good article on the present state of athletica

Rockyman7

https://buzz.ie/long-read-irish-athletics-is-becoming-an-invisible-sport/

TFBubendorfer

Ciarán Ó Lionáird isn't holding back:

“Irish athletes love to complain. I never get a negative tweet from Americans, but always from Irish people,” he said. “They’re so ****ing negative, always complaining.

Yes, we get that a lot on boards as well :rolleyes:

Chivito550

COL on one hand moaning about Irish athletes being negative, yet then goes on to criticise Thomas Barr for being too positive. You just couldn't make this sh1t up!

RayCun

I think consumer culture has changed a lot in the last 50 years, and spectator sport is one of the elements of that culture. In publishing there's "the death of the mid-list", there are similar things in TV, music, whatever.

50 years ago there was a distinct Irish audience and a distinct Irish supply of (insert cultural commodity here). TV came from RTE. Books were distributed by Easons. Food came from local shops and supermarkets, with local supply chains. If you wanted to watch some sport, you found out what sport was on in your area and you went to watch that.

Now, there is more supply, and more immediate supply, of everything. A book is published in California, I hear about it in US blogs, I can buy from Amazon immediately. Music spreads through youtube and facebook and instagram, or whatever the kids are using these days - you're not relying on Dave Fanning playing something, or whatever is in your local Golden Discs. And if you want to watch sport, you turn on the tv or your computer, and you can watch whatever sport you want, whenever you want it.

This leads to a big division between 'winners' and 'losers'. There's much less of a difference between the bestseller lists in Ireland, the UK, and the US, because the same books (films, TV shows, music) is available everywhere. There's less room for local appeal (or local captive audience, another way of putting it). Same with sport. Soccer has made it big, and rugby fills the pubs, and the remaining audience is smaller.

Djoucer

Chivito550 wrote: »

COL on one hand moaning about Irish athletes being negative, yet then goes on to criticise Thomas Barr for being too positive. You just couldn't make this sh1t up!

That's a harsh reading of his comments. His point was that Tom was delighted to be 4th rather than pissed to be missing for missing 3rd.

COL then goes on to say perhaps that was his own downfall, not being happy with his top 10 finish, resulting in him pushing too hard.

I don't think COL was moaning either. He was suggesting the tools and facilities are there if athletes want them. A track and a hard work ethic.

COL is probably a Roy Keane type personality. He'll split opinion.

Great article.

Chivito550

Djoucer wrote: »

That's a harsh reading of his comments. His point was that Tom was delighted to be 4th rather than pissed to be missing for missing 3rd.

COL then goes on to say perhaps that was his own downfall, not being happy with his top 10 finish, resulting in him pushing too hard.

I don't think COL was moaning either. He was suggesting the tools and facilities are there if athletes want them. A track and a hard work ethic.

COL is probably a Roy Keane type personality. He'll split opinion.

Great article.

Bringing Thomas Barr into it was ridiculous though. Runs sub 48, to go 42nd fastest in history (the highest any Irish athlete is on an all time list in a championship distance on the track, including Sonia) and come 4th in the Olympic Games, the greatest sprint performance by an Irish athlete in history, all off a year of dreadful injuries and zero expectation. The best Irish sporting performance in 2016 bar none. No doubt he was a bit frustrated to miss bronze, and he said it himself, but why shouldn't he be absolutely delighted on the whole.

It's just a very poor example to use to get his point across.

hot buttered scones

RayCun wrote: »

I think consumer culture has changed a lot in the last 50 years, and spectator sport is one of the elements of that culture. In publishing there's "the death of the mid-list", there are similar things in TV, music, whatever.

50 years ago there was a distinct Irish audience and a distinct Irish supply of (insert cultural commodity here). TV came from RTE. Books were distributed by Easons. Food came from local shops and supermarkets, with local supply chains. If you wanted to watch some sport, you found out what sport was on in your area and you went to watch that.

Now, there is more supply, and more immediate supply, of everything. A book is published in California, I hear about it in US blogs, I can buy from Amazon immediately. Music spreads through youtube and facebook and instagram, or whatever the kids are using these days - you're not relying on Dave Fanning playing something, or whatever is in your local Golden Discs. And if you want to watch sport, you turn on the tv or your computer, and you can watch whatever sport you want, whenever you want it.

This leads to a big division between 'winners' and 'losers'. There's much less of a difference between the bestseller lists in Ireland, the UK, and the US, because the same books (films, TV shows, music) is available everywhere. There's less room for local appeal (or local captive audience, another way of putting it). Same with sport. Soccer has made it big, and rugby fills the pubs, and the remaining audience is smaller.

In terms of broadcast media I suppose it's a case of whatever sells the most advertising space gets priority, which in turn is as a result of whatever gets the most viewing figures. The question is what can be done to done things around? Our public service broadcaster isn't even showing the World Championships - and even if it did how many would watch? If the event was given the same hype as the Olympics then maybe you'd see a lot more people tuning in. And surely there's space in the schedule for a weekly roundup magazine type programme, or even a highlights programme during the big championships. People will watch whats put in front of them, but probably won't go searching for it - but perhaps I thinking in terms of "old fashioned" media. Maybe we need a few Irish Athletes to become Instagram or YouTube stars? ;-)

The first solution that pops into my head is get 'em young - a proper schools programme - you have your rugby schools and GAA schools but I can't think of a school famed for its prowess in athletics (perhaps thats just my ignorance showing). Also when my kids were in primary they very often came home with leaflets for FAI summer soccer schools and GAA Cúl camps and the like, but never anything about athletics. And the funny thing is that any trip to a school sports day will see kids eager to be the fastest and delighted to win a race, and I remember there being fierce excitement when it came to time to pick the kids the represent the primary school in the City sports. But this was once year and then it all just peters out. I've seen soccer and GAA clubs canvas schools but I don't remember any athletics clubs coming in. And no, I'm not a member of club yet and I wasn't even running back then anyway. And I do recognise that clubs are volunteer driven and have limited resources for this kind of thing, so what I;m saying is the AAI should be doing more here. If I'm completely wrong here fair enough - this is all just based on my own experience as I perceive it.

Perhaps some of this ties in with the thread about this place being ghost town. You would think that with the size of a mass participation event like e.g. DCM that there would be a massive audience for the consumption of athletics based programming and the a consequent increase in the amount of talent - but if this is not the case then surely it is the case that just because you run doesn't mean your interested in athletics (if you know what I mean???).

RayCun

hot buttered scones wrote: »

People will watch whats put in front of them, but probably won't go searching for it - but perhaps I thinking in terms of "old fashioned" media.

I think it is. Everyone used to watch the Late, Late Show in the old days, because it was that or not much else. There is no built-in audience anymore.

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Also when my kids were in primary they very often came home with leaflets for FAI summer soccer schools and GAA Cúl camps and the like, but never anything about athletics.

GAA can pay people to put on these camps because they get TV money.

hot buttered scones

RayCun wrote: »

GAA can pay people to put on these camps because they get TV money.

I totally get that. Its a vicious circle really - can't afford to do the things to increase to popularity of the sport which would possibly result in more TV money which would lead to the ability to afford to do these things and so on.

Tombo2001

I think referring to the world cross country championship is a bit disingenuous.

There was only one European team in it.

Its not an Irish issue.

Also, regarding the Abbottstwon event not drawing a crowd...

minority sport, people have never gone to an indoor meet before.

I was at the Irish Open in Badminton back in October. Biggest ever badminton tournament here, hosted in new national badminton arena Abbotstown, international field, Scott Evans our Olympic QuarterFinalist has made it to the Final of the open.

50 people there to watch.

Similar, the O'Donovan brothers are entering a world championships this weekend; barely a footnote in the Irish times sports pages.

Minority sports need to work much much harder to get their slice of the sportsfan pie.

IvoryTower

Athletics Ireland have summer camps for any club that wants one by the way, a few years at it now, growing every year I believe.

Colonialboy

I read the article, let me get this straight ..
Athlete (COL) moans about other athletes saying they need to make things happen for themselves.
But said athlete (COL) has no record of doing anything for other athletes. 

Athlete (COL) moans that he could have been a contender but failed because he wanted it more than other Irish athletes do. 
no wonder Irish athletics is in the state its in with this sort of tripe.
If hes from Macroom he would be better off showing his face around the place in kids athletics, be a bit more like Rob Heffernan who is constantly engaging with youth athletics in this area, and a bit less like COL. 
besides Ireland doesnt have a new great indoor areana, Dublin does, this Dublin bias in all things is partly the cause of many issues in Irish society.

Chivito550

Colonialboy wrote: »

I read the article, let me get this straight ..
Athlete (COL) moans about other athletes saying they need to make things happen for themselves.
But said athlete (COL) has no record of doing anything for other athletes. 

Athlete (COL) moans that he could have been a contender but failed because he wanted it more than other Irish athletes do. 
no wonder Irish athletics is in the state its in with this sort of tripe.
If hes from Macroom he would be better off showing his face around the place in kids athletics, be a bit more like Rob Heffernan who is constantly engaging with youth athletics in this area, and a bit less like COL. 
besides Ireland doesnt have a new great indoor areana, Dublin does, this Dublin bias in all things is partly the cause of many issues in Irish society.

Ageeed with you right until the mad last point which is pure nonsense. If anything there's not enough Dublin bias given the population of the city relative to the rest of Ireland. Virtually no investment in public transport infrastructure to bring us up to the level of other European cities of 2 million people, while any oul off beaten town in Ireland gets a juicy bye-pass. It's the fact TDs from outside Dublin have a say in how Dublin is run is the reason why our capital, and consequently our country, is a mess in so many ways.

Anyway. Off topic rant to an off topic point. I agree with the rest of your post.

Tombo2001

Colonialboy wrote: »

I read the article, let me get this straight ..
Athlete (COL) moans about other athletes saying they need to make things happen for themselves.
But said athlete (COL) has no record of doing anything for other athletes.

Athlete (COL) moans that he could have been a contender but failed because he wanted it more than other Irish athletes do.
no wonder Irish athletics is in the state its in with this sort of tripe.
If hes from Macroom he would be better off showing his face around the place in kids athletics, be a bit more like Rob Heffernan who is constantly engaging with youth athletics in this area, and a bit less like COL.
besides Ireland doesnt have a new great indoor areana, Dublin does, this Dublin bias in all things is partly the cause of many issues in Irish society.

I would dispute your latter comment.

Dublin City has three outdoor running tracks across the entire city. That's hardly an abundance of resources. Its certainly not, as a percentage of all running tracks in the country, its fair share.

Yes, the national sports centre is in the capital city which accounts for circa 1/4 of the population. You think it shouldn't be?

You tell me why small towns around the country have running tracks, while big areas of Dublin have none.

Chivito550

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I would dispute your latter comment.

Dublin City has three outdoor running tracks across the entire city. That's hardly an abundance of resources. Its certainly not, as a percentage of all running tracks in the country, its fair share.

Yes, the national sports centre is in the capital city which accounts for circa 1/4 of the population. You think it shouldn't be?

You tell me why small towns around the country have running tracks, while big areas of Dublin have none.

+1

Dublin Metropolitan Area = 1.9 million
Number of 400m all weather tracks = 5

Santry, Tallaght, Irishtown, Leixlip and Greystones. I'm not counting ALSAA as it is an absolute embarrassment.

That's one track for every 380,000 people. Compare that to the ratio in other counties.

I was in Cologne in December and there were 3 tracks within a half a kilometre of each other, served by a highly frequent, reliable, comfortable and fast Stadtbahn (underground tram).

Dublin bias indeed!!!

TFBubendorfer

Chivito550 wrote: »

+1

Dublin Metropolitan Area = 1.9 million
Number of 400m all weather tracks = 5

Santry, Tallaght, Irishtown, Leixlip and Greystones. I'm not counting ALSAA as it is an absolute embarrassment.

That's one track for every 633,000 people. Compare that to the ratio in other counties.

I was in Cologne in December and there were 3 tracks within a half a kilometre of each other, served by a highly frequent, reliable, comfortable and fast Stadtbahn (underground tram).

Dublin bias indeed!!!

Your basic maths skills need improving: 1.9m / 5 = 380k!

As for bypasses, at least you got the M50 and 2 Luas lines built in the last few years. Where I live they re-surfaced the road twice in 13 years and that's all the infrastructure enhancements I can think of. As for running tracks, if you don't count ALSAA then I don't count Castleisland, which would leave exactly 0 tracks in the entire bloody county!

No need blasting each other, though. Infrastructure in the entire country, be it public infrastructure or athletic facilities are a ****ing joke.

COL would blast me for all that negativity, though :rolleyes:

IvoryTower

Would getting facilities for your local town not be a case of a group of people, maybe clubs combining etc doing everything they can to get them, raising money, looking for funding, hounding td's etc. I doubt the thought to put a track anywhere happens otherwise

Chivito550

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Your basic maths skills need improving: 1.9m / 5 = 380k!

As for bypasses, at least you got the M50 and 2 Luas lines built in the last few years. Where I live they re-surfaced the road twice in 13 years and that's all the infrastructure enhancements I can think of. As for running tracks, if you don't count ALSAA then I don't count Castleisland, which would leave exactly 0 tracks in the entire bloody county!

No need blasting each other, though. Infrastructure in the entire country, be it public infrastructure or athletic facilities are a ****ing joke.

COL would blast me for all that negativity, though :rolleyes:

Haha whoops. Had the number 3 still in my head from the previous posters post despite adding in Greystones and Leixlip myself. Doesn't change the overall point.

Chivito550

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Your basic maths skills need improving: 1.9m / 5 = 380k!

As for bypasses, at least you got the M50 and 2 Luas lines built in the last few years. Where I live they re-surfaced the road twice in 13 years and that's all the infrastructure enhancements I can think of. As for running tracks, if you don't count ALSAA then I don't count Castleisland, which would leave exactly 0 tracks in the entire bloody county!

No need blasting each other, though. Infrastructure in the entire country, be it public infrastructure or athletic facilities are a ****ing joke.

COL would blast me for all that negativity, though :rolleyes:

Well ALSAA is a private facility so it probably shouldn't count anyway.

2 LUAS lines which haven't linked up for the first 13 years of existence. (No points for building the green line as they closed down the harcourt street line years back and this is just a replacement in many ways). No Underground, over a century to open up a tiny tunnel in Phoenix park to passenger services. All trains going through Connolly causing daily delays. Politicians who get chauffeur driven to work making decisions on public transport in this city. Could go on and on. Dublin has 3rd World transport infrastructure. Anytime things get proposed you get those from outside Dublin shouting it down with the usual "Dublin gets everything". That's why nothing ever gets done here. We should have a link to the airport by now. Sad thing here is that in the eyes of the"Talk to Joe" folk, if Dublin gets an Underground then Templemore and Ennis must get one too. That's the attitude here, and that's why we are light years behind cities of similar population on the continent (Oslo, Copenhagen, Nuremberg, Amsterdam etc etc).

I agree though, it's a joke everywhere, not just Dublin.

Colonialboy

More confirmation of the mindset that has athletics ireland in the mess its in . 
People and athletes caught up so much in their petty squabbles and mindset they cant see the big picture or even have any vision. 
Parish pump politics for Dublin. Im not even going to bother getting into a discussion with them.

back on topic , my kids goto school near Macroom, anytime COL wants to come in and inspire them with his European bronze I will ask the principal. Or perhaps he is too busy in Niketown and writing articles moaning about TBarr.

RayCun

Colonialboy wrote: »

back on topic , my kids goto school near Macroom, anytime COL wants to come in and inspire them with his European bronze I will ask the principal. Or perhaps he is too busy in Niketown and writing articles moaning about TBarr.

Have you ever invited him to speak at your kids' school, or are you expecting him to read your post and send you a PM?

El Caballo

Chivito550 wrote: »

+1

Dublin Metropolitan Area = 1.9 million
Number of 400m all weather tracks = 5

Santry, Tallaght, Irishtown, Leixlip and Greystones. I'm not counting ALSAA as it is an absolute embarrassment.

That's one track for every 380,000 people. Compare that to the ratio in other counties.!

Not saying 5 is enough but in Dublin, you don't have to travel 40 miles to get to the nearest track. The majority of tracks in Munster are college tracks as well. Any tracks that were built in Small towns were generally done so through years upon years of fundraising by local athletic clubs. I know the track in Castleisland was built through one of their members going to pretty much every race in Kerry and Limerick for the bones of 3 years fundraising for it.

Using huge population density numbers skews the data in the countryside. If that was used, you might only have one track in Cork. Other areas might only have 1 track in 60 sq miles. The fact is in Dublin City, you're never too far away from one, other counties have none at all.

COL does have involvement with youth athletics as well to the other poster. He coaches a kids group in Portland. Asking a bit much for him to do it in Cork tbh when he lives in a different Country. And tbf to him, unlike a lot of big name Irish athletes in the past, he does support athletics in Ireland. You'll often see him running National XC or running national track.As for what he said on Barr, different personalities.

El Caballo

Colonialboy wrote: »

More confirmation of the mindset that has athletics ireland in the mess its in . 
People and athletes caught up so much in their petty squabbles and mindset they cant see the big picture or even have any vision. 
Parish pump politics for Dublin. Im not even going to bother getting into a discussion with them.

back on topic , my kids goto school near Macroom, anytime COL wants to come in and inspire them with his European bronze I will ask the principal. Or perhaps he is too busy in Niketown and writing articles moaning about TBarr.

Why don't you take them down to the Mardyke for Leevale sessions, he's being known to show face and talk to the kids group every so often.

TFBubendorfer

IvoryTower wrote: »

Would getting facilities for your local town not be a case of a group of people, maybe clubs combining etc doing everything they can to get them, raising money, looking for funding, hounding td's etc. I doubt the thought to put a track anywhere happens otherwise

Actually, there is an attempt to do exactly that going on in Killarney, though they have limited their ambitions to a 200m track. They have been raising funds for over a year and they're getting there but that's purely down to the drive of a handful of people who are getting f all support from officials of any kind.

There should be all kinds of sporting facilities put into all kinds of places. That's how you get kids (and adults) into exercising. Ireland has the worst obesity crisis of all of Europe coming up and that shameful lack of sporting facilities is a major contributing factor.

Chivito550

El Caballo wrote: »

Not saying 5 is enough but in Dublin, you don't have to travel 40 miles to get to the nearest track. The majority of tracks in Munster are college tracks as well. Any tracks that were built in Small towns were generally done so through years upon years of fundraising by local athletic clubs. I know the track in Castleisland was built through one of their members going to pretty much every race in Kerry and Limerick for the bones of 3 years fundraising for it.

Using huge population density numbers skews the data in the countryside. If that was used, you might only have one track in Cork. Other areas might only have 1 track in 60 sq miles. The fact is in Dublin City, you're never too far away from one, other counties have none at all.

COL does have involvement with youth athletics as well to the other poster. He coaches a kids group in Portland. Asking a bit much for him to do it in Cork tbh when he lives in a different Country. And tbf to him, unlike a lot of big name Irish athletes in the past, he does support athletics in Ireland. You'll often see him running National XC or running national track.As for what he said on Barr, different personalities.

Just to be clear, I'm not for a second saying other counties have too many tracks, just that Dublin certainly do not have near enough. Case in point, from September 2014 to July 2015 Irishtown was out of order. It became a disaster trying to get track time. We only had one day of track per week during winter (instead of two) and in summer only had two days (instead of the usual three). The scrambling for track time was a complete pain in the ass and it was without doubt the most unenjoyable track season I have had. I know of another group who usually use Irishtown who were doing sessions out in Leixlip at 9pm!!

Compare this to just one small part of Paris, where there were 5 tracks within a one kilometre radius, free to the public, and open all day. Also the example in Cologne I mentioned in a previous post.

There's certainly no Dublin bias.

Chivito550

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Actually, there is an attempt to do exactly that going on in Killarney, though they have limited their ambitions to a 200m track. They have been raising funds for over a year and they're getting there but that's purely down to the drive of a handful of people who are getting f all support from officials of any kind.

There should be all kinds of sporting facilities put into all kinds of places. That's how you get kids (and adults) into exercising. Ireland has the worst obesity crisis of all of Europe coming up and that shameful lack of sporting facilities is a major contributing factor.

Half my family is South Kerry. I was down there the day Gillian O'Sullivan won her phenomenal silver medal at the Worlds in Paris. Nobody down there gave a toss despite her being a Kerrywoman. All they cared about was the Kerry v Tyrone semi later that day (and they got thumped!). You are facing a serious uphill struggle down there.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm not for a second saying other counties have too many tracks, just that Dublin certainly do not have near enough. Case in point, from September 2014 to July 2015 Irishtown was out of order. It became a disaster trying to get track time. We only had one day of track per week during winter (instead of two) and in summer only had two days (instead of the usual three). The scrambling for track time was a complete pain in the ass and it was without doubt the most unenjoyable track season I have had. I know of another group who usually use Irishtown who were doing sessions out in Leixlip at 9pm!!

Compare this to just one small part of Paris, where there were 5 tracks within a one kilometre radius, free to the public, and open all day. Also the example in Cologne I mentioned in a previous post.

There's certainly no Dublin bias.

There is a reason why they are free, people have respect for them. We will have to get an 80ft fence to protect ours.

Also the club that runs the mini marathon, how much are they getting in a year? Where is the money going?

average_runner

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Actually, there is an attempt to do exactly that going on in Killarney, though they have limited their ambitions to a 200m track. They have been raising funds for over a year and they're getting there but that's purely down to the drive of a handful of people who are getting f all support from officials of any kind.

There should be all kinds of sporting facilities put into all kinds of places. That's how you get kids (and adults) into exercising. Ireland has the worst obesity crisis of all of Europe coming up and that shameful lack of sporting facilities is a major contributing factor.

There is a 100 times more sport facilities now than there was when we were kids in the country. We werent the fattest back then.

El Caballo

Tombo2001 wrote: »

IYou tell me why small towns around the country have running tracks, while big areas of Dublin have none.

Fair enough Chivito. My points were more aimed towards this quote which I thought you were following on from with the +1.

I know this is going to sound mad to people who haven't lived in the Countryside or do any track training. I used to often train in CastleIsland, it's about 50 minutes from where I live and the earliest evening slot we could get on session days was 9 as well. That is the only running track west of Limerick City in the whole of Muster. Tombo, that along with some huge fundraising is the reason why small towns in the Countryside have running tracks. The tracks do not just service a small town, they service a huge area.

average_runner

El Caballo wrote: »

Fair enough Chivito. My points were more aimed towards this quote which I thought you were following on from with the +1.

I know this is going to sound mad to people who haven't lived in the Countryside or do any track training. I used to often train in CastleIsland, it's about 50 minutes from where I live and the earliest evening slot we could get on session days was 9 as well. That is the only running track west of Limerick City in the whole of Muster. Tombo, that along with some huge fundraising is the reason why small towns in the Countryside have running tracks. The tracks do not just service a small town, they service a huge area.

How many clubs are down that way and what are their numbers?

hot buttered scones

average_runner wrote: »

There is a 100 times more sport facilities now than there was when we were kids in the country. We werent the fattest back then.

Yeah but we were out running around the roads and fields and kicking anything ball shaped for hours on end. Sweet crap, fizzy drinks and crisps were rare treats and I don't I ever ate fast food until I was in my late teens and even then it was way too pricey. We played tennis when Wimbledon was on, cycling races during the Tour De France, running during the Olympics and football and rounders all the time. Until drink and girls came along, but that's for a different forum!