themselves in a manner that is not 100% in line with the current sensitive vocabulary re dog training and immediately the heckles go up.

A cohort of activistas come out of the woodwork and always assuming the worst possible motives, the post gets scoured for key phrases which then get pounced upon, dissected and rebutted with current terminology in attempt to discredit anything that only vaguely smells of Millan et al.

All the while loosing touch with the original post, misinterpreting statements towards the worst possible meaning and making it abundantly clear that aggression/force/negative enforcement is not a way to train dogs ...even though that was never mentioned anywhere.

Lighten up folks ...not everyone who express themselves in a somewhat robust, joking or unknowing manner is a Millan diciple.

Give them a chance, read what they are actually saying (and not what you think they are saying) before you pounce on them as a pack.

I'm 100% with you when it comes to modern dog training methods, debunking the pack theory, unravelling the alpha roll and whatever else needs to be said and done...but for the forum's sake ...ease up a little, it's getting tiresome.

Bells21

I think many of the contributors on this forum want to ensure that people are getting the correct and most appropriate information. The wrong information in the wrong hands could potentially lead to a disastrous outcome for an animal and their family.

tk123

peasant wrote: »

Really people ...since when is reading such a problem ?

Nowhere have I said or propagated that this is a training method.(read my very first post again)

It is one way of many to interrupt unwanted behaviour ...to get the dog's attention back so that training may continue.

That's all.



Off topic:

Cesar Millan really has a lot to answer for.
There is a tendency in this forum that is beginning to annoy me.

I only mention that I growl at my dogs or someone who is new to the subject expresses themselves in a manner that is not 100% in line with the current sensitive vocabulary re dog training and immediately the heckles go up.

A cohort of activistas come out of the woodwork and always assuming the worst possible motives, the post gets scoured for key phrases which then get pounced upon, dissected and rebutted with current terminology in attempt to discredit anything that only vaguely smells of Millan et al.

All the while loosing touch with the original post, misinterpreting statements towards the worst possible meaning and making it abundantly clear that aggression/force/negative enforcement is not a way to train dogs ...even though that was never mentioned anywhere.

Lighten up folks ...not everyone who express themselves in a somewhat robust, joking or unknowing manner is a Millan diciple.

Give them a chance, read what they are actually saying (and not what you think they are saying) before you pounce on them as a pack.

I'm 100% with you when it comes to modern dog training methods, debunking the pack theory, unravelling the alpha roll and whatever else needs to be said and done...but for the forum's sake ...ease up a little, it's getting tiresome.

I'll try it now so...

GRRRRRRRRRRRR or in English "I know you are but what am I"