1 billion in motor tax receipts for 2015

bear1

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/0327/862927-1-billion-collected-in-motor-tax-in-2015/

Not a long article but interesting to see that the Government is losing money on post 08 cars.
Which only means one thing...
The issue of evasion also tells me that we won't be seeing paper less motor tax anytime soon nor implementing the tax into fuel.
50 million in admin costs a year though, what the actual fcuk.
I'd love to know how much the government actually collects from the motorist.
Fuel tax/VRT/motor tax/insurance levy/tolls/VAT on the NCT.
Curious how they will solve the changing ownership loophole to cancel out the arrears.
Probably they will end up sending out a bill to the previous owner for any tax due unless declared off the road?

Cee-Jay-Cee

I've said it before and I'll say it again, they can eradicate road tax and insurance evasion once and for all by issuing everyone with their own registration number. If you want to keep your registration number, you pay a yearly fee (which should be set up so it can be paid monthly) If you fail to pay, the number is revoked, your insurance is invalidated and the car can be seized with a hefty fine in order to reclaim it.

If you sell your car, you take the number with you to the new car. If you want to own/keep more than one car then you apply and pay for a new number for the 2nd or 3rd car in your possession.

ironclaw

You'd make one hell of an ANPR system for a fraction of 50 million with some spare change for the traffic corp, that's all I'll say.

Atlantic Dawn

The mind boggles...

At present, the level of motor tax compliance is not monitored.

Analysis of vehicles on the M50 in 2010 and 2011 suggested an evasion rate of around 5%, however, such analysis has not been repeated since due to data protection concerns.

bear1

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again, they can eradicate road tax and insurance evasion once and for all by issuing everyone with their own registration number. If you want to keep your registration number, you pay a yearly fee (which should be set up so it can be paid monthly) If you fail to pay, the number is revoked, your insurance is invalidated and the car can be seized with a hefty fine in order to reclaim it.

If you sell your car, you take the number with you to the new car. If you want to own/keep more than one car then you apply and pay for a new number for the 2nd or 3rd car in your possession.

Think they do this in Belgium or Switzerland.. Can't remember which.
Tbh any system at this stage would be better.
I mean 1 billion just in that tax and then 300 million from that squandered on iw.

ironclaw

bear1 wrote: »

Think they do this in Belgium or Switzerland.. Can't remember which.
Tbh any system at this stage would be better.
I mean 1 billion just in that tax and then 300 million from that squandered on iw.

Switzerland. They had (or have?) a 'phone book' with everyone's name and address in it linked to their license plate.

Ubbquittious

ironclaw wrote: »

Switzerland. They had (or have?) a 'phone book' with everyone's name and address in it linked to their license plate.

So ya could end up with a letter through your door saying "you're an awful bollix for not letting me pass you while you were doing 1/2 the speed limit on a twisty 1-lane road"

uck51js9zml2yt

The govt is looking at the UK system of continuous taxation.
Having worked in an MTO, the level of evasion was scarey and the number of yoyo cars was horrendous.,.IE, they bounced around members of the one Family to evade arrears.

bear1

Layton Chubby Symmetry wrote: »

The govt is looking at the UK system of continuous taxation.
Having worked in an MTO, the level of evasion was scarey and the number of yoyo cars was horrendous.,.IE, they bounced around members of the one Family to evade arrears.

What's the continous taxation policy?

Technique

bear1 wrote: »

What's the continous taxation policy?

If your tax expires on 31st March and there's no record of payment on 1st April, then a fine is automatically sent to you. If your car is off the road then it's up to you to complete a SORN before 1st April.

melloa

congratulations government,

you have pushed joe soap beyond his budget, and joe soap aint paying anymore ripoff tax insurance, fukk youu

CiniO

Technique wrote: »

If your tax expires on 31st March and there's no record of payment on 1st April, then a fine is automatically sent to you. If your car is off the road then it's up to you to complete a SORN before 1st April.

They could probably do it, but only apply to currently taxed cars.

At the moment, there's probably millions of vehicles still in the system which don't exist anymore, some of them for many many years.
Registered owners would be surprised if they got fines for not taxing vehicles which were scrapped, dismantled, exported, etc in the 90's f.e.

melloa

CiniO wrote: »

They could probably do it, but only apply to currently taxed cars.

At the moment, there's probably millions of vehicles still in the system which don't exist anymore, some of them for many many years.
Registered owners would be surprised if they got fines for not taxing vehicles which were scrapped, dismantled, exported, etc in the 90's f.e.

excuse me, but are you defending this deranged tax system>

CiniO

melloa wrote: »

excuse me, but are you defending this deranged tax system>

The only deranged thing about the motortax system in Ireland is that it exists at all.
It's a 21st century, and taxing vehicles which from being luxury goods 100 years ago became everyday's necessities, is just pure nonsense.

Ireland should follow many other countries which abandoned charging tax on vehicles...


But back to subject, I was just saying that as in Ireland there were never any consequences of not finishing vehicle life properly (f.e. certificate of destruction) but anyone could have dismantled a car in their garden and burn the remains without suffering any consequences, or sell vehicles abroad for export but still keep them registered in Ireland in their names, then there's so many dead vehicles in Shannon's database, that trying to make anything reasonable with that system is going to be a nightmare.

bear1

For those old enough to remember, back in the late 70s the government scrapped motor tax but it was then reintroduced.
Can anyone say why it was decided to scrap it and why it was introduced again?
Monumental failure?

mikeecho

bear1 wrote: »

For those old enough to remember, back in the late 70s the government scrapped motor tax but it was then reintroduced.
Can anyone say why it was decided to scrap it and why it was introduced again?
Monumental failure?

Motor tax was scrapped by the then Taoiseach, Jack Lynch (or rather his government) in turn a few pence was added to petrol/diesel to make up the difference.

Well.. low and behold, a few years later, the country needs money.. So motortax was reintroduced, and the few extra pence stayed on the petrol.

People seem t want history to repeat itself..


Also, a few years ago, 2008, Guernsey island scrapped motor tax, and increased fuel duty, and now... http://www.itv.com/news/channel/2016-10-21/deputies-calling-for-motor-tax-to-come-back/

bear1

mikeecho wrote: »

Motor tax was scrapped by the then Taoiseach, Jack Lynch (or rather his government) in turn a few pence was added to petrol/diesel to make up the difference.

Well.. low and behold, a few years later, the country needs money.. So motortax was reintroduced, and the few extra pence stayed on the petrol.

People seem t want history to repeat itself..


Also, a few years ago, 2008, Guernsey island scrapped motor tax, and increased fuel duty, and now... http://www.itv.com/news/channel/2016-10-21/deputies-calling-for-motor-tax-to-come-back/

Could the oil crisis of the late 70s have also had an affect on the reintroduction?
Considering the country was broke as fook regardless of the motor tax rates, it could be feasible that they re think the entire idea of adding it to the fuel again.
That way there is a 0% avoidance of tax evasion.

mikeecho

bear1 wrote: »

Could the oil crisis of the late 70s have also had an affect on the reintroduction?
Considering the country was broke as fook regardless of the motor tax rates, it could be feasible that they re think the entire idea of adding it to the fuel again.
That way there is a 0% avoidance of tax evasion.

what about electric cars ?

Red Kev

bear1 wrote: »

For those old enough to remember, back in the late 70s the government scrapped motor tax but it was then reintroduced.
Can anyone say why it was decided to scrap it and why it was introduced again?
Monumental failure?

It was an election promise for the 1977 election to get rid of motor tax and rates. Good idea and it got FF elected with an overall majority.

Just one slight problem with it.... It was bollix.

Short sighted electioneering, which had no plan for alternative revenue generation thus leaving a massive hole in the state finances that had to be filled by either raising taxes elsewhere, making cutbacks or borrowing money from abroad.

mikeecho

anyone remember stickers like this when they were growing up

http://s81.photobucket.com/user/mantamad/media/533779_10151249530564179_134764176_n_zps6b446a72.jpg.html




can you read the small print ?

millington

mikeecho wrote: »

what about electric cars ?

They already get tax benefits because of low emissions so it would still be the same basically.

Red Kev

mikeecho wrote: »

anyone remember stickers like this when they were growing up

http://s81.photobucket.com/user/mantamad/media/533779_10151249530564179_134764176_n_zps6b446a72.jpg.html




can you read the small print ?

Also...Free a Nipper...Jesus Saves, but he's not on PAYE ......and a sun strip on the windscreen that said 'Joe Dolan and the Drifters'.

bear1

mikeecho wrote: »

what about electric cars ?

What about them? They already get generous grants and don't require fuel so they are taxed through the VAT on their elec bill.

Ubbquittious

bear1 wrote: »

What about them? They already get generous grants and don't require fuel so they are taxed through the VAT on their elec bill.

I can see it getting to the point where you'll have to charge them using a special meter that bills you for the would-be excise that you'd have had to pay were you driving a petrol car instead.

They'll put a form of DRM on electric cars that will make them refuse to accept charge from an ordinary source of power that doesn't do an encrypted handshake with the Revenue's servers every couple of seconds to 'bless' the past few watt-hours it's after sending to the car

bear1

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I can see it getting to the point where you'll have to charge them using a special meter that bills you for the would-be excise that you'd have had to pay were you driving a petrol car instead.

They'll put a form of DRM on electric cars that will make them refuse to accept charge from an ordinary source of power that doesn't do an encrypted handshake with the Revenue's servers every couple of seconds to 'bless' the past few watt-hours it's after sending to the car

To be honest, I think EV ownership is too low here for that to be a problem for now.
If EV became suddenly as popular as a 1.2tdi **** box then I can see the Government trying to pull some cash back from them.
As for now I'd be surprised if they even bring in 100k a year in revenue to the Government.

ironclaw

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I can see it getting to the point where you'll have to charge them using a special meter that bills you for the would-be excise that you'd have had to pay were you driving a petrol car instead

Emm, this is exactly what is going to have to happen and is a the driving force behind smart metering. You can be sure that in our life time an electric car will be the same expense as a current petrol one. Its not going to be a cheaper option. Our electricity system currently can't support everyone coming home, plugging in the car and popping the dinner on. That infrastructure will need to be improved and that cost has to come from somewhere. Likewise, in times of shortage, you will see electric cars being used as battery packs for the grid and you'll get a rebate for charge flowing the other way e.g. Your electricity will be cheaper if you are ok with a half charge by morning as opposed to a full charge.

mikeecho

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I can see it getting to the point where you'll have to charge them using a special meter that bills you for the would-be excise that you'd have had to pay were you driving a petrol car instead.

They'll put a form of DRM on electric cars that will make them refuse to accept charge from an ordinary source of power that doesn't do an encrypted handshake with the Revenue's servers every couple of seconds to 'bless' the past few watt-hours it's after sending to the car

And then we'll have drivers using washed electricity, or electricity smuggling.

cros13

ironclaw wrote: »

Emm, this is exactly what is going to have to happen and is a the driving force behind smart metering. You can be sure that in our life time an electric car will be the same expense as a current petrol one. Its not going to be a cheaper option.

It would still be cheaper even if the same amount of tax was directly transferred. One reason is that EVs use energy 3-5 times more efficiently than combustion engines, so even if higher taxes were applied to equal the same amount of revenue, the pre-tax cost of the energy would be lower anyway.

Couple reasons that's probably not going to happen.
1. electricity is too easy to generate on a micro-scale
2. it's not possible to differentiate between electricity fed to an EV and any other electrical load.
3. they already have a plan for replacing the revenue with GNSS road pricing. NRA did preparatory work including mapping and studies a few years back.

ironclaw wrote: »

Our electricity system currently can't support everyone coming home, plugging in the car and popping the dinner on. That infrastructure will need to be improved and that cost has to come from somewhere.

Actually, we can support half the cars on the road switching with only minor upgrades to the low voltage network and just using the timers (standard on pretty much all EVs) that almost all EV drivers use right now (to get nightsaver rates)... and all road transport switching if on-demand charging is implemented on a wide scale. Without any additional generating capacity.

The reason is the grid is sized to support demand on the worst minute of the worst day of the year. However demand fluctuates considerably, an average 35-40% drop happens every night for example:



Which is why I only pay 6c/kWh for charging my cars over night.

The smart chargers are already in wide-scale trials and some are commercially available.

ironclaw wrote: »

Likewise, in times of shortage, you will see electric cars being used as battery packs for the grid and you'll get a rebate for charge flowing the other way e.g. Your electricity will be cheaper if you are ok with a half charge by morning as opposed to a full charge.

I don't think the vehicle to grid stuff will work out. It's already cheaper to buy a 13kWh home battery with built-in inverters (Powerwall 2 AC - 13.2kWh €6300 inc. VAT) than the V2G inverter alone. Also why put extra cycles on your expensively engineered battery in your vehicle when you could just buy a cheaper battery built for the job?

ironclaw

I'd disagree with your idylic viewpoint cros13. Take a match day for example, at half time, you can see a noticable spike from people putting on the kettle. Likewise, at 5pm when people start to make dinner. If you now assume everyone gets home between 5pm and 7pm, you have a 2 hour window where people will likely want to top up their cars to do something after work. This has to occur country wide (So outside Dublin where networks are pretty poor for this type of capacity) All in, its an incredible amount of extra load to place on the system. Looking further along, say when everyone is home, you had a period between 9pm and 6am (The start of the commute) where everyone will again want to charge their cars. Do you trickle charge everyone or allow segments to peak charge in turn? You mention timers, thats great, but its too simplistic. What if we have a cold snap and people are indoors more? You need to be able to drop load so you need the ability to stop cars from charging off the grid or give people the option of dropping off e.g. Electricity price is higher now if you want to continue your charge.

All that upgrading, basically 3 phase power as close as possible to every home with exceptionally good smart metering, has to be done before we can all go EV. I'm not saying its impossible, its not and I want it to happen, but to say it will be cheap and painless is a colossal understatement IMO.

cros13

The scenario you laid out is unlikely.

1. People should be fitting an EVs range to their daily driving. With most current model offering 200km of range and most new models over the next 6-12 months offering 300-400km of range.
   You only need to charge in the evening if you've already been driving for 3-5 hours that day.
   
2. CER is planning a third time of use rate for the 2 hour peak when smart metering comes in. It will be at least 4-5 times more expensive to charge during that peak than during the off-peak.
   
3. The majority of EV owners currently use charge timers, it's a minority who don't. For example I've told my BMW when the low cost hours are... when I plugin every evening it takes account of my next
   google calendar appointment, manually set departure time or regular schedule and figures out the optimal charging schedule itself.

You're underestimating how smart the cars and chargepoints already are. Almost all the cars have onboard modems connected 24/7 and remote control of charging and charging schedule. A minority have WiFi too.
A lot of the new chargepoints also have WiFi, cloud dashboards and there is a standard protocol (OCPP) and APIs that can be used by ESB networks to command load shedding.

This is BMWs new Digital Charging Service dashboard:


The current revision of the "BMWi wallbox" that BMW sells with the 330e, i3 and i8 supports it. It's even currently being used in california for a load shedding trial.
It also integrates any local microgeneration, including using weather data to predict local production over the period until your next departure time.
You can see in the example, when the owner returned at 16:30 there was excess local solar production which was used to charge the car, as production dropped off
the car got less energy and the remainder of the charging is now predicted to be completed at 22:00 when the off-peak electricity comes in... because DCS knows the solar production won't be high enough before departure.

My home chargepoints are already linked to my home automation systems (turned on for demo purposes only):