Flat Season 2017

Francie Barrett

Diomed will undoubtedly be quite pleased. Flat season is having its curtain raiser with the Irish Lincolnshire meeting this Sunday at Naas this year (while the Curragh is being done up). A total cavalry charge of a race, I think I have one that could run extremely well should the going be in anyway heavy. Anyone taken a look through the card or have any fancies they intend on following throughout the season?

Copper_pipe

Any chance of a link to the card

longshotvalue

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Diomed will undoubtedly be quite pleased. Flat season is having its curtain raiser with the Irish Lincolnshire meeting this Sunday at Naas this year (while the Curragh is being done up). A total cavalry charge of a race, I think I have one that could run extremely well should the going be in anyway heavy. Anyone taken a look through the card or have any fancies they intend on following throughout the season?

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
:mad::mad::(:(


I was hoping not to hear anything about flat for another while yet.

Hopefully no one else will mention it until punchestown is over

tryfix

The Big race season starts in Meydan with the Dubai World Cup meeting on Saturday.

A mouthwatering card is in store with Arrogate, Postponed, Highland Reel, Ribchester, Seventh Heaven and a host of other cracking horses such as Deauville, Mondialiste, Decorated Knight etc running.


http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/horses2/cards/meeting_of_cards.sd?crs_id=1231&r_date=2017-03-25

Copper_pipe

Heartbreak City goes in the 3rd race at Meydan I see

Luap

End of the Friday night fun at Dundalk?

Copper_pipe

Luap wrote: »

End of the Friday night fun at Dundalk?

http://dundalkstadium.com/events/category/horse-racing/

Lt Dan

Flat Season, let the real racing begin

convert

aidankkk wrote: »

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
:mad::mad::(:(


I was hoping not to hear anything about flat for another while yet.

Hopefully no one else will mention it until punchestown is over

I was actually about to post something similar. I'd think along the same lines, and growing up as a kid the flat season was never over until after Punchestown, and even then it was when the point-to-point season finished (and that was before the autumn 'pointing was a thing).

mdwexford

Lt Dan wrote: »

Flat Season, let the real racing begin

Yes the running in a straight line, or maybe around a bend!!! :eek:

How will we contain our excitement. :rolleyes:

longshotvalue

mdwexford wrote: »

Yes the running in a straight line, or maybe around a bend!!! :eek:

How will we contain our excitement. :rolleyes:

The start of the Flat is the only thing in racing worse than having to watch the Midlands Grand National on the Boat Home from Cheltenham.

That said i dont mind the big day at Mayden on Saturday

diomed

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Diomed will undoubtedly be quite pleased.

Last week I received in the post from the BHB the programme for the English Flat (and Jumps) for 1st April to 30th June.
It is hundreds of pages listing all the races and their conditions.
Its the first time I've bought it, and will probably not use it much. I'm thinking of concentrating on a few races.
Daniel Berger in the US Masters at 100/1+ first :cool:

diomed

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Diomed will undoubtedly be quite pleased.

I think my preference for the flat started with Leopardstown on a St Stephens Day in the 1970s. I had a brutal hangover, it was freezing, blowing a gale, and raining heavily. And I lost all my money.
I can understand why people prefer one type of racing over the other. Being interested in racing every day of the year would be too much.

But I can not hold a candle to Peter Scott of The Daily Telegraph. This is from an article from July 200 in Pacemaker (I keep lots of articles). "Scott didn't suffer fools at all and only had eyes for the Flat. As we travelled back from the Grand National on the train in my early days, he would order a bottle of Medoc as he cleared Runcorn Bridge and beam: "Thank God that bloody dog race is over for another year". Asked why he would not report on the Breeders' Cup meeting, he would observe: "I don't attend junkies' jamborees".

Lt Dan

mdwexford wrote: »

Yes the running in a straight line, or maybe around a bend!!! :eek:

How will we contain our excitement. :rolleyes:

From lighting fast sprinters, to milers, Derby horses, 16 furlong plodders, to Gold Cup Champions. Many of whom will be future NATIONAL HUNT SIRES - nice to know or remember who the horses were in their own race day, when we are talking about the next King's Theatre (placed in Irish / British Derby and won King George) and Presenting (Irish Derby Winner) or Kayf Tara (Gold Cup winner)

Oh, and it is racing competed by more than 2 power house nations!

Plenty to get excited about actually! Speed always wins baby. Nice Cruising Control, obviously. Horse "as big as a bull", could win the Derby, even the Gold Cup and still be good enough for the July Cup

I know Galway is a crazy track, but if you dislike Epsom, then there is no point being a live (I assume Alastair Downes has used that before)

Don't be going hating on the flat because Istabraq and Nicholls Canyon couldn't hack the pace of flat racing yo:D

Anyway, whatcha gonna do during the summer time with low quality jumping until Galway ? Midlands Grand National in Kilbeggan? Awesome.

uxiant

Love both codes but there are way too many uncompetitive races in National Hunt because of the amount of graded contests and this obsession with Cheltenham has a detrimental affect on the season post Christmas. Look at the Betfair Hurdle and Imperial Cup fields this year which should be two of the most exciting handicaps in the spring. British National Hunt racing is just awful between Christmas and the festival. At least it's alright in Ireland with those good Leopardstown meetings.

Betting wise I find the flat more appealing as you can watch a race in minutes and don't have half the field finishing races at times. Sometimes spending ages watching staying chasers slog it through the mud just to get a handle on the form can get a bit much and time consuming.

Looking forward to Naas on Sunday.

Francie Barrett

Copper_pipe wrote: »

Heartbreak City goes in the 3rd race at Meydan I see

Thank god the connections have finally seen sense. Considering what this horse did at Australia, it simply has to be given a chance to go globe trotting over staying flat races. With the Magic Man on board as well, I can't help but be enthusiastic on this one.

Copper_pipe

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Thank god the connections have finally seen sense. Considering what this horse did at Australia, it simply has to be given a chance to go globe trotting over staying flat races. With the Magic Man on board as well, I can't help but be enthusiastic on this one.

Will it handle the Dirt do you think ?

Francie Barrett

Copper_pipe wrote: »

Will it handle the Dirt do you think ?

The Dubai Gold Cup is over turf, ground will be good which should suit it just fine.

Peintre Celebre

Not sure the Irish Lincoln is as competitive as it might appear a load of them are high enough. Sruthan loves the mud and won it last year but probably handicapped up to his eyes. Stable mate Aussie Valentine chased him home that day he might improve having come down the weights but 12/1 is stingy enough. Mandamus at 33/1 looks hugely overpriced that'll love the ground but unreliable

diomed

This is a very interesting article about Japanese racing.
http://deadspin.com/how-japan-built-the-worlds-best-horse-racing-1666276824

The Mig

Looking forward to the potential 2018 Triumph hurdle hopes running during the flat season #upthejumps

kksaints

I like the flat when it is the build up to the classics and Royal Ascot. After Ascot my interest in it falls until around the first week of September when the Sprint Cup takes place in Haydock and it picks up again after that with the big Autumn meetings.

Lt Dan

kksaints wrote: »

I like the flat when it is the build up to the classics and Royal Ascot. After Ascot my interest in it falls until around the first week of September when the Sprint Cup takes place in Haydock and it picks up again after that with the big Autumn meetings.

The goodwood meeting can be a bit much bar the Group 1-2s , especially when you are trying to keep an eye on Galway too. But Goodwood Cup getting much needed Group 1 love this will be good

July Cup in ...July

You love for the Ebor Week at rowdy York? Nunthrope/Lonsdale Cup/ The Ebor/ Oaks/International? at the end of August?

In the same month of August ya got Arlington Millions in the US

Deauville in August in choca block with Group 1s in August

kksaints

Lt Dan wrote: »

The goodwood meeting can be a bit much bar the Group 1-2s , especially when you are trying to keep an eye on Galway too. But Goodwood Cup getting much needed Group 1 love this will be good

July Cup in ...July

You love for the Ebor Week at rowdy York? Nunthrope/Lonsdale Cup/ The Ebor/ Oaks/International? at the end of August?

In the same month of August ya got Arlington Millions in the US

Deauville in August in choca block with Group 1s in August

Apart from the International York has never really grabbed my attention. Another thing that must be said compared to the jumps I have no interest in the big handicaps on the flat.

Lt Dan

diomed wrote: »

This is a very interesting article about Japanese racing.
http://deadspin.com/how-japan-built-the-worlds-best-horse-racing-1666276824

Why do you think Ryan Moore has been going over there , missing some of Christmas, for years ?(though it has been said that Ryan would race on the moon on Christmas Day if he could) Fran Berry frequently raced there too.

No real surprise. Hong Kong has strict rules too (and I do not believe that their horses , beyond a mile are anywhere near as good as the rest of the world -something is wrong when even Zac Putton who I rate, is miles behind The Magic Man)

The Japanese are getting really really serious too. It is only a matter of time that they win the Arc. Who remembers the annual arrival of hardcore Japanese fans at the Arc, nearly crying over their star horse, with scarfs and posters. Hilarious stuff. A few of the well known British horses like Workforce and Pilsudsk,Conduit, Harbinger (all Stoute's horses lol) were sent to Japan to stud for big money. Many of them did not last there though. Point is, they have been seriously trying .

Wonder will China be the next place. You see the China Race Club guy showing up to a lot of races. Was hanging around with Coolmore Lads for a while.

Japanese racing ain't no joke. Their prize money is also insane.

Pitty that the Japan Cup is on during such a bad time for horses in Europe. That Japan Cup, even to place , is a good incentive for a King George/Arc winners

The crowds are massive (I think it is free in on Japan Cup Day) But wow , the crowds are loud.

Lt Dan

kksaints wrote: »

Apart from the International York has never really grabbed my attention. Another thing that must be said compared to the jumps I have no interest in the big handicaps on the flat.

Nunthrope is better than Haydock!

diomed

Lt Dan wrote: »

The Japanese are getting really really serious too. It is only a matter of time that they win the Arc. Who remembers the annual arrival of hardcore Japanese fans at the Arc, nearly crying over their star horse, with scarfs and posters. Hilarious stuff.

I think it would be good for flat racing if the Japanese won the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe and the Epsom Derby.
Nothing like a good kick up the **** to brighten peoples ideas.
I went to Epsom for about fifteen years both days and saw a fair number of Japanese on the trains and at the course. They like the tradition.

tryfix

diomed wrote: »

I think it would be good for flat racing if the Japanese won the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe and the Epsom Derby.
Nothing like a good kick up the **** to brighten peoples ideas.
I went to Epsom for about fifteen years both days and saw a fair number of Japanese on the trains and at the course. They like the tradition.

Winning an Epsom Derby would possibly be as easily done by a Japanese horse as winning an Arc would be, in fact the Japanese horses seem to have peaked somewhat in their efforts to finish first in an Arc.

The Epsom Derby on the other hand usually doesn't take a world championship class performance to win and the Japanese have plenty of top class early maturing 3yos with the right balance of speed and stamina to win an Epsom Derby. The big problem with Japan winning an Epsom Derby is identifying and grooming a single special Colt just for the task, why bother when winning at Epsom is no longer that big of a deal in the breeding shed?

The Deep Impact phenomenon in Japan is even worse than the Galileo phenomenon in Europe, and just maybe it's not the best thing for producing exceptional one off champions who can blow everything away that's put in front of them.

Lt Dan

tryfix wrote: »

Winning an Epsom Derby would possibly be as easily done by a Japanese horse as winning an Arc would be, in fact the Japanese horses seem to have peaked somewhat in their efforts to finish first in an Arc.

The Epsom Derby on the other hand usually doesn't take a world championship class performance to win and the Japanese have plenty of top class early maturing 3yos with the right balance of speed and stamina to win an Epsom Derby. The big problem with Japan winning an Epsom Derby is identifying and grooming a single special Colt just for the task, why bother when winning at Epsom is no longer that big of a deal in the breeding shed?

The Deep Impact phenomenon in Japan is even worse than the Galileo phenomenon in Europe, and just maybe it's not the best thing for producing exceptional one off champions who can blow everything away that's put in front of them.

What is going to happen if the quantity of Mares gets scares because Deep Impact and his sons can't mate with most mares as Deep Impact might be in their line too?Just buy/import mares from Europe? Eg Covert Love and Stacelita were sold to Japan, later being the mother of Frankel's First Group 1 winning horse

WickIow Brave

Can't wait for the flat season.

tryfix

Lt Dan wrote: »

What is going to happen if the quantity of Mares gets scares because Deep Impact and his sons can't mate with most mares as Deep Impact might be in their line too?Just buy/import mares from Europe? Eg Covert Love and Stacelita were sold to Japan, later being the mother of Frankel's First Group 1 winning horse

I see it as more of a short term problem re the Deep Impacts farming so many top Japanese races and not leaving space for the lesser light stallions to make their mark in top races. Long term if Ireland and England could cope with the absolute glut of Sadlers Wells line stallions that have made their way into the general racehorse population then Japan will be fine with absorbing the Sunday Silence ( Deep Impact) stallion lines.

Pretty sure Coolmore have sent one or two superstar mares to Deep Impact.

BumperD

Copper_pipe wrote: »

Heartbreak City goes in the 3rd race at Meydan I see

NRNB have had a good bet ew 7/1. Drawn 10 but given his style I expect that not to hinder. Hoping for him to sit in 6 or 7 position and raise his challenge off the home turn and mow them down on the long straight. With a free passage this fella wins.

tryfix

Jack Hobbs, had a fortunate day in Dubai or he's simply a better horse than Postponed and Highland Reel?

Postponed has definitely either fallen backward or was never that good in the first place. For a horse who had been on a roll last year he never made it higher than OR 124, a pound behind the likes of St Nicholas Abbey who was good on his day but no world beater. Postponed suffered from being hyped up to ridiculous levels by the British Racing press.

Highland Reel is quite simply a 12f fast ground horse which was inconvenienced by the going on Saturday. He also is no great shakes but is open to further improvement as he's now just 5 and improved a lot on his 3yo form as a 4yo. O'Brien was unlikely to leave the rest of the season behind for any of the horses he sent to Dubai, Postponed on the other hand had a prep race already in Dubai this year and this would have been a big target of his. 3 losses in a row say stay away until he shows signs that he's over his current drop in form.

Seventh Heaven is a bit of an enigma, brilliant in the Yorkshire Oaks but not much use since until she showed plenty in a staying on 2nd on Saturday. She's maybe a second Found, being layed out for something like the King George or Arc.

Which leaves the winner Jack Hobbs who on his 3yo form and reasonably close proximity to the top class Golden Horn may well be entitled to a hell of a lot more respect than he's getting. Best older horse in training in my book and with a DI of 1.18 there's a bit of pace there which would win a Coral Eclipse (, a race his trainer targets) and if no superstar 3yo ends up there.

Opinions?

Lt Dan

tryfix wrote: »

Jack Hobbs, had a fortunate day in Dubai or he's simply a better horse than Postponed and Highland Reel?

Postponed has definitely either fallen backward or was never that good in the first place. For a horse who had been on a roll last year he never made it higher than OR 124, a pound behind the likes of St Nicholas Abbey who was good on his day but no world beater. Postponed suffered from being hyped up to ridiculous levels by the British Racing press.

Highland Reel is quite simply a 12f fast ground horse which was inconvenienced by the going on Saturday. He also is no great shakes but is open to further improvement as he's now just 5 and improved a lot on his 3yo form as a 4yo. O'Brien was unlikely to leave the rest of the season behind for any of the horses he sent to Dubai, Postponed on the other hand had a prep race already in Dubai this year and this would have been a big target of his. 3 losses in a row say stay away until he shows signs that he's over his current drop in form.

Seventh Heaven is a bit of an enigma, brilliant in the Yorkshire Oaks but not much use since until she showed plenty in a staying on 2nd on Saturday. She's maybe a second Found, being layed out for something like the King George or Arc.

Which leaves the winner Jack Hobbs who on his 3yo form and reasonably close proximity to the top class Golden Horn may well be entitled to a hell of a lot more respect than he's getting. Best older horse in training in my book and with a DI of 1.18 there's a bit of pace there which would win a Coral Eclipse (, a race his trainer targets) and if no superstar 3yo ends up there.

Opinions?

And here lies the problem with Highland Reel and the rating Winx got once HR won the King George .

HR at 3 did win a soft group 1 in the US at 10f.His biggest win in europe was a 12 f Group 3. He ran well behind Winx in the Cox Plate a 10f race.

Winx high rating last year can't be based on beating Hartnell. It more or less is based on her beating of HR in a race that is two furlongs short of his best in October 2015

It just undermines the credibility of Winx and the ranking system. Aussies go ballistic when it is pointed out to them waffling about Frankel but ignoring that fact that his opponents won over 50 Group 1s between them,some of whom were won around the world

WickIow Brave

tryfix wrote: »

Jack Hobbs, had a fortunate day in Dubai or he's simply a better horse than Postponed and Highland Reel?

JH is a much better horse than Postponed. Postponed ran his race in Meydan, that's as good as he is. He was never as good as he was made out to be anyway. I think Jack Hobbs and Seventh Heaven both have very good chances in the Arc.

Peintre Celebre

Have been against Postponed for s long time as over hyped a nice horse but no world beater. A little surprised at how well Jack Hobbs won but was amazed they backed Highland Reel on that ground. He may prove me wrong but the form may not be as hot as it may have first appeared in a few months

tryfix

Lt Dan wrote: »

And here lies the problem with Highland Reel and the rating Winx got once HR won the King George .

HR at 3 did win a soft group 1 in the US at 10f.His biggest win in europe was a 12 f Group 3. He ran well behind Winx in the Cox Plate a 10f race.

Winx high rating last year can't be based on beating Hartnell. It more or less is based on her beating of HR in a race that is two furlongs short of his best in October 2015

It just undermines the credibility of Winx and the ranking system. Aussies go ballistic when it is pointed out to them waffling about Frankel but ignoring that fact that his opponents won over 50 Group 1s between them,some of whom were won around the world

I don't think it's possible to look at Australian form through European eyes and understand it. For sure there are a ridiculous amount of Gp1 races in Australia, many of them won by horses who are just listed class and European form doesn't travel too well to Australia where you have good European horses running below form and moderate European horses who turn into stars out there.

It's very messed up with horses taking part in 7f and 1mile Group races and then running and staying the 2m trip of the Melbourne Cup. There was even a 7f Group 1 winning 3yo Montjeu out there ( I think).

Their racing may not make sense to us but they do produce some quality horse. I was sceptical about Winx until I saw her destroy Vadamos by 9 3/4l in the Cox Plate and she did it with plenty to spare. Vadamos had won a French Group 1 over a mile on his last start and had got to within 1/2L of Ribchester in another Group 1 mile race on his start before that. That's theoretically really top class form but Hartnell was only 8L behind Winx that day, Hartnell went on to frank the form in subsequent Group 1s and ran well in 2nd off a big weight in the Melbourne Cup where he confirmed superiority over Vadamos, Hartnell ( Group 3 class in Europe) has since gone backward but he was top class for a while.

Winx is brilliant in Australia ( becoming very Zenyatta like with an awesome finishing bust) and it's doubtful any grass horse in the world could beat her from 1mile to 1mile 2f if the race were in Australia. I don't think she'd bring that level of form with her if she raced in the Northern Hemisphere.

Lt Dan

tryfix wrote: »

I don't think it's possible to look at Australian form through European eyes and understand it.

I agree, I genuinely like Australian racing and try to keep up to date with it as much as I can (time zones being a bitch)

tryfix wrote: »

For sure there are a ridiculous amount of Gp1 races in Australia,

Along with fantastic prize money. But some of the races are handicaps, Melbourne being the main one. In fact, I frankly believe that many trainers cheat to get a low mark. They put horses who are probably milers to 10 furlong horses or 12 + furlong horses into sprints ! Sprints! And with heavy weight. They place their horses in races that they have no business running in. Start a season with a 6 or 7 furlong and work their way up. In fairness, while there are 14 -16 furlong races, they ain't around until near the end of their season (eg Sydney Cup) The biggest culprit is the 2015 winner. Hartnell has also being thrown in with 7 f races


In fairness now, Fiorente , Green Moon and Maykbe Diva were (a) simply great horse (even Fiorente was a decent horse with Stoute) and (b) Honestly campaigned and continued winning big races after the Melbourne. So You Think never dodged a challenge in Oz either, and he might not really have had much business running in the MC (ran really well to be fair) Hence, I do not think that the MC is a true stayers race.Luca Cumani is right about that. Sure he nearly won it with Baeur (Purple Moon was a good horse) Max Dynamite failed as a flat horse in France and wasn't good enough on hurdles, Mullins took at chance back at flat and it paid off. Nearly won the MC too (at least he had showed that he was a stayer)


Yes, you can count on one hand the amount of Group 1s for sprints in Britain and Ireland, add the three in France in France.............. Oz has loads of Sprints Group 1s in each Provenance.

tryfix wrote: »

many of them won by horses who are just listed class and European form doesn't travel too well to Australia where you have good European horses running below form and moderate European horses who turn into stars out there.

eg Fiorente for Waterhouse, ex Stoute Horse. Green Moon eg Dunlop horse,

Dibayani, is an ex Aga Khan /Mick Halford Horse. A Listed winner. Sent to Hong Kong (another over hyped country with failed European horses who became superstars), kept decent enough company, but won nothing. Sold to Oz to an excellent trainer

. Has not really done a lot over there either. At 6 years, was a 1 1/2 lengths behind Winx in a mile Group 1 ! Says it all. Done nothing since

United States, ex O'Brien has done very well since going out there. Hartnell has been classed as a top horse over there . Exosphere (aka Exospheric) ex Stoute (Jockey Club Group 2 2016) has preformed very well, placing in 3 Group 1s.

On the other hand, Storm The Stars , (placed in two Derbies and Grand Prix de Paris ) has been a disaster.

tryfix wrote: »

It's very messed up with horses taking part in 7f and 1mile Group races and then running and staying the 2m trip of the Melbourne Cup. There was even a 7f Group 1 winning 3yo Montjeu out there ( I think).

Tavistock , in 2009 and 2010 but in New Zealand

tryfix wrote: »

Their racing may not make sense to us but they do produce some quality horse. I was sceptical about Winx until I saw her destroy Vadamos by 9 3/4l

Would not think Vadamos is that good, despite his Group 1 in the weaker Premier French WFA mile race and coming close to Solow a year before . The race was at 10 furlongs, Vadmos was a miler

tryfix wrote: »

in the Cox Plate and she did it with plenty to spare. Vadamos had won a French Group 1 over a mile on his last start and had got to within 1/2L of Ribchester in another Group 1 mile race on his start before that.

A will say this quietly, but, I do not rate Ribchester!

tryfix wrote: »

That's theoretically really top class form but Hartnell was only 8L behind Winx that day, Hartnell went on to frank the form in subsequent Group 1s and ran well in 2nd off a big weight in the Melbourne Cup

He was 4 1/2 l 3rd with Heartbreak City , from a wide draw about 1/2 l away from wining / HBC!

tryfix wrote: »

Winx is brilliant in Australia ( becoming very Zenyatta like with an awesome finishing bust)

Zenyatta should never be in the discussion when people talk about top class horses. He met the boys only twice. 1/2.

Sure, her first BCC was impressive, but, the top three in the field were out and out Turf horses. I don't buy into her myth. At least Winx has done her stuff but even she was not remotely top class against her own sex with she started out.

tryfix wrote: »

and it's doubtful any grass horse in the world could beat her from 1mile to 1mile 2f if the race were in Australia. I don't think she'd bring that level of form with her if she raced in the Northern Hemisphere.

Unless they are sprinters, Aussie ought to forget about bringing them to Europe especially courses like Newmarket and Ascot

tryfix

Lt Dan wrote: »

I agree, I genuinely like Australian racing and try to keep up to date with it as much as I can (time zones being a bitch)



Along with fantastic prize money. But some of the races are handicaps, Melbourne being the main one. In fact, I frankly believe that many trainers cheat to get a low mark. They put horses who are probably milers to 10 furlong horses or 12 + furlong horses into sprints ! Sprints! And with heavy weight. They place their horses in races that they have no business running in. Start a season with a 6 or 7 furlong and work their way up. In fairness, while there are 14 -16 furlong races, they ain't around until near the end of their season (eg Sydney Cup) The biggest culprit is the 2015 winner. Hartnell has also being thrown in with 7 f races


In fairness now, Fiorente , Green Moon and Maykbe Diva were (a) simply great horse (even Fiorente was a decent horse with Stoute) and (b) Honestly campaigned and continued winning big races after the Melbourne. So You Think never dodged a challenge in Oz either, and he might not really have had much business running in the MC (ran really well to be fair) Hence, I do not think that the MC is a true stayers race.Luca Cumani is right about that. Sure he nearly won it with Baeur (Purple Moon was a good horse) Max Dynamite failed as a flat horse in France and wasn't good enough on hurdles, Mullins took at chance back at flat and it paid off. Nearly won the MC too (at least he had showed that he was a stayer)


Yes, you can count on one hand the amount of Group 1s for sprints in Britain and Ireland, add the three in France in France.............. Oz has loads of Sprints Group 1s in each Provenance.



eg Fiorente for Waterhouse, ex Stoute Horse. Green Moon eg Dunlop horse,

Dibayani, is an ex Aga Khan /Mick Halford Horse. A Listed winner. Sent to Hong Kong (another over hyped country with failed European horses who became superstars), kept decent enough company, but won nothing. Sold to Oz to an excellent trainer

. Has not really done a lot over there either. At 6 years, was a 1 1/2 lengths behind Winx in a mile Group 1 ! Says it all. Done nothing since

United States, ex O'Brien has done very well since going out there. Hartnell has been classed as a top horse over there . Exosphere (aka Exospheric) ex Stoute (Jockey Club Group 2 2016) has preformed very well, placing in 3 Group 1s.

On the other hand, Storm The Stars , (placed in two Derbies and Grand Prix de Paris ) has been a disaster.




Tavistock , in 2009 and 2010 but in New Zealand





Would not think Vadamos is that good, despite his Group 1 in the weaker Premier French WFA mile race and coming close to Solow a year before . The race was at 10 furlongs, Vadmos was a miler



A will say this quietly, but, I do not rate Ribchester!



He was 4 1/2 l 3rd with Heartbreak City , from a wide draw about 1/2 l away from wining / HBC!




Zenyatta should never be in the discussion when people talk about top class horses. He met the boys only twice. 1/2.

Sure, her first BCC was impressive, but, the top three in the field were out and out Turf horses. I don't buy into her myth. At least Winx has done her stuff but even she was not remotely top class against her own sex with she started out.




Unless they are sprinters, Aussie ought to forget about bringing them to Europe especially courses like Newmarket and Ascot

That Tavistock is turning into a top sire, it would be interesting to see if Breeders in Europe would try him if he shuttled for a year or two. They're already complaining in New Zealand about the Asians buying up his stock and leaving NZ short of Tavistocks.


Vadamos was a 12f Monsun horse who reverted to miling just because he was damn good at it, and it was desirable for his stallion credentials and it turned him into a 10,000 a pop stallion which is very high for a Monsun.

Mentioning So You Think makes me think of the different training methods re Australia vs Europe. If you look at photos of So You Think in Australia he's a much more muscled looking horse there than in Ireland. He'd a big muscle bound sprinter-miler behind in Australia and seemed to have a sleeker middle distance shape to him in Ireland. (may be my imagination but I see it in the photos)

I agree about Zenyatta's form, but she was a spectacular crowd pleaser and in fairness to her she kept raising her game to overcome each rise in class. She always seemed to have extra in the locker although her timing meant it couldn't get out of the locker.

kksaints

Unusual breeding for one of Murtagh's horses in the opener at Lepardstown today. Regnum who finished tenth is down as Ukrainian bred. I have never seen that before in the British isles. I remember Tom George had some Polish and Czech breds jumpers at the start of last decade.

Francie Barrett

Surprised no one has mentioned Aidan O Brien being hauled infront of the stewards and having his appeal for the ban on Music Box rejected. Made the front page of the Times and all!

It looks like the Turf Club might finally be getting serious about non-triers.

paddy no 11

Next up the doping vets hopefully

tryfix

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Surprised no one has mentioned Aidan O Brien being hauled infront of the stewards and having his appeal for the ban on Music Box rejected. Made the front page of the Times and all!

It looks like the Turf Club might finally be getting serious about non-triers.

It's a good call, O'Brien with his mega stable makes a mockery out of the rules of racing with his running multiple bluebloods in the same races with the punter not having a clue as to which ones are ready to run their race and which ones are just out for an education.

EICVD

tryfix wrote: »

It's a good call, O'Brien with his mega stable makes a mockery out of the rules of racing with his running multiple bluebloods in the same races with the punter not having a clue as to which ones are ready to run their race and which ones are just out for an education.

Listen, O'Briens obligation is to 'the lads' in Coolmore, not 'the lads' in the bookies.....