Possibility to divide 4 bed terraced house into 2 flats

Fol20

Hi Guys.

I'm just wondering if it's possible to divide a house into two 2 bed apartments to maximise profits.
What are the pitfalls and hurdles that could make something like this difficult to achieve?

Would planningpermission potential block something like this etc.

76544567

I've done it a good few years ago now.
Fairly straightforward and not as expensive as you think.
You can avoid needing planning permission.
Only thing is I'll be selling g them in the next few months and have to sell them as a single unit.
Buyers can put them back the way they were or keep them as they are if they are renting them.

Gumbo

Fol20 wrote: »

Hi Guys.

I'm just wondering if it's possible to divide a house into two 2 bed apartments to maximise profits.
What are the pitfalls and hurdles that could make something like this difficult to achieve?

Would planningpermission potential block something like this etc.

Yes possible subject to planning approval and fire safety cert approval. Also a DAC is required.

Gumbo

76544567 wrote: »

I've done it a good few years ago now.
Fairly straightforward and not as expensive as you think.
You can avoid needing planning permission.
Only thing is I'll be selling g them in the next few months and have to sell them as a single unit.
Buyers can put them back the way they were or keep them as they are if they are renting them.

You CANNOT avoid planning permission.

Candlewick

I'd imagine plenty do this kind of thing, not bothering to apply for planning, which is all well and good, until something happens.....

James Bond Junior

I looked into buying something like this a few years ago. Solicitor wouldn't let me even entertain the idea unless I was a cash buyer and even at that was hesitant. Fire cert issues being the main barrier.

76544567

kceire wrote: »

You CANNOT avoid planning permission.

Do tell.
Because i did it.
Even discussed it with the planners before i did it.
Op, if you send me a pm I'll send you on the details. It's easier than you think. And you can run it by the planners if you like. They are fortunately easily approachable, compared to other departments.

Actually do run it by the planners, because listening g to random people like myself o. The internet telling.you they know everything isn't good. I'll tell you what to do and then you can go verify yourself if you decide to do it.
At least you will have details to start with from someone who has done it.

4ensic15

I was in a house a few weeks ago which was in 2 flats and had to be let as a single unit. It is generally a waste of time doing it. There are insurance complications as well as planning, extra property tax because of 2 dwellings, off-putting to potential purchasers and poorer tenant calibre.

myshirt

Is it a pre-63?

Gumbo

76544567 wrote: »

Do tell.
Because i did it.
Even discussed it with the planners before i did it.
Op, if you send me a pm I'll send you on the details. It's easier than you think. And you can run it by the planners if you like. They are fortunately easily approachable, compared to other departments.

Actually do run it by the planners, because listening g to random people like myself o. The internet telling.you they know everything isn't good. I'll tell you what to do and then you can go verify yourself if you decide to do it.
At least you will have details to start with from someone who has done it.

If its all legal, then please provide a link to the property or post the details on here instead of by PM?
You CANNOT convert an existing dwelling into 2 apartments without Planning, Fire Cert and DAC.

If you provide any info to the contrary, then I will eat humble pie and offer my apology publically on here.

lawred2

76544567 wrote: »

I've done it a good few years ago now.
Fairly straightforward and not as expensive as you think.
You can avoid needing planning permission.
Only thing is I'll be selling g them in the next few months and have to sell them as a single unit.
Buyers can put them back the way they were or keep them as they are if they are renting them.

There is surely no way you can avoid planning permission when making two dwellings out of one!?

myshirt

lawred2 wrote: »

There is surely no way you can avoid planning permission when making two dwellings out of one!?

Let the guy answer if it is a pre-63 first. Cool the heels, there might be a perfectly logical explanation here.

4ensic15

myshirt wrote: »

Let the guy answer if it is a pre-63 first. Cool the heels, there might be a perfectly logical explanation here.

The house does not seem to be currently divided. If not pre '63 is irrelevant.

myshirt

4ensic15 wrote: »

The house does not seem to be currently divided. If not pre '63 is irrelevant.

Are you sure? Or have you just googled it?

4ensic15

myshirt wrote: »

Are you sure? Or have you just googled it?

Googled what? The o/p talks about dividing a house, not continuing a division.

myshirt

4ensic15 wrote: »

Googled what? The o/p talks about dividing a house, not continuing a division.

Yes you are technically right, but if you have the experience, you will be exactly aware of what is possible with a pre-63.

4ensic15

myshirt wrote: »

Yes you are technically right, but if you have the experience, you will be exactly aware of what is possible with a pre-63.

What do you mean technically right? Even if the building itself is pre '63 it does not mean it can be converted now without planning. There are many dodgy declarations around but it is over 50 years since the 1964 cut off. it would be lunacy to try and fiddle one now.

athtrasna

Folks let's leave the modding to the mods. Report, don't retort etc. Thanks,
Mod

newgroom

I hope this helps but you definitely can't divide an existing house into flats without a fire safety certificate and a disability access certificate. I work for a Local Authority Building Control section and there's no ifs buts or maybes!
Now I can't speak for planning but I can't imagine you could do it without applying for planning but I won't swear on that.

Mr. Incognito

From a Planning Perspective it is not possible to divide a single dwelling into two apartments legally.

The 63 Act made it expressly illegal.

If it was divided before the Act then it was arguably exempted development but anything done subsequently is illegal pusuant to the 63 Act.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/75-of-landlords-in-dublin-who-split-houses-into-flats-did-so-illegally-1.1385515

Gumbo

newgroom wrote: »

I hope this helps but you definitely can't divide an existing house into flats without a fire safety certificate and a disability access certificate. I work for a Local Authority Building Control section and there's no ifs buts or maybes!
Now I can't speak for planning but I can't imagine you could do it without applying for planning but I won't swear on that.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

From a Planning Perspective it is not possible to divide a single dwelling into two apartments legally.

The 63 Act made it expressly illegal.

If it was divided before the Act then it was arguably exempted development but anything done subsequently is illegal pusuant to the 63 Act.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/75-of-landlords-in-dublin-who-split-houses-into-flats-did-so-illegally-1.1385515

+1
In post 3,3 and 10 I stated this.

76544567

Such misinformation on here.
I've done it. I've had it cleared, I'm now selling it.
I actually posted details about it previously on boards even.
Splitting a house for rental purposes is some. You add a kitchen and a bathroom if there is only one.
You the rent the house and whoever is renting it decides what i side doors they want to keep locked.

It is still one house. Now it is a rented house shared by two parties and they divvy it up how they like, but if you lay it out properly it's as simple as having two doors inside the main door and the people renting it can lock them or not as they please.

When you sell you can leave it as it is or put it back the way it was depending on your target market. It was a house, it remains a house. No planning required at all.

Gumbo

76544567 wrote: »

Such misinformation on here.
I've done it. I've had it cleared, I'm now selling it.
I actually posted details about it previously on boards even.
Splitting a house for rental purposes is some. You add a kitchen and a bathroom if there is only one.
You the rent the house and whoever is renting it decides what i side doors they want to keep locked.

It is still one house. Now it is a rented house shared by two parties and they divvy it up how they like, but if you lay it out properly it's as simple as having two doors inside the main door and the people renting it can lock them or not as they please.

When you sell you can leave it as it is or put it back the way it was depending on your target market. It was a house, it remains a house. No planning required at all.

76544567 wrote: »

Such misinformation on here.
I've done it. I've had it cleared, I'm now selling it.
I actually posted details about it previously on boards even.
Splitting a house for rental purposes is simple. You add a kitchen and a bathroom if there is only one.
You the rent the house and whoever is renting it decides what i side doors they want to keep locked.

It is still one house. Now it is a rented house shared by two parties and they divvy it up how they like, but if you lay it out properly it's as simple as having two doors inside the main door and the people renting it can lock them or not as they please.

When you sell you can leave it as it is or put it back the way it was depending on your target market. It was a house, it remains a house. No planning required at all.

So it's not legally 2 apartments.
You have one house and you've rented the rooms.

You are the one with misinformation on here I'm afraid.
If the house is currently for sale , is it one dwelling or 2 apartments?
My opinion is that it's one dwelling and you cannot legally sell it as 2 apartments at all.

Case closed then. Different situations then.

76544567

kceire wrote: »

So it's not legally 2 apartments.
You have one house and you've rented the rooms.

You are the one with misinformation on here I'm afraid.
If the house is currently for sale , is it one dwelling or 2 apartments?
My opinion is that it's one dwelling and you cannot legally sell it as 2 apartments at all.

Case closed then. Different situations then.

I already stated that i have to sell mine as one house, twice it think.
You are the one who was basically calling me a liar, based on eroneous assumptions.

It's the same situation as the op. Op wants to know can they split a house into two apartments and make more rent. I suggested it could be done. And it can. You are the one that has the blinkered view that there is only one way of skinning a cat and got all righteous about it.

If the op wants more info they can email me and i will inform them exactly what to be checking out and what will work best for them. They can then do their own research armed with choices.

Gumbo

76544567 wrote: »

I already stated that i have to sell mine as one house, twice it think.
You are the one who was basically calling me a liar, based on eroneous assumptions.

It's the same situation as the op. Op wants to know can they split a house into two apartments and make more rent. I suggested it could be done. And it can. You are the one that has the blinkered view that there is only one way of skinning a cat and got all righteous about it.

If the op wants more info they can email me and i will inform them exactly what to be checking out and what will work best for them. They can then do their own research armed with choices.

The OP asked could he create 2 apartments. Straight and simple, answer is no, not with out planning.

If the op wants to rent rooms to separate people. Straight simple answer, yes he can, just like you have done.

The creation of an additional kitchen or bathroom for that matter is. It a planning issue but it is a building regulation issue, specifically fire safety and ventilation but those requirements are easily met once the correct work is done. At his stage the house is not spilt into apartments. It's still in house.

I have no blinkered view, your way may be an illegal or legal way.....I'll let you decide that, but the fact that you have to sell your house as one dwelling proves my point so you haven't done what the op wants to do.


Split a house in 2 apartments, planning, fire cert and DAC required. Full stop. And if you think that's wrong then I challenge you to show us a legal example.

You may not be able to officially make two properties but surely you can for all intents and purposes make two apartments, rented seperately and the only connection being possibly one front door to a small common hallway but then everything else seperate.

I'd assume this is what's done when you see place as having address 1a and 1b etc. The rent could also be higher than renting it as one house.

76544567

kceire wrote: »

The OP asked could he create 2 apartments. Straight and simple, answer is no, not with out planning.

If the op wants to rent rooms to separate people. Straight simple answer, yes he can, just like you have done.

The creation of an additional kitchen or bathroom for that matter is. It a planning issue but it is a building regulation issue, specifically fire safety and ventilation but those requirements are easily met once the correct work is done. At his stage the house is not spilt into apartments. It's still in house.

I have no blinkered view, your way may be an illegal or legal way.....I'll let you decide that, but the fact that you have to sell your house as one dwelling proves my point so you haven't done what the op wants to do.


Split a house in 2 apartments, planning, fire cert and DAC required. Full stop. And if you think that's wrong then I challenge you to show us a legal example.

Dear god. And you are still at it.
You are making mountains out of molehills and finding problems where there aren't any just because you can't take being wrong. Let it go.

Let's just ask the op what he actually meant and will my solution work for him? If he says he would rather you help him get tied up in knots than take the simple solution then you win. I'm willing to end the argument now and let the op have his info and he can do with it what he chooses. I've given him options, you've given him roadblocks.

Gumbo

Enrique Early Gymnast wrote: »

You may not be able to officially make two properties but surely you can for all intents and purposes make two apartments, rented seperately and the only connection being possibly one front door to a small common hallway but then everything else seperate.

I'd assume this is what's done when you see place as having address 1a and 1b etc. The rent could also be higher than renting it as one house.

It's not as simple as this. There are regulations around it and if there's split occupancy then it's class as apartments so planning, fire Cert and Dac required.

What you describe would technically be illegal and god forbid a fire was to break out, I wonder who they would chase for legal action.....the owner.

76544567 wrote: »

Dear god. And you are still at it.
You are making mountains out of molehills and finding problems where there aren't any just because you can't take being wrong. Let it go.

Let's just ask the op what he actually meant and will my solution work for him? If he says he would rather you help him get tied up in knots than take the simple solution then you win. I'm willing to end the argument now and let the op have his info and he can do with it what he chooses. I've given him options, you've given him roadblocks.

Dear god, are still giving illegal advice. I've highlighted the correct procedure involved, you have highlight how he can break the law.

We shall let the op decide on how he wants to proceed.

I am not wrong. If I am wrong, please provide evidence, as this is the third time I've asked for evidence and the second time that I have stated I will apologise on thread if I am wrong.

The fact of the matter is that I am involved in the enforcement of these types of conversions every SINGLE day, and while you may get away with it now, eventually you run the risk of been caught. And when you are caught, most landlords convert back to single dwelling, carry out the required works or sell up like what you are doing.

Best of luck.

Paulw

Mod Note: Ok, enough of this. If the OP wants the thread re-opened, they can PM a mod.