He's got a point...

BumperD

https://beta.racingpost.com/news/news/mullins-concentration-of-power-in-irish-racing-is-killing-off-trainers/279310

diomed

A few rules could help.
Limit the number of horses under one ownership in a yard (to single figures?).
Limit the number of horses under one ownership in a race (to one).

Imhof Tank

He seems to be suggesting HRI should deliberately reduce quality at the top end, redistribute to the middle and bottom, and then the big players will loose interest and cease to be dominant.

Mad idea. Ricci, Potts, Wylie would move to England lock stock and barrel. Gigginstown would probably quit altogether. JP would still be around keeping low a lot of low grade horses with their small trainers as he does now.

Irish NH fans could forget about the Betbright Cup as well, it would be back to the bad old days of Galmoy and one or two Cheltenham winners a year.

Francie Barrett

Imhof Tank wrote: »

He seems to be suggesting HRI should deliberately reduce quality at the top end, redistribute to the middle and bottom, and then the big players will loose interest and cease to be dominant.

Mad idea. Ricci, Potts, Wylie would move to England lock stock and barrel. Gigginstown would probably quit altogether. JP would still be around keeping low a lot of low grade horses with their small trainers as he does now.

Irish NH fans could forget about the Betbright Cup as well, it would be back to the bad old days of Galmoy and one or two Cheltenham winners a year.

I agree.

The problem with racing is simply that there are too many trainers. The situation will continue as long as their is a significant minority of trainers out there that are happy to run their yards at a loss. A redistribution of prize money from top races to lower grade ones will basically only subsidise these loss making yards and drive the ownership of top horses abroad.

Lt Dan

I don't know about this

Why should mediocrity be rewarded?

Owners like Gigginstown how patroned many Irish trainers down the years like Dessie Hughes and later Sandra Hughes, Paul Nolan, Murphy, Fenton , Tony Martin, Mouse................. He recently got rid of some of them because they failed to deliver. (

Mullins waffles on about a Company like Ryanair and Competition Laws but ignores the fact that some owners are private individuals. (I do not know if Gigginstown is a Private Limited company, never checked but it has no comparison to Ryanair) Utterly irrelevant , moronic in fact. If I was one of the O'Leary brothers, I would be given Tony a call now and telling him to shut his gob and that he was grossly ill informed, in a typically loveable O'Leary style

If I am spending money on horses (a big if) I want to send them to the best trainer possible (not necessarily a top trainer with loads of horses either, as you want your horses get excellent attention) . I don't want Irish racing dictate to me or the trainer as to how many horses that I can run in a particular race or two to send my horses to. To hell with that, off to England one would go.


Why should an owner be told that he can not run more than 1 horse in a big race? Nicky Henderson had two JP McManus horses come 1-2 in the Champion Hurdle and they were both definitely there on merit. Same a few years ago when Jetski won it. (different trainer)

What has happened to Paul Nolan? He use to be good for a couple of big races.

Fact is, Mullins has no birth right to his occupation. If he is not getting the results, close the yard. In Australia, trainers, many of whom are high profile eg David Hayes (though that is family ) and Gai Waterhouse are now all in partnerships. In a way, it is alright for them as they name their names and money and they are getting on, Hayes is passing the firm to the son and Gai has no kids who want to take on the licence. It is harder for the smaller guys in Aussie racing. But if you look at the amount of horses Damien Weir and Chris Waller have, you think "what is the point"

For far too long we have seen English trainers, many of who are not that great, clean up at Cheltenham on Irish bred horses. This year, Ireland won most of the major races at the Festival. They won 3 of the 4 Championship races

Gordon Elliott did not sit on his backside cribbing and moaning when he started. He went hunting for winning opportunities everywhere. Even as far as Scotland. He made a big name for himself by doing that

This is competition a sport. Owners have a right to trade and do business without having to worry about middle of the road trainers feeling left out.

Imhof Tank

Lt Dan wrote: »

Gordon Elliott did not sit on his backside cribbing and moaning when he started. He went hunting for winning opportunities everywhere. Even as far as Scotland. He made a big name for himself by doing that

Exactly, the likes of Tony Mullins are dinosaurs compared to Elliot. Apparently he has 2 full time staff running his social media and racing club alone. His clients cover the full spectrum from Gigginstown down to the small syndicate guys and even hipsters.

NaiveMelodies

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Exactly, the likes of Tony Mullins are dinosaurs compared to Elliot. Apparently he has 2 full time staff running his social media and racing club alone. His clients cover the full spectrum from Gigginstown down to the small syndicate guys and even hipsters.

:pac::pac::pac:

diomed

Lt Dan wrote: »

Why should an owner be told that he can not run more than 1 horse in a big race? Nicky Henderson had two JP McManus horses come 1-2 in the Champion Hurdle and they were both definitely there on merit. Same a few years ago when Jetski won it. (different trainer)

In a recent 2m 4f novice chase at Naas Gigginstown owned all the four runners. They owned 9 of 10 horses entered before the field was cut.
You might think that is good for racing.
That domination could be used to obtain benefits not available to smaller outfits, often to the detriment of the service provider.

diomed

Lt Dan wrote: »

Why should mediocrity be rewarded?

Owners like Gigginstown how patroned many Irish trainers down the years like Dessie Hughes and later Sandra Hughes, Paul Nolan, Murphy, Fenton , Tony Martin, Mouse................. He recently got rid of some of them because they failed to deliver. (

Did you speak to these trainers?

Custom Cut

diomed wrote: »

In a recent 2m 4f novice chase at Naas Gigginstown owned all the four runners. They owned 9 of 10 horses entered before the field was cut.
You might think that is good for racing.
That domination could be used to obtain benefits not available to smaller outfits, often to the detriment of the service provider.

That was because Cheltenham was the next week. It was over 2 and a half miles, and 6 Irish novice chasers took their chance in the 2 and a half mile novice handicap at the festival, another 4 in the JLT, and a further 2 novices in the festival plate over 2m5f. Every single one of those horses who lined up at the festival would have had a chance in the Naas race, they just chose not to run. It's not Gigginstown's fault if the other owners don't want to run their horses in Ireland.

diomed

Are you saying that there were only another 12 novice chasers in Ireland and they all went to Cheltenham?

Custom Cut

diomed wrote: »

Are you saying that there were only another 12 novice chasers in Ireland and they all went to Cheltenham?

I'm not saying that I'm just making the point that the lack of runners from other owners isn't down to them not having any good horses, but it's because they'd rather run somewhere else.

theaceofspies

Irish racing is going to end up like 'the sow that ate its farrow'.
HRI has only one growth strategy and that involves pumping the majority of its budget (which is mainly taxpayers) money into prizemoney.
Gigginstown et al are gazumping the smaller owners out in the drive to extract the most in winnings. Irish racing always thrived on the diversity of people and horses that graced its stage - it is now becoming a mono-culture.
HRI should hang their heads in shame.

Lt Dan

When I read this article again, I just get really annoyed

Henry De Bromhead lost a few horses from The Potts Family. He lost a horse that has now made Douvan a even better horse (despite his injury plagued run in the QM) and is now a Gold Cup winner. No one can say that Henry did anything wrong with him. He had Special Tiara running against top opposition for so long you would not blame him for trying a softer option, but he persued.

Did he crib and moan? No, he went out and looked for new owners. Sub Lieutentant has come on leaps and bounds over fences, and while he really came no where near Un De Scuex at Cheltenham in the Ryanair, he ran a fine race.

Mullins did not earn himself any brownie points by even uttering the name Ryanair. If I was one of the O'Leary boys, I would be having a quiet word to Mr Mullins and remind him of the difference between a dominant Corporation in an industry where most of the island might need to rely on and a niche sport where he has done more than enough in supporting. His comments were directed at the likes of O'Leary and Ricci who are or have become select him who they patronize. Result gets you noticed, and O'Leary could not give a toss who you are if he thinks that you are the man or woman who can get him more winners. (I felt sorry for Sandra Hughes loosing his horses, but, they have not done much with the new guys anyway bar Sub Lieutenant, especially Prince of Scars)

This is Tony Mullins record in Ireland in the last 5 years, considering the lack of horses he has had, this is probably a very good record
TOTAL 27 280 10 54 27/74 £277,872

Many of his horses, I believe was owned by Barry Connell, whose Matello Towers was trained by Margaret Mullins , who won at Cheltenham in 2015 (I think)


But, now look at the less fashionable name like Michael Winters trainer of the mighty Missunited (3rd in French Cadran, 2nd in Ascot GC, winner of Group 2 race at Goodwood beating the previous years Oaks winnner (and 3rd place in St Leger) and of course Galway favourite
Rebel Fitz
TOTAL 52 437 12 76 52/121 £833,001

Okay, you will observe that Mick had way more horses and runners, but, He is Mick Winters, from Kanturk Cork. I do not think he is from a racing background and was only doing a bit of trainer part time at the start. Tony is a member of a well know racing family.....

"“A monopoly of three or four owners will kill an age-old industry, I have no doubt."

Count how many good horses, Gigginstown sent to how many trainers in Ireland? JP McManus often seems to keep many of his star horses in England with JJ O'Neill and Henderson. People got a chance with Gigginstown

"National Hunt racing has a fantastic tradition at grassroots level and has very broad tentacles, but they are being burned away as we speak."

Willie Mullins has an agent in France who picks horses out of obscurity. Max Dynamite is an example. Sure, he has not done it over fences, but, Lonsdale Cup and a jockey error free run at Melbourne might have made him the second Irish man to train a Cup winner. (Obviously, Vatour came from France) Go out and see can you get a bargain at Point to Point and convince your syndicates to depart with money. Get him winning a few good money races and sell on. Point to Point are telling the media that things have been great for them since 2007 in the sense of getting horses sold- Faugheen being a famous example


"“I would like to ask Brian Kavanagh a question: why didn’t Ryanair buy out Aer Lingus? If he can answer that, he will understand the point I'm trying to make. They weren’t allowed buy Aer Lingus. Why? Because it would monopolise the whole thing.""

Eh, Ryanair and Aer Lingus being very very very very very important airlines of a country that is an island where such transport is vital and used by every member of the public

vs

A niche sport, that is known as "The Sport of Kings" for a reason. Most owners ain't peasants bruv.


"I'm not blaming Gigginstown or the major owners in Ireland, I'm blaming the authorities for allowing this to happen."

Funny that, said nothing about Ricci. Sure, Ricci does not have the same amount of horses in Ireland, but, Ricci has his horses at one trainer's yard, Gigginstown have them at several trainers yards.

How were the authorities to stop it? Good luck ever getting outside owners coming in. The economy did not help the situation. You had your man from Ballymore Properties, Mulyran, he had a lot of horses in France and a few in Ireland. He stopped when the economic went down. You had the Sunderland Drumville posse with Paddytheplaster who would hardly have frightened them off buying again with this success at Cheltenham. Which horses turn up to the Gold Cup etc if JP McManus and Gigginstown do not throw in 2-3 horses, some of whom are actually THERE ON MERIT eg Don Cossack and Don Poli running in the same race. We complain about Ricci and Mullins refusing to race his stars against each other (do not blame them)

"The major owners are not breaking any rules here, let’s get that straight, but the rules shouldn’t allow them to kill an industry. That’s my argument."

Go and get your own syndicates and a better bloodstock agent so and see what you can do at the sales, or try and breed a few (not easy , I know)

""If you wanted to compare this to anything, the most accurate comparison would be when the whole building trade brought down the country."

Funny that, A LOT of people, ordinary people got into that, especially people with pensions or windfalls thinking investing in property was a good, quick and easy way to invest.

Lt Dan

diomed wrote: »

Did you speak to these trainers?

No

1. Has Gigginstown spread around their horses to numerous trainers over the last 5-6 years? Yes

2. When he pulled the plug on Tony Martin and Sandra Hughes (whom I felt really sorry for considering she won the Irish Grand National and won a Group 1 with Lt Colonel ,who has done nothing since)

Why did they remove the horses? I am going by the media reports

http://www.radiokerry.ie/gigginstown-take-horses-away-from-tony-martin-sandra-hughes/

"Eddie O’Leary of Gigginstown confirmed disappointing results from their horses with Martin and Hughes had led to the decision"

"Eddie O’Leary told the Racing Post: “Michael rang both trainers to tell them we’d be taking the horses away for the summer and that they’d not be coming back. We’re very much a results-based business.”

If you are of the opinion or have proof or information that it was more than that, I immediately concede to your better knowledge

Lt Dan

theaceofspies wrote: »

Irish racing is going to end up like 'the sow that ate its farrow'.
HRI has only one growth strategy and that involves pumping the majority of its budget (which is mainly taxpayers) money into prizemoney.
Gigginstown et al are gazumping the smaller owners out in the drive to extract the most in winnings. Irish racing always thrived on the diversity of people and horses that graced its stage - it is now becoming a mono-culture.
HRI should hang their heads in shame.

I am not trying to be confrontational, or trying to seek to challenge you , but

Unless you are an owner or potential owner, what matter will it be? (genuine question, I accept it might be a dumb one)

If a trainer is good enough, he will be patronized by owners. People will still be working in the industry one way or another

As for punters, the name of the owner should be utterly irrelevant so long as there is no evidence that the owner is trying to stop one horse in a race over his other horse. ( I assume , as a pursuit of the sport, you nevertheless have a concern that the sport will die if new owners do not come through )

Lt Dan

diomed wrote: »

In a recent 2m 4f novice chase at Naas Gigginstown owned all the four runners. They owned 9 of 10 horses entered before the field was cut.
You might think that is good for racing.
That domination could be used to obtain benefits not available to smaller outfits, often to the detriment of the service provider.

Why did the other owners not enter their horses? Fear or genuine realisation that they will be beaten? Surely not all of Gigginstown horses are that good?

Or was it that they were not rated high enough to get into the race? (genuine question, sorry if it sounds dumb)