Rights for buying a second hand car

Sue92

I bought an 08 car little over a month ago from a car dealer costing me a good bit of money witch I got a loan out of the bank to pay for ... yesterday I discovered a warning light come on .. abs light .. rang the warranty place straight away as I got 12 month warranty when got the car .. told me to take it to a local garage for a diagnostics.. I done this and turns out it was the abs pump quoted at 800 e for part ..with out labour.. contacted the warranty company again to explain and they said I was not covered for this !!! I rang the garage I bought the car of explaining the problem and asking if they could help me out ..was basically told that if I was declined and not covered for this in the warranty there is not much more they can do .. I'm very upset and distressed about this as I only have the car that cost me alot for it to go wrong after a short period of time.. anyone know my rights I may have or guide me in the right place wood be great ...thank u

bmwguy

I was asking recently how much value people would pay for a warranty above a private no warranty sale and most people said not much they just cover engine and gearbox issues. Not the things that actually do go wrong! So it's probably your problem but that sounds extremely expensive, good to get yourself a regular mechanic you know and trust to keep the bills honest. Google the part if you know the name of it and the car model see what you come up with, much less than 800 I'd guess.

Del2005

Sale of goods and services act. Original garage has to either repair, replace or refund. Brakes on a 2nd hand car should last more than a month. That's why you spend more from a dealer as they have resolve the issue, private sales are tough luck once you hand over the money.

Sue92

Del2005 wrote: »

Sale of goods and services act. Original garage has to either repair, replace or refund. Brakes on a 2nd hand car should last more than a month. That's why you spend more from a dealer as they have resolve the issue, private sales are tough luck once you hand over the money.

I bought the car from a car garage not privately..do u suggest I demand them to fix the issue even though they state it's not covered.. first time buying a car like this so I am not sure on what to do .. thanks for reply

bmwguy

Sue92 wrote: »

I bought the car from a car garage not privately..do u suggest I demand them to fix the issue even though they state it's not covered.. first time buying a car like this so I am not sure on what to do .. thanks for reply

You should try but you might not get anywhere it's going to be tough to change their mind. What car is it

SCOOP 64

Would have thought the dealer would have at least given you 3 months warranty anyway, then you would have the option to extent it at your cost, still only one month after sale ,you should have some come back.

Sue92

bmwguy wrote: »

You should try but you might not get anywhere it's going to be tough to change their mind. What car is it

It's a Peugeot 207

Sue92

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Would have thought the dealer would have at least given you 3 months warranty anyway, then you would have the option to extent it at your cost, still only one month after sale ,you should have some come back.

I received a 12 month warranty with the car but they say the abs pump is not covered in warranty!!

Del2005

Sue92 wrote: »

I bought the car from a car garage not privately..do u suggest I demand them to fix the issue even though they state it's not covered.. first time buying a car like this so I am not sure on what to do .. thanks for reply

They can say it's not covered by warranty, but a warranty is in addition to your consumer rights and a vehicle from a dealer should last more than a month. Have a read of this

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/motoring/advice_on_buying_a_used_car_in_ireland.html

Del2005

Sue92 wrote: »

I received a 12 month warranty with the car but they say the abs pump is not covered in warranty!!

Ignore the warranty and use the sales of goods and supply of services act. That has you covered.

bmwguy

http://m.ebay.ie/itm/PEUGEOT-207-CITROEN-C2-C3-ABS-PUMP-9659136980-10-0207-0083-4-10-0970-1137-3-G7-/201852815704?nav=SEARCH

Reconditioned one. Loads of them for sale.

All I will say is I can see you have a point about the garage not fixing it seems wrong and I agree with you. But they will dig their heels in if they want to. Offer to buy the part and them fit it, bit of a compromise and goodwill.

But it depends on the garage. I feel for you but how much are you willing to fight and how much will they dig in.

SCOOP 64

Sue92 wrote: »

I received a 12 month warranty with the car but they say the abs pump is not covered in warranty!!

A worthless warranty then, maybe some legal advice needed,doesn't seem
right at all.

Sue92

Del2005 wrote: »

They can say it's not covered by warranty, but a warranty is in addition to your consumer rights and a vehicle from a dealer should last more than a month. Have a read of this

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/motoring/advice_on_buying_a_used_car_in_ireland.html

Thank u so much for your help much appreciated

Sue92

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

A worthless warranty then, maybe some legal advice needed,doesn't seem
right at all.

Starting to think that myself at this stage .. they said they gave me the best warranty but just happens what is wrong isn't covered..typical

dinnybyrne

You have 3 months with any garage regardless dont you?
Demand a refund and they will be quick to fix it

Sue92

dinnybyrne wrote: »

You have 3 months with any garage regardless dont you?
Demand a refund and they will be quick to fix it

Well they gave me 12 months but may aswell got none of them .. they said the actual warranty company are to blame themselves that the garage can't do much for me !

SCOOP 64

Sue92 wrote: »

Well they gave me 12 months but may aswell got none of them .. they said the actual warranty company are to blame themselves that the garage can't do much for me !

Well the way i see they never actually gave you a warranty, the warranty is with the warranty company which they say is nothing to do with them, don't know if this what all dealers are doing these days ,but it seems a complete cop out, don't thing you would get this with main dealers , Opel ,Ford etc.. surely the warranty will be with them.

Harcrid

Lots of dealers "out source" their warranties to third party warranty companies such as Mapfre and unfortunately quite a lot of things are not covered if you read the fine print. It's always been a red flag to me when dealers do this and it sounds like this is what has happened to the OP.

SCOOP 64

So too buy from a dealer these days you would have no more rights then buying private with these useless warrantys they hand out, best to pay for a full inspection before buying even with dealers.

Holy Diver

Sue92 wrote: »

I bought the car from a car garage not privately..do u suggest I demand them to fix the issue even though they state it's not covered.. first time buying a car like this so I am not sure on what to do .. thanks for reply

It's completely ridiculous. Tell the garage you bought it from that you will be speaking to your solicitor.

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

Sale of goods and services act. Original garage has to either repair, replace or refund. Brakes on a 2nd hand car should last more than a month. That's why you spend more from a dealer as they have resolve the issue, private sales are tough luck once you hand over the money.

Del2005 wrote: »

They can say it's not covered by warranty, but a warranty is in addition to your consumer rights and a vehicle from a dealer should last more than a month. Have a read of this

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/motoring/advice_on_buying_a_used_car_in_ireland.html

I had a read through this, and can't see anything which would imply that garage is responsible in OP's case.


They say:

n this situation you, as a consumer, are protected by the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 as you are buying a car for your personal use from a person whose normal business it is to sell cars. As a consumer you have the same rights if you buy an item second hand as if it is new. In this case if you find a fault with the car after you have bought it the dealer is the person who must set matters right.

The best what I found in the mentioned act says:

2) Without prejudice to any other condition or warranty, in every contract for the sale of a motor vehicle (except a contract in which the buyer is a person whose business it is to deal in motor vehicles) there is an implied condition that at the time of delivery of the vehicle under the contract it is free from any defect which would render it a danger to the public, including persons travelling in the vehicle.

Generally, it looks like that vehicle must be sold without fault.
And if person discovers a fault after purchase (which was already there when buying) then garage is responsible.

But in OP's case, car was fine when she bought it, it only broke down a month later. So that's surely not a fault that was present during delivery by garage.

jimmycrackcorm

bmwguy wrote:

All I will say is I can see you have a point about the garage not fixing it seems wrong and I agree with you. But they will dig their heels in if they want to. Offer to buy the part and them fit it, bit of a compromise and goodwill.

No way. It's the garages responsibility. What's the point of buying from therm instead of buying private otherwise.

CiniO wrote:

But in OP's case, car was fine when she bought it, it only broke down a month later. So that's surely not a fault that was present during delivery by garage.

Simply tell the garage to fix it or you'll go to the small claims court which costs very little. Let them try argue their responsibility has been transferred to another company.

CiniO

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Simply tell the garage to fix it or you'll go to the small claims court which costs very little. Let them try argue their responsibility has been transferred to another company.

I'm sure they can't transfer their responsibility to another company.

But do they actually have responsibility for what happened to OP.

If ABS pump was already broken when they sold vehicle they would surely be responsible.
But considering the pump broke a month later, I can't see which law would make them responsible for it.

Del2005

CiniO wrote: »

I'm sure they can't transfer their responsibility to another company.

But do they actually have responsibility for what happened to OP.

If ABS pump was already broken when they sold vehicle they would surely be responsible.
But considering the pump broke a month later, I can't see which law would make them responsible for it.

Your better than us at reading the statues, have a dig in there for the sale of goods and supply of services act.

bmwguy

Best of luck Sue hope you get satisfaction. Minefield though.

jimmycrackcorm

CiniO wrote:

If ABS pump was already broken when they sold vehicle they would surely be responsible. But considering the pump broke a month later, I can't see which law would make them responsible for it.

If you bought a brand new 100k Mercedes and the same happened, do you think you would have no comeback if Mercedes didn't actually offer a warranty?


When you buy from a dealer, the car should be:

Of merchantable quality – it should be of reasonable, acceptable quality given the age and history of the car
Fit for the purpose intended and roadworthy
As described – it should match the description given verbally or in an advertisement.

If the pump breaks shortly after purchase then the car is not fit for purpose.

Again, what's the point of buying from a dealer if they can simply point to a limited warranty? You buy from a dealer specifically because you expect then to provide you with a car fit for purpose.

If they won't fix it tell them you'll go to the SCC . There's nothing to lose by doing that.

melloa

Sue92 wrote: »

I bought an 08 car little over a month ago from a car dealer costing me a good bit of money witch I got a loan out of the bank to pay for ... yesterday I discovered a warning light come on .. abs light .. rang the warranty place straight away as I got 12 month warranty when got the car .. told me to take it to a local garage for a diagnostics.. I done this and turns out it was the abs pump quoted at 800 e for part ..with out labour.. contacted the warranty company again to explain and they said I was not covered for this !!! I rang the garage I bought the car of explaining the problem and asking if they could help me out ..was basically told that if I was declined and not covered for this in the warranty there is not much more they can do .. I'm very upset and distressed about this as I only have the car that cost me alot for it to go wrong after a short period of time.. anyone know my rights I may have or guide me in the right place wood be great ...thank u

9 year old peugeot, :eek:

sorry but you should have asked here before you bought the car,

surely your own mechanic or a family/friends mechanic can get your 9 year old french over-engineered yoke back on the road for 3/400 quid,

how much have you already invested in the car>

bmwguy

melloa wrote: »

9 year old peugeot, :eek:

sorry but you should have asked here before you bought the car,

surely your own mechanic or a family/friends mechanic can get your 9 year old french over-engineered yoke back on the road for 3/400 quid,

how much have you already invested in the car>

I bought a Peugeot 307 brand new in 2002 it's still in the family now it's 15 years 2 months old and it's fine. Nothing wrong with Peugeot. Posts like yours take away from this forum not add to it.

What do you drive? I bet I can insult your car too.

theteal

What's the value of a the car?

What's the SCC limit these days?

Brian Scan

melloa wrote: »

9 year old peugeot, :eek:

sorry but you should have asked here before you bought the car,

surely your own mechanic or a family/friends mechanic can get your 9 year old french over-engineered yoke back on the road for 3/400 quid,

how much have you already invested in the car>

Helpful.

grogi

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If you bought a brand new 100k Mercedes and the same happened, do you think you would have no comeback if Mercedes didn't actually offer a warranty?

Yes, that's what myself and CiniO think. That would never happen - nobody would buy from them if they did not offer any warranty anyway.

Statutory rights apply only to the moment of sale, no warranty has to be given to the state of the goods in future. However if the fault is discovered early enough (don't remember correctly, it is six months probably), the seller must prove it wasn't there at the moment of sale. Otherwise it is the buyer that needs to prove the fault was there.

I love Sean nos

There's a known issue with some ABS pumps, well enough known that kits to fix it exist. I have a 08 reg car and my warning light came on approximately 7 months later.

Joe Duffy quoted me €3k to replace it. A chap who posts in the Motors forum, George Dalton, repaired mine using a kit for €400. I didn't chase the garage over it after 7 months (but I was chasing them over something else).

Might be worthwhile looking into that. A "known issue in the trade" should help when making your case.

.........

melloa wrote: »

9 year old peugeot, :eek:

sorry but you should have asked here before you bought the car,

surely your own mechanic or a family/friends mechanic can get your 9 year old french over-engineered yoke back on the road for 3/400 quid,

how much have you already invested in the car>

you've just demonstrated you know nothing about cars

CiniO

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If you bought a brand new 100k Mercedes and the same happened, do you think you would have no comeback if Mercedes didn't actually offer a warranty?


When you buy from a dealer, the car should be:

Of merchantable quality – it should be of reasonable, acceptable quality given the age and history of the car
Fit for the purpose intended and roadworthy
As described – it should match the description given verbally or in an advertisement.

As you said car should be of merchantable quality, and free from any defects at time of sale, unless buyer was informed about those defects or they were obvious, or in case of dangerous defects it was agreed in writing (f.e. buying damaged car for restoration project or something).

Merchantable quality must take under consideration age, mileage and price.

If the pump breaks shortly after purchase then the car is not fit for purpose.

It's perfectly normal in 9 year old car for ABS pump to fail. Things like that happen. And ABS pump is an item which can break down without any prior symptoms, so chances that it was perfectly good at time of sale are high.


As OP bought a car without warranty covering ABS pump, there doesn't seem to be anything else she can do.

Of course - she can go to small claims court, but I hardly can see how she will be able to prove that ABS pump was already faulty when she bought a car.

Again, what's the point of buying from a dealer if they can simply point to a limited warranty? You buy from a dealer specifically because you expect then to provide you with a car fit for purpose.

Well, that's the whole issue.
IMO there's no point in buying from dealers in Ireland considering how much premium they add to car prices, providing very little in exchange comparing to private sales.
All you really get from buying from dealer is this piece of mind that car is not defective and fit for purpose at the time of sale. (and not stolen or on finance)
Warranties are additional, and usually cover very little.

I've never bought a car from dealer in Ireland, and probably never will unless it's something that can't be got on private market.

bazz26

These type of third party warranties are very typical of alot of small dealers who operate on small margins, don't have mechanic facilities or just really don't want anyone coming back to them with problems and fob you off to the warranty company.

People really need to examine these warranties in detail especially around exclusions before they sign up rather than getting a shock when they go to claim for a fix and it's not covered. Also if I read this right the car is 9 years old so with these type warranties the older the car the more is going to be excluded as the risk is higher for older cars to develope faults. I'm guessing that the warranty excludes most things outside of the engine and gearbox if the car is that old. These warranties are basically insurance policies to protect against mechanical failure but like any insurance policy what is covered is subject to the policy in question. It's like car insurance, you will get 3rd party fire and theft which covers the minimum while if want more cover you opt for full comp and even then you have extra benefits you can add which of course cost you more. These third party warranties are not one size fits all so people need to be vigilant.

The sale of goods act gets mentions in this thread as if it is an absolute. It's not so clear cut, unless it can be proved that the fault existed at the time of sale then claiming the car is not fit for purpose a period of time down the road when a fault occurs just doesn't cut it. If that's the case I could buy a used car from a dealer, keep it for about 5 years and then it develops a fault, should the dealer I bought it off be obliged to fix 5 years on because it is no longer fit for purpose? The sale of goods act is a very grey area when it comes to second hand goods. The same goes with what is deemed a "warranty". What's a reasonable warranty period on a 9 year old car and what is a reasonable amount of cover under that warranty? The SCC is not always the answer to these type of disputes.

.........

So additional warranties don't have to cover anything likely to go, perhaps they can get away with that, but the claim here now seems to be the sale of goods act doesn't have to cover anything failing very shortly after it's sold ? No wonder the motor trade has such a bad rep and is full of cowboys and gougers.

As the cost of the works is less that 2000 i'd advise the claimant to take it to the small claims court, and they will decide who is abusing/avoiding the sale of goods act and who is not.

.........

Harcrid wrote: »

Lots of dealers "out source" their warranties to third party warranty companies such as Mapfre and unfortunately quite a lot of things are not covered if you read the fine print. It's always been a red flag to me when dealers do this and it sounds like this is what has happened to the OP.

There's nothing wrong with a dealer offering/selling additional warranties just like any other business does, and they are really a form of insurance policy taken out with an insurer, and most businesses sell warranties this way, but if they cover nothing expensive that is likely to fail, then they are a sham.

If a dealer wants to provide a warranty, then he has to work out how much extra to charge for every car, to cover those that do go wrong. The problem is that make the legitimate dealers car's more expensive than the cowboys. Worse again some gougers charge well guaranteed car prices, but effectively provide none and pocket the price difference.

I was told by a few ex-car dealers, that an honest person can't hope stay in business in the motor trade and compete with the cowboys and gougers and that's why they packed it in. The only ones that can are main dealers, where people expect to pay more.

grogi

......... wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with a dealer offering/selling additional warranties just like any other business does, and they are really a form of insurance policy taken out with an insurer, and most businesses sell warranties this way, but if they cover nothing expensive that is likely to fail, then they are a sham.

It is a sham - because warranties sold with the car don't cover consumables. These days expensive things like DPF, DMF or simply clutch are consumables and won't be covered. One can get more comprehensive cover - but the dealer has no interest increasing his costs.

While I don't want to be in OP's shoes, I am glad that threads like that popup from time to time. I can only hope that it raises the public awareness and brings the 'safer-because-from-delear' belief down.

.........

It is a sham - because warranties sold with the car don't cover consumables. These days expensive things like DPF, DMF or simply clutch are consumables and won't be covered. One can get more comprehensive cover - but the dealer has no interest increasing his costs.

While I don't want to be in OP's shoes, I am glad that threads like that popup from time to time.[/QUOTE]

Well the many part time amateur dealers masquerading as private sellers are even bigger con merchants. So private sales are no better.
But that's Ireland all over, a heaven for liars con merchants and chancers.

grogi wrote: »

I can only hope that it raises the public awareness and brings the 'safer-because-from-delear' belief down.

I think anyone that's been in Ireland for any length of time already knows that under the surface, certain sectors in Ireland are a haven for chancers, liars and con merchants, and the legit business finds it nearly impossible to compete / operate. The motor trade it a good example, but not the only offender by far.

Del2005

theteal wrote: »

What's the value of a the car?

What's the SCC limit these days?

The value of the repair is what counts. The limit for the SCC is €2k and costs €25. The OP needs to write a letter to the dealer stating the problem and giving them a few weeks to reply.

Regardless of the other posters saying buying from a dealer is a waste of money it's not. I know of several cases where people have got repairs done and a lot where obviously operator induced, but the garage still had to fix or replace the vehicle.

grogi

Del2005 wrote: »

The value of the repair is what counts. The limit for the SCC is €2k and costs €25. The OP needs to write a letter to the dealer stating the problem and giving them a few weeks to reply.

Regardless of the other posters saying buying from a dealer is a waste of money it's not. I know of several cases where people have got repairs done and a lot where obviously operator induced, but the garage still had to fix or replace the vehicle.

Of course it is not waste of time. Sending a letter or even going to SCC costs very little, but the dealer might simply agree to the demands.

Nevertheless claims like that have very little grounds...

Well the many part time amateur dealers masquerading as private sellers are even bigger con merchants. So private sales are no better.

Buy privately, pay private price. The difference will cover majority of expenses should the car is a lemon...

.........

grogi wrote: »

Buy privately, pay private price. The difference will cover majority of expenses should the car is a lemon...

Minor issues only. The difference certainly won't cover anything costly, and you can't trade in to a private seller, and a lot of people trading in a car, rightly don't want the hassle/risk of selling privately, and dealing with the tyre kickers and chancers ringing them up, and turning up at their house, along with the genuine buyers.

Rum Ham!

What mileage is on the car?

melloa

bmwguy wrote: »

I bought a Peugeot 307 brand new in 2002 it's still in the family now it's 15 years 2 months old and it's fine. Nothing wrong with Peugeot. Posts like yours take away from this forum not add to it.

What do you drive? I bet I can insult your car too.

i bet you can't

97 vw vento, 1.4 petrol (factory condition)