Amateur photographer and part time photography

Ave Sodalis

Hey all,

A website recently posted that they were looking for photographers in Ireland to represent them. It's for events and companies around Ireland under a certain category. I applied and they were impressed with my photos and asked if I would like to join them. I asked for more information. Basically, I'd be paid $50 per shoot and that would produce 8-15 photos. Any entry expenses would be covered by me, as well as travel expenses. Now obviously, the pay wouldn't even cover petrol if it's any way of a trek at all.

However, the owner said that $50 per shoot is good money for an amateur photographer. He said he was a semi-pro himself. It works out at about €46. Is he right?

DaireQuinlan

Seems to me that if you're going someplace ANYWAY and looking for a bit of pocket money as a bonus it makes sense. Otherwise, no.

pigdestroyer

I'd ask for an example of work they've previously done and covered - just do some basic due diligence yourself to ensure it's legit. If it's an up and running operation they'll have no problem providing examples. 
Also, a minor point, be aware of your own circumstances - it might be pocket money to you - but its income to our friends at the revenue so a tax will technically be due - even though you say amateur just remember to look at it from the perspective of a business

ScumLord

sup_dude wrote: »

Hey all,

A website recently posted that they were looking for photographers in Ireland to represent them. It's for events and companies around Ireland under a certain category. I applied and they were impressed with my photos and asked if I would like to join them. I asked for more information. Basically, I'd be paid $50 per shoot and that would produce 8-15 photos. Any entry expenses would be covered by me, as well as travel expenses. Now obviously, the pay wouldn't even cover petrol if it's any way of a trek at all.

However, the owner said that $50 per shoot is good money for an amateur photographer. He said he was a semi-pro himself. It works out at about €46. Is he right?

At first I thought you were saying €50 for each shot. Which seemed reasonable.

€50 for a days work simply isn't enough and a shoot is basically a days work if you have to spend any time traveling. €450 per shoot seems to be more standard in the industry for people that sort of know what they're doing.

Ave Sodalis

It's a website similar to AirBnB by the way, but for equestrian businesses.

DaireQuinlan wrote:

Seems to me that if you're going someplace ANYWAY and looking for a bit of pocket money as a bonus it makes sense. Otherwise, no.

That would be ideal but I would be expected to actually go to these places, and take photos.

pigdestroyer wrote:

I'd ask for an example of work they've previously done and covered - just do some basic due diligence yourself to ensure it's legit. If it's an up and running operation they'll have no problem providing examples. Also, a minor point, be aware of your own circumstances - it might be pocket money to you - but its income to our friends at the revenue so a tax will technically be due - even though you say amateur just remember to look at it from the perspective of a business

They have a fully functional website. They're only relatively new but they have a relatively large Facebook following (50,000 followers). Yeah I didn't think Revenue wouldn't ignore it.

ScumLord wrote:

€50 for a days work simply isn't enough and a shoot is basically a days work if you have to spend any time traveling. €450 per shoot seems to be more standard in the industry for people that sort of know what they're doing.

Fifty dollars so less in euro.
I've never done anything specifically for people before but I have done bits with my own time. It was from various events that I sent the sample photos from so he knows I'm not entirely clueless around a camera. I wouldn't expect even that much. I'd be more than happy with travel, entry if needed, and a little bit extra for the time taking, sorting and editing photos.

He offered to pay for any businesses recruited to the site, with more for bigger places but you can only recruit them once.

sup_dude

sup_dude wrote: »

It's a website similar to AirBnB by the way, but for equestrian businesses.


That would be ideal but I would be expected to actually go to these places, and take photos.


They have a fully functional website. They're only relatively new but they have a relatively large Facebook following (50,000 followers). Yeah I didn't think Revenue wouldn't ignore it.



Fifty dollars so less in euro.
I've never done anything specifically for people before but I have done bits with my own time. It was from various events that I sent the sample photos from so he knows I'm not entirely clueless around a camera. I wouldn't expect even that much. I'd be more than happy with travel, entry if needed, and a little bit extra for the time taking, sorting and editing photos.

He offered to pay for any businesses recruited to the site, with more for bigger places but you can only recruit them once.

That sounds like a right crock. You'd be lucky to clear €4 an hour all told. Let him off. That's not a business at all.

DaireQuinlan

sup_dude wrote: »

That would be ideal but I would be expected to actually go to these places, and take photos.

Well, forget that so :-D He's chancing his arm, gunning for the crowd-sourced, lowest common denominator uber/airbnb model, but with drastically lower barriers to entry and an enthusiastic base of suckers to draw from.

TheQuietFella

sup_dude wrote: »

However, the owner said that $50 per shoot is good money for an amateur photographer. He said he was a semi-pro himself. It works out at about €46. Is he right?

I wouldn't cross the road for €50!

Ave Sodalis

Oh I have no intention of going with it. I have no intention of being out of pocket whilst working to make someone else a profit. Especially when bloggers get paid the same money for blogs which can be thrown out in an hour or two in the comfort of their own home. I was mostly wondering if what he said was correct about $50 being good money for an amateur. Although, if he's going to pay me to take photos for him, I automatically become a professional by definition surely.

dory

sup_dude wrote: »

Oh I have no intention of going with it. I have no intention of being out of pocket whilst working to make someone else a profit. Especially when bloggers get paid the same money for blogs which can be thrown out in an hour or two in the comfort of their own home. I was mostly wondering if what he said was correct about $50 being good money for an amateur. Although, if he's going to pay me to take photos for him, I automatically become a professional by definition surely.

$50 is not good for even a beginner if they have to pay travel and entry. Totally chancing his arm!

Ave Sodalis

After me declining, he is now asking how much I would be looking for, only I don't have a clue because I haven't charged for this kind of thing before. All being genuine, I understand he is a new business and doesn't have huge funding yet.

On the other hand, he did try to convince me that $50 is in line with the usual business rates and good money, that he knows this as he himself is a semi-pro, and that the value of the industry is being diminished as anyone with a phone can call themselves a photographer. Whilst the offer itself may have been a genuine error, the rest seems to be someone trying to take advantage when they thought "amateur"means beginner and therefore ignorant and without resources.
He has also told me that he has travelled from Dublin to Galway before and didnt find it bad (all motorway) but he guesses what is considered a daily commute in California is tedious for people here.

With that in mind, I'm very tempted to tell him where to stick it regardless of what I get paid.
He also has over 50,000 likes on Facebook which is impressive for a new business, so telling him where to go could come back to bite me.

DaireQuinlan

sup_dude wrote: »

After me declining, he is now asking how much I would be looking for, only I don't have a clue because I haven't charged for this kind of thing before. All being genuine, I understand he is a new business and doesn't have huge funding yet.

That's his problem, not your problem. Don't -make- it your problem

Whilst the offer itself may have been a genuine error, the rest seems to be someone trying to take advantage when they thought "amateur"means beginner and therefore ignorant and without resources.
...
With that in mind, I'm very tempted to tell him where to stick it regardless of what I get paid.

He's fishing for volume, and evidently having trouble finding it if he's following up with people who've declined his offer already. It's almost certainly not a 'genuine error', he's looking to establish a floor on what he can pay people and still have them work for him. Just disengage. There's really no need to tell him 'where to stick it' or anything else. Tell him you're not interested and ignore him if he tries to continue the discussion.

magicbastarder

sup_dude wrote: »

After me declining, he is now asking how much I would be looking for

tell him €25 - per hour - not including expenses. that might make him go away.
asking someone to cover an event but not even provide entry to the event is an insult.

sup_dude wrote: »

He has also told me that he has travelled from Dublin to Galway before and didnt find it bad (all motorway) but he guesses what is considered a daily commute in California is tedious for people here.

he's obviously also ignorant of the difference in petrol prices.

CelticRambler

If these are events that you would like to go to, and take pictures of, then you could suggest that he pays your travel and entry expenses as a minimum (explaining Irish costs to him ), and you'll accept token amount per photo for the rights to display the photos on his website while retaining licensing rights yourself for all other uses. I believe expense payments like that would not be considered "revenue" and if he's in the business of selling on photos to third parties, you're leaving the door open for him to come back to you with a better per-picture-per-sale fee.

ScumLord

sup_dude wrote: »

On the other hand, he did try to convince me that $50 is in line with the usual business rates and good money,

Even if it was €50 it wouldn't be enough, it's just not going to cover costs and leave much over. Think of servicemen, qualified, trained people who fix things like washing machines. They ask for at least €130 and they're work can usually be done within a few minutes of arriving. The act of actually traveling somewhere you don't know to do work for someone should cost at least €50 just to do the traveling, any work should be added on top of that travel cost. You won't really get any kind professional that will want to travel anywhere for less than €100. It just doesn't make sense to do it for less.

He also has over 50,000 likes on Facebook which is impressive for a new business, so telling him where to go could come back to bite me.

It's not really, if a new business suddenly has 50,000 likes then they're more than likely bought and paid for. If you go back and have another look you might find he got 50,000 then people stopped liking his page all of a sudden. All you should be looking at is the content on the page and whether there are interactions with real people.

Ave Sodalis

Having received a very rude and passive aggressive reply, I've decided to cut all contact with the man and warn others of the same. I can only hope anyone else applying realises he is a crook.

CabanSail

He obviously has a very low threshold for quality and does not mind exploiting people for his own ends. I thenk you have made the right call.

Ave Sodalis

CabanSail wrote: »

He obviously has a very low threshold for quality and does not mind exploiting people for his own ends. I thenk you have made the right call.

Absolutely. Given he insulted my photography, myself, my intelligence and the people of Ireland (though I think this may have been intended as a further dig at me) in his emails, I think I very much dodged a bullet.

I'm admittedly very tempted to let the companies and businesses he works with know how poorly he handles disappointment and how he may result in driving potential customers away, especially since he represents those businesses through the website. However, I am going to sleep on it as I fear this is only an attempt to justify a petty revenge tactic :pac: He wants me to promote his business to others, so I do the opposite. I'd also love to track down the people on Instagram he's stealing photos from currently to put on his Facebook page, and tell them... but I fear it's also an act of revenge.

sup_dude

sup_dude wrote: »

Absolutely. Given he insulted my photography, myself, my intelligence and the people of Ireland (though I think this may have been intended as a further dig at me) in his emails, I think I very much dodged a bullet.

I'm admittedly very tempted to let the companies and businesses he works with know how poorly he handles disappointment and how he may result in driving potential customers away, especially since he represents those businesses through the website. However, I am going to sleep on it as I fear this is only an attempt to justify a petty revenge tactic :pac: He wants me to promote his business to others, so I do the opposite. I'd also love to track down the people on Instagram he's stealing photos from currently to put on his Facebook page, and tell them... but I fear it's also an act of revenge.

Life is too short. Just forget about him and get on with yours.

Ave Sodalis

JayZeus wrote:

Life is too short. Just forget about him and get on with yours.

Once he stops sending me insulting emails, I will most definitely do so

CabanSail

Notifying others of copyright infringements is not revenge, as long as you just let them know without any baggage.

Ave Sodalis

CabanSail wrote:

Notifying others of copyright infringements is not revenge, as long as you just let them know without any baggage.

I wouldn't even know where to start looking though. There's absolutely no mention of who took the photos. I just know he is taking them because he told me he finds them in an email.

Ah, I would imagine it would be with baggage anyway. I think I will just sleep on it and provided I don't wake up to even more pleasant emails, I'll have a clearer head in the morning. At the moment it's still fresh, even if it is almost as amusing as it is offensive (he's after trying to insult a photo by sneering at my reflection being in it, but that's the point of the photo). Therefore I'll just be taking a few steps back first anyway.


Thanks all for the replies, by the way!

CabanSail

You can use image search engines to locate other identical or similar shots.

dinneenp

on a slightly related note Airbnb offer €50/$50 (can't remember which) for photography jobs. You list yourself as a photographer & your area; people can contact you to photograph their accommodation.

Turns out not to be worth it at all- time to travel to location (you get small milage), take photos, post-process, submit to Airbnb. And pay tax on the €50/$50....

DaireQuinlan

dinneenp wrote: »

on a slightly related note Airbnb offer €50/$50 (can't remember which) for photography jobs. You list yourself as a photographer & your area; people can contact you to photograph their accommodation.
.

That's likely where he picked the figure from :cool: