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Another 8th amendment question rape/incest!

  • 18-03-2017 7:25pm
    #1
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,219 ✭✭✭✭


    This is something I've often wondered. I don't really want to start a debate on the subject.
    If Ireland had a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment and replace it with a new amendment which aloud abortion only in cases of rape/incest.
    If this referendum passed abortion would be legal in cases of rape/incest.
    Would this mean a woman could walk into a doctor and request an abortion because she was raped even if she wasn't.
    If this was introduced wouldn't the doctor be taking peoples word for it because of it being hard to prove. I know upon examination a doctor could tell sometimes if a sexual assault took place. However if this was left go a few weeks this would be harder to tell.
    How would this repeal work so?
    I don't mean to cause offence to anybody with this post!


Comments

  • #2
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,733 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    I don't really want to start a debate on the subject.
    But you started a thread!
    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    If Ireland had a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment and replace it with a new amendment which aloud abortion only in cases of rape/incest.
    Only in cases of rape/incest? And nothing else, like risk to the life of the woman?

    Or as well as what's currently covered in the 8th?

    Anyway, in Poland for example, if a woman wants to access abortion because of rape, the police will be consulted to see if she has reported a rape. They don't just take her word for it. I don't know how widespread that procedure is across different countries.


  • #3
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,901 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    This is something I've often wondered. I don't really want to start a debate on the subject.
    If Ireland had a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment and replace it with a new amendment which aloud abortion only in cases of rape/incest.
    If this referendum passed abortion would be legal in cases of rape/incest.
    Would this mean a woman could walk into a doctor and request an abortion because she was raped even if she wasn't.
    If this was introduced wouldn't the doctor be taking peoples word for it because of it being hard to prove. I know upon examination a doctor could tell sometimes if a sexual assault took place. However if this was left go a few weeks this would be harder to tell.
    How would this repeal work so?
    I don't mean to cause offence to anybody with this post!

    AS rape and incest is illegal I imagine that the allegation would have to be reported and false claims would carry penalties.


  • #4
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    It would be very hard to prove.

    I suppose if a woman presented at a satu unit or garden station in a distressed state saying she had been raped and then weeks later discovered she was pregnant then that would be valid.

    Obviously anyone under the age of consent would qualify because it's statutory rape.

    But most rape occurs in relationships, between people who know each other. It would be a he said/she said. How could it be proven ?


  • #5
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,443 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    This is something I've often wondered. I don't really want to start a debate on the subject.
    If Ireland had a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment and replace it with a new amendment which aloud abortion only in cases of rape/incest.
    If this referendum passed abortion would be legal in cases of rape/incest.
    Would this mean a woman could walk into a doctor and request an abortion because she was raped even if she wasn't.
    If this was introduced wouldn't the doctor be taking peoples word for it because of it being hard to prove. I know upon examination a doctor could tell sometimes if a sexual assault took place. However if this was left go a few weeks this would be harder to tell.
    How would this repeal work so?
    I don't mean to cause offence to anybody with this post!


    Just going on the scenario you presented, the answer is yes, she could. But women can do that already anyway, and they can claim they are going to take their own lives, and even then after a rigorous assessment, they still may or may not have a termination, and even then a termination of the pregnancy may not be done quite the way the woman would have expected, or wanted.

    This is why there's no real point in talking about a referendum at this stage, because we have no idea what we would be asked to vote on, and after that then we would have no say whatsoever in any draft legislation. Politicians and legislators won't make it so easy at all as it is in the UK to avail of an abortion.


  • #6
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    osarusan wrote: »
    ...
    Anyway, in Poland for example, if a woman wants to access abortion because of rape, the police will be consulted to see if she has reported a rape. They don't just take her word for it. I don't know how widespread that procedure is across different countries.

    A very good way to find out if it's legit.

    But then again and I know this is a crazy thing to say but I wouldn't be shocked to hear certain women going into a police station to report a fake rape that "happened" 6-8 weeks ago. All because they got up the duff and want to abort.

    Some weirdos / utter liars in this world.


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  • #7
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #8
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    A very good way to find out if it's legit.

    But then again and I know this is a crazy thing to say but I wouldn't be shocked to hear certain women going into a police station to report a fake rape that "happened" 6-8 weeks ago. All because they got up the duff and want to abort.

    Some weirdos / utter liars in this world.

    To be fair you would have no way of knowing if it was fake or not. Rape victims don't always go straight to police. And those who do aren't always genuine either.


  • #9
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,731 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    What difference would it make if the pregnancy was a result of a rape? Surely the abortion ban is to protect the right to life​ of the unborn and not to punish women for being careless. I don't really see how you can hold an opinion that a foetus is a human with full rights unless its father was a rapist, in which case it forfeits them.


  • #10
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,219 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    osarusan wrote: »
    But you started a thread!


    Only in cases of rape/incest? And nothing else, like risk to the life of the woman?

    Or as well as what's currently covered in the 8th?

    Anyway, in Poland for example, if a woman wants to access abortion because of rape, the police will be consulted to see if she has reported a rape. They don't just take her word for it. I don't know how widespread that procedure is across different countries.

    I started to thread to know where it would stand legally and I didn't want a debate about the 8th amendment
    In Poland does that mean so people have to report the rape to the police in order to get an abortion?
    ted1 wrote: »
    AS rape and incest is illegal I imagine that the allegation would have to be reported and false claims would carry penalties.

    Wouldn't it be hard to prove if the allegation was false?

    Thanks for the replies.


  • #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    We have the right to travel, so the ban on abortion is totally ineffectual. People can use Ryanair and go away to deal with the problem.

    Those with means can travel.
    Those on lower means, often the most vulnerable in our society may not be able to afford to travel.


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  • #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ted1 wrote: »
    AS rape and incest is illegal I imagine that the allegation would have to be reported and false claims would carry penalties.

    But then the state would be forcing victims to report the crime against them. A lot of victims don't wish/ are not mentally capable of reporting the crime.
    And they should not be forced to.


  • #13
    222233
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    ted1 wrote: »
    AS rape and incest is illegal I imagine that the allegation would have to be reported and false claims would carry penalties.

    That's unlikely I am not aware of any false claim here or elsewhere where there has been a prosecution. The alleged is usually just left with nothing but a sorry about the inconvenience and ruining your life..


  • #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Do we really need another 8th amendment thread?


  • #15
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    ted1 wrote: »
    AS rape and incest is illegal I imagine that the allegation would have to be reported and false claims would carry penalties.

    I don't know about that. I think a doctor would have to accept it if a woman who claimed to have been raped did not want to press charges against the perpetrator, or make it known to anybody at all that she had been raped. It happens a lot out of shame and fear of judgement, people will see you differently afterwards etc.


  • #16
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    If Ireland had a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment and replace it with a new amendment which aloud abortion only in cases of rape/incest.

    Jesus H. Christ. It's Cheryl Cole-Tweedy-Ferspandex!

    It's her body it's her right - but that tattoo is still totally ****ing chavvy


  • #17
    scoey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 219 ✭✭scoey


    Many people disagree with abortion because they can't make the arbitrary distinction that pro abortion "pro choice" people do between a baby and a "foetus" and killing and "terminating".
    So in the case of rape the logical response for such a person has to be that killing an innocent in order to rectify a crime is immoral.

    In the case of rape making a woman pregnant, the rapist is the criminal and should be punished harshly.
    To say that it is ok to kill the innocent unborn child due to someone elses crime is morally repugnant.


  • #18
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,158 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Yes and that isn't an effective solution at all.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #19
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,158 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    scoey wrote: »
    To say that it is ok to kill the innocent unborn child due to someone elses crime is morally repugnant.

    To force a woman to go through pregnancy and birth in those circumstances is morally repugnant. Or indeed child - remember Miss X?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #20
    scoey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 219 ✭✭scoey


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    scoey wrote: »
    To say that it is ok to kill the innocent unborn child due to someone elses crime is morally repugnant.

    To force a woman to go through pregnancy and birth in those circumstances is morally repugnant. Or indeed child - remember Miss X?


    I have laid out the simple logic behind my stance. It is based on the belief that the unborn child is a third party, a life innocent of the crime of rape and killing that unborn child is morally wrong.

    Please lay out the logic behind your stance so that I may better understand it.
    What do you believe an unborn child (the potential victim of an abortion) to be?
    Following on from that answer, please explain why it is ok to kill whatever you have decided the answer to the previous question is?


  • #21
    Ben Gadot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭Ben Gadot


    Without stating where I stand in the debate, either they make it legal across the board or keep it the way it currently is.

    I'm not interested in seeing people constantly wrestle with legalisation open to interpretation and have the media "expose" the weekly scandal that will arise from it (while trying to keep the gleeful look off their face while reporting on it).


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