Tax, insurance, NCT checks on private property?

r3nu4l

Over the past few weeks I've noticed that cars parked beside me in the supermarket either have lapsed insurance, tax, NCT, or some combination of the three. The scale of this is huge with at least 50%of the cars I've observed having at least one violation.

In most cases the lapses are in the order of months, so unlikely to be a case that the driver simply forgot to put the new disc in the windscreen.

Just wondering if it is possible for the gardaí to actively enter private car parks and do these checks? Seems like it would be a perfect place to help enforce these laws.

NUTLEY BOY

r3nu4l wrote: »

Over the past few weeks I've noticed that cars parked beside me in the supermarket either have lapsed insurance, tax, NCT, or some combination of the three. The scale of this is huge with at least 50%of the cars I've observed having at least one violation.

In most cases the lapses are in the order of months, so unlikely to be a case that the driver simply forgot to put the new disc in the windscreen.

Just wondering if it is possible for the gardaí to actively enter private car parks and do these checks? Seems like it would be a perfect place to help enforce these laws.

Probably not - not public places within the meaning of the RTA. However, as soon as they drive on to the public road they are fair game.

r3nu4l

Thought as much. I honestly think a few checkpoints outside supermarkets on a busy weekend would do a world of good. From my own observations, there are a lot of people driving around either not displaying the correct discs or worse, driving without having renewed. Might even drive* the uptake of home delivery services

*Pardon the pun

Claw Hammer

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Probably not - not public places within the meaning of the RTA. However, as soon as they drive on to the public road they are fair game.

Supermarket carparks are indeed public places within the meaning of the RTA at least during the opening hours of the supermarket. The guards would be trespassing if they went in and put tickets on the cars as the car park is provided for shoppers and not for road traffic enforcement. There would also be the issue that a business might feel it was being targeted unfairly if the customers were frequently checked, in, or in the immediate environs, of the supermarket.

lifeandtimes

Ive seen the revenue police(no joke exactly who they were) driving around car parks at shopping centres checking vehicles,doubt it was to do with tax or nct but shows that they will go anywhere

Little CuChulainn

Yes it is possible op but it's not encouraged. Usually the only time you will see Gardaí writing tickets in a carpark is when a car is parked in a disabled space or blocking up an area.

hullaballoo

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Supermarket carparks are indeed public places within the meaning of the RTA at least during the opening hours of the supermarket. The guards would be trespassing if they went in and put tickets on the cars as the car park is provided for shoppers and not for road traffic enforcement. There would also be the issue that a business might feel it was being targeted unfairly if the customers were frequently checked, in, or in the immediate environs, of the supermarket.

Your point about the business(es) being nose-out-of-joint is astute and probably constitutes the primary reason why checks are not carried out in supermarket carparks.

However, the trespass point is bogus. How could it be trespass where there is overt permission for anyone to enter? Is that general permission to enter somehow restricted if the entrant is in uniform?

Supermarket carparks are open to the public and that is generally without any limitation whatsoever provided the supermarket complex is open. (Some carparks never close.) It is very much a public place notwithstanding that it might not be on publicly owned land. There is no legal bar that I am aware of that prevents AGS inspecting vehicles in such a place.

GerardKeating

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Supermarket carparks are indeed public places within the meaning of the RTA at least during the opening hours of the supermarket. The guards would be trespassing if they went in and put tickets on the cars as the car park is provided for shoppers and not for road traffic enforcement. There would also be the issue that a business might feel it was being targeted unfairly if the customers were frequently checked, in, or in the immediate environs, of the supermarket.

If they bought "something" in the supermarket first, could they ticket cars while they returned to their own squad car in the car park?

Victor

Access to such locations is permissive, not public. That permission can be withdrawn on a whim.

Whatever about occasionally checking individual vehicles on site, doing so persistently or universally might see the car park operator reacting in some manner. It's a place for parking cars, not inspecting them.

That said, I imagine many car park operators would welcome the occasional garda passing through.

coylemj

Victor wrote: »

Access to such locations is permissive, not public. That permission can be withdrawn on a whim.

That applies to any car park located on private property, it has no bearing on whether the place is a 'public place' under the RTA at a given point in time. Even if you have to pay to enter, it can still be a public place.

Some offences (of not displaying a particular piece of paper) apply only on a 'public road' which is a different beast altogether, these are roads which are the responsibility of the local authority so that particular rule could not be enforced in a privately owned car park.

coylemj

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Yes it is possible op but it's not encouraged. Usually the only time you will see Gardaí writing tickets in a carpark is when a car is parked in a disabled space or blocking up an area.

The Gardai cannot ticket someone for parking in a disabled spot in a privately owned car park - what regulation or law is being broken? The only parking regulations they can enforce are those laid down by local authorities and they do not apply on private property.

Victor

coylemj wrote: »

The Gardai cannot ticket someone for parking in a disabled spot in a privately owned car park - what regulation or law is being broken? The only parking regulations they can enforce are those laid down by local authorities and they do not apply on private property.

A. The car park's planning permission probably depends on reserving wheelchair accessible spaces.
B. Who is going to challenge the ticket in court and admit they inappropriately parked in a wheelchair space?

NUTLEY BOY

From an evidential point of view, is there any objection to an unmarked unit touring the car park to note the suspect vehicles, driving out again and waiting to encounter them on the public road ?

Claw Hammer

hullaballoo wrote: »

Your point about the business(es) being nose-out-of-joint is astute and probably constitutes the primary reason why checks are not carried out in supermarket carparks.

However, the trespass point is bogus. How could it be trespass where there is overt permission for anyone to enter? Is that general permission to enter somehow restricted if the entrant is in uniform?

.

There is overt permissions to enter for a particular purpose. There are often signs saying customer parking only. If someone went in to a supermarket car-park and laid out a picnic on the basis of "overt permission to enter" they would soon be told where to go and in fact the garda would be called to encourage them to go.
Scrutton LJ in The Calgarth [1927], said that "when you invite a person into your house to use the staircase, you do not invite him to slide down the bannisters, you invite him to use the staircase in the ordinary way in which it is used".

The same applies to anyone who goes into a supermarket carpark.

NUTLEY BOY

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Supermarket carparks are indeed public places within the meaning of the RTA at least during the opening hours of the supermarket. The guards would be trespassing if they went in and put tickets on the cars as the car park is provided for shoppers and not for road traffic enforcement. There would also be the issue that a business might feel it was being targeted unfairly if the customers were frequently checked, in, or in the immediate environs, of the supermarket.

Understood.

Just for info which RTA section are you citing for that point ?

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

Some offences (of not displaying a particular piece of paper) apply only on a 'public road' which is a different beast altogether, these are roads which are the responsibility of the local authority so that particular rule could not be enforced in a privately owned car park.

Tax, insurance and NCT disc display are all required to be displayed in public places, not public roads.

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

The Gardai cannot ticket someone for parking in a disabled spot in a privately owned car park - what regulation or law is being broken? The only parking regulations they can enforce are those laid down by local authorities and they do not apply on private property.

They can if it is a public place.

They enforce the provisions of the Traffic and Parking Regulations 1997 (as amended) which are ministerial regulations, not local authority bye-laws.

coylemj

Victor wrote: »

A. The car park's planning permission probably depends on reserving wheelchair accessible spaces.

That is a planning issue, it does not mean that a Garda or a traffic warden can go into private property and put a ticket on a car for disobeying a sign put there by the owner. Enforcement is down to the car park owner - same as applies with double-yellow lines in a supermarket car park.

Victor wrote: »

B. Who is going to challenge the ticket in court and admit they inappropriately parked in a wheelchair space?

You won't get a ticket in the first place.

coylemj

GM228 wrote: »

They can if it is a public place.

They enforce the provisions of the Traffic and Parking Regulations 1997 (as amended) which are ministerial regulations, not local authority bye-laws.

In so far as it references parking, that act applies to public roads only and in connection with signs installed by local authorities as there is abundant use of codes for different traffic signs which clearly does not apply to signage on private property. See s.36...

36. (1) Save as otherwise provided for in these Regulations and subject to article 5, a vehicle shall not be parked on a public road at a location, in a manner or for a purpose referred to in this article.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

In so far as it references parking, that act applies to public roads only and in connection with signs installed by local authorities as there is abundant use of codes for different traffic signs which clearly does not apply to signage on private property. See s.36...

36. (1) Save as otherwise provided for in these Regulations and subject to article 5, a vehicle shall not be parked on a public road at a location, in a manner or for a purpose referred to in this article.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print

The parking restrictions applying to a public road only applies to those restrictions mentioned in Article 36 (2) only and no other articles in the Regulations.

Restrictions on parking in a wheelchair space is covered under Article 44 which applies to public places as per S35 of the Road Traffic Act 1994 under which the 1997 regulations were issued.

coylemj

GM228 wrote: »

The parking restrictions applying to a public road only applies to those restrictions mentioned in Article 36 (2) only and no other articles in the Regulations.

Other than the prohibitions mentioned in S.36(2) (which only apply on a public road), none of the other restrictions on parking mentioned in that act could possibly apply on private property since they relate to contra-flow bus lanes, clearways, school entrances etc.

If I park on double-yellow lines in my local shopping centre, are you seriously telling me that the Gardai can give me a parking ticket?

GM228 wrote: »

Restrictions on parking in a wheelchair space is covered under Article 44 which applies to public places as per S35 of the Road Traffic Act 1994 under which the 1997 regulations were issued.

A disabled spot requires an appropriate 'traffic sign' and they only apply on public roads.

S.44 of the 1994 act states the following...

44. (1) Subject to sub-article (2), where traffic sign number RRM 015 [Disabled Persons Parking Bay] is provided, a vehicle shall not be stopped or parked.

A 'Traffic sign' is defined as follows .....

“‘traffic sign’ means any sign, device, notice or road marking, or any instrument for giving signals by mechanical means, which does one or more of the following in relation to a public road or public roads:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0007/print.html#sec37

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

Other than the prohibitions mentioned in S.36(2) (which only apply on a public road), none of the other restrictions on parking mentioned in that act could possibly apply on private property since they relate to contra-flow bus lanes, clearways, school entrances etc.

If I park on double-yellow lines in my local shopping centre, are you seriously telling me that the Gardai can give me a parking ticket?



A disabled spot requires an appropriate 'traffic sign' and they only apply on public roads.

S.44 of the 1994 act states the following...

44. (1) Subject to sub-article (2), where traffic sign number RRM 015 [Disabled Persons Parking Bay] is provided, a vehicle shall not be stopped or parked.

A 'Traffic sign' is defined as follows .....

“‘traffic sign’ means any sign, device, notice or road marking, or any instrument for giving signals by mechanical means, which does one or more of the following in relation to a public road or public roads:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0007/print.html#sec37

The offence for parking in a disabled space comes under S35 of the Road Traffic Act 1994 under which the 1997 regulations are issued which applies the offence to a public place.

Esel

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Ive seen the revenue police(no joke exactly who they were) driving around car parks at shopping centres checking vehicles,doubt it was to do with tax or nct but shows that they will go anywhere

Never heard of them! What country are you living in?

coylemj

GM228 wrote: »

The offence for parking in a disabled space comes under S35 of the Road Traffic Act 1994 under which the 1997 regulations are issued which applies the offence to a public place.

The prohibition on parking (without a permit) in the case of a disabled bay only applies if 'traffic sign number RRM 015 [Disabled Persons Parking Bay] is provided' and a 'traffic sign' is applicable on public roads only per S.34 of the 1994 act.

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

The prohibition on parking (without a permit) in the case of a disabled bay only applies if 'traffic sign number RRM 015 [Disabled Persons Parking Bay] is provided' and a 'traffic sign' is applicable on public roads only per S.34 of the 1994 act.

You need to examine S95 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 (as amended) more closely, there is an important part of the definition you are overlooking – the comma and the use of "or".

“traffic sign” means any sign, device, notice or road marking, or any instrument for giving signals by mechanical means, which does one or more of the following in relation to a public road or public roads:

(a) gives information (such a sign being referred to in this section as ‘an information sign’),

(b) warns persons of danger or advises persons of the precautions to be taken against such danger, or both (such a sign being referred to in this section as ‘a warning sign’),

(c) indicates the existence of a road regulation or implements such a regulation, or both, or indicates the existence of a provision in an enactment relating to road traffic (such a sign being referred to in this section as ‘a regulatory sign’);

The comma helps separate the definition into three distinct parts, many cases of statutory interpretation have come before the High Court and Supreme Court in relation to the use of a comma (A. A. A. A. D. vs R.A.T and The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform [2009] IEHC 326 or F.K.S vs R.A.T and The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform [2010] IEHC 137 for example), and often concluded that the legislature intent in using a comma was to separate the latter part of a section/definition from the initial qualifying part (see Quirk and Ors A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language (General Grammar) (2nd edn, Longman 1985), which in the case of a public road is "any instrument".

Thus the definition of “traffic sign” should be read as something along the lines of:-

“traffic sign” means any sign, device, notice or road marking,

or any instrument for giving signals by mechanical means

or which does one or more of the following in relation to a public road or public roads


Even if I'm wrong with the last comma, the comma and "or" between marking and any instrument separates the definition into two distinct different definitions.

The first part is stating what a traffic sign is, the second part is stating "or any instrument" and the third part stating what it does, in relation to a public road. Nothing in the definition excludes the use of a traffic sign from private property or gives sole power to use them to a local authority. That coupled with the fact that an offence for parking in a disabled space falls under the category of parking in a disabled space in a public place under S35 of the Road Traffic Act 1994.

35.—(1) The Minister may make regulations for the general regulation and control of traffic (including the parking of vehicles) and pedestrians in public places.

(2) Regulations under this section may, in particular and without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1), provide for all or any of the following matters:

<snip>

(k) specifying rules for the parking of vehicles in public places

S95 of the 1961 Act in general allows for a traffic sign to be used on private land or near a public road and be issued by a person other than a local authority, it also interestingly specifically states a regulation applies to traffic on “roads”, not a public road or a public place and road is defined as:-

“road” includes any bridge, pipe, arch, gully, footway, pavement, fence, railing or
wall forming part thereof

The Road Traffic (Signs) Regulations 1997 which give legal effect and meaning to traffic signs and which defines the RRM 015 disabled parking bay sign were specifically amended in 2012 to amend the S95(1) reference to simply S95 to apply the generality of the entire section for the definition of a traffic sign.

The fact of the matter is that Gardai do prosecute for such offences on occasion (albeit rare), my brother has done it himself and my understanding is the Gardai have Attorney General advice on the matter stating the above, until such a time that the High Court or Supreme Court says they can’t on a point of law then that will continue.