CP install price gouging

goz83

I have a Rolec CP waiting for installation. It's a very simple install with the CP being a run of about 8m of cable in through an enclosed side entrance.

A man my Dad knows was to install it, but it turns out he is not RECI, so ruled him out at the 11th hour. A friend of my Sister has someone lined up, but he's not available for a couple of weeks and I am wanting the install done sooner. I rang a local sparks yesterday and emailed the details and he came back with a quote of almost €900 !!! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the high end cost was up to €1,000 with the sparks supplying the equipment. So I was expecting a price of less than half what that quote was.

Can anyone recommend a sparks in Dublin who doesn't consider a CP as some sort of golden hour job?

peposhi

PM. I have a lad who did mine. He is Laois, but might be interested to do yours.

listermint

goz83 wrote: »

I have a Rolec CP waiting for installation. It's a very simple install with the CP being a run of about 8m of cable in through an enclosed side entrance.

A man my Dad knows was to install it, but it turns out he is not RECI, so ruled him out at the 11th hour. A friend of my Sister has someone lined up, but he's not available for a couple of weeks and I am wanting the install done sooner. I rang a local sparks yesterday and emailed the details and he came back with a quote of almost €900 !!! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the high end cost was up to €1,000 with the sparks supplying the equipment. So I was expecting a price of less than half what that quote was.

Can anyone recommend a sparks in Dublin who doesn't consider a CP as some sort of golden hour job?

Just a query , why are you requiring reci? Reci is required for major electrical works. Extending a charging point from a mains board with correct MCB isn't major works it might as well be a spur....

KCross

The €900 must have been to include the CP as well! The work is basically to install an outdoor socket. He couldnt possibly charge €900 for that.

If you supply the CP and the spark supplies the cable and RCBO it shouldnt cost much more than €200.

Calahonda52

listermint wrote: »

Just a query , why are you requiring reci? Reci is required for major electrical works. Extending a charging point from a mains board with correct MCB isn't major works it might as well be a spur....

I read this differently, let me check.

Getting some air time here, started by the OP:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057714522

regs here:
http://www.cer.ie/docs/000161/cer13147-restricted-electrical-works-decision-paper.pdf

For reference, here is the rig in question
https://evonestop.co.uk/shop/wallpods-ev/wallpodev-multimode-6amp-j1772-5m-tethered-lead-type-1/

Gumbo

Where are you based Goz?
I'll ask my sparks today if you want.

When I told him during the week about doing mine, he didn't flinch when I said I needed cable capable of 32a.

goz83

peposhi wrote: »

PM. I have a lad who did mine. He is Laois, but might be interested to do yours.

Super. I may get that when I collect the mats today.

listermint wrote: »

Just a query , why are you requiring reci? Reci is required for major electrical works. Extending a charging point from a mains board with correct MCB isn't major works it might as well be a spur....

Calahonda52 linked my other thread already. Seems it does need to be a RECI install.

KCross wrote: »

The €900 must have been to include the CP as well! The work is basically to install an outdoor socket. He couldnt possibly charge €900 for that.

If you supply the CP and the spark supplies the cable and RCBO it shouldnt cost much more than €200.

I sent the very same question in my reply....but I told him in my email I would supply the CP. My CP has a built in RCBO. The only extra I need is the priority switch afaik.

kceire wrote: »

Where are you based Goz?
I'll ask my sparks today if you want.

When I told him during the week about doing mine, he didn't flinch when I said I needed cable capable of 32a.

I'm in D13. Happy to give the work to someone who isn't creaming it.

Calahonda52

goz83 wrote: »

Calahonda52 linked my other thread already. Seems it does need to be a RECI install.

This is an interesting issue as some of the RECs over in the elec forum say they would need to rip it all out and start again, which raises the problem where, say as part of a future proofing wiring reno, you bury say 6 sq or 10 sq SWA and leave the tails at the CU and the CP location.

It is a question for me at the mo as when the ESB fitted the Dual meter, the original 1968 install is missing an earth from the CU to the ESB main fuse which essentially provides an earth back via the ESB neutral, and supplements the earth bar.
So I have a safety letter, needs a REC to fit the earth, so is some dude going to suggest he rips out all my wiring and start from scratch before he can issue a cert for a 250 mm of 10 sq earth wire.

I agree it needs a REC because the RCBO needs to be on the CU or adjacent to it on a sub distribution board so the cover needs taking off the CU....

Shefwedfan

I got a price yesterday of 330 plus VAT for 16 amp

Maybe 50 quid extra is 32 amp

Seems a bit high

Calahonda52

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I got a price yesterday of 330 plus VAT for 16 amp

Maybe 50 quid extra is 32 amp

Seems a bit high

Two or more questions if I may.
What currency is the 330, since you mention quid?
Secondly, what is make to which you are referring to and does this include supply and install or is it install only or buy only?

Gumbo

Am I missing something here?

My Esb meter is in my gable wall in my side entrance.
My sparks connects the charge point to this meter yeah? Not back to the internal fuse board within the house?

I can then charge in front garden.

Shefwedfan

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Two or more questions if I may.
What currency is the 330, since you mention quid?
Secondly, what is make to which you are referring to and does this include supply and install or is it install only or buy only?

Currency is the mighty euro

This is just install. I am getting the charge point with car.

Shefwedfan

kceire wrote: »

Am I missing something here?

My Esb meter is in my gable wall in my side entrance.
My sparks connects the charge point to this meter yeah? Not back to the internal fuse board within the house?

I can then charge in front garden.

This is what I want to do...I posted on another thread

If I could put charge point directly above the meter box it would be perfect

Gumbo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Currency is the mighty euro

This is just install. I am getting the charge point with car.

330 seems expensive to install.
The problem here is that sparks are starting to realise that EV revolution is about to begin and they are basing their prices from what the contractors charge the Esb to do it in my opinion.

At the end of the day, it's a glorified outdoor socket they are installing.

Calahonda52

kceire wrote: »

Am I missing something here?

My Esb meter is in my gable wall in my side entrance.
My sparks connects the charge point to this meter yeah? Not back to the internal fuse board within the house?

I can then charge in front garden.

Missing plenty:D:D

The CU [aka internal fuse board] is fed by a [most likely] 16Sq phase and return from the meter.
It may have an earth, 10 sq, as well, as discussed before

The CU has a fused breaker on the phase, 63A
the rest of the house comes from the load side of this breaker.

The charge point needs supply from the CU, on the load side of the 63A fuse.
Have you a garage or is it all just hidden from the meter box to the CU.

The answer to this question may provide other opportunities.

Water John

I think he has to come through your fuse board. But I'm not a sparks.

listermint

Well reci electricians are going to tell you that you need reci electricians.

But what are the facts about it .

That's the nuts of the argument.

As indicated above it's an outdoor socket with higher rating requirements but that's all it is.

Shefwedfan

What I would really like is https://evonestop.co.uk/shop/wallpods-ev/wallpodev-multimode-iec62196-5m-tethered-lead-type-2-16amp/

Simple fact I would have outside plug included......

Calahonda52

listermint wrote: »

Well reci electricians are going to tell you that you need reci electricians.

But what are the facts about it .

That's the nuts of the argument.

As indicated above it's an outdoor socket with higher rating requirements but that's all it is.

As posted before:

http://www.cer.ie/docs/000161/cer13147-restricted-electrical-works-decision-paper.pdf

The issue is that the supply must come from the CU or a sub distribution board with a RCBO so it just can't be spiced into a lighting circuit.

The RCBO can be in the CP but will require a breaker on the board so same difference, cover needs taking off the CU hence in breach of the regs

goz83

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What I would really like is https://evonestop.co.uk/shop/wallpods-ev/wallpodev-multimode-iec62196-5m-tethered-lead-type-2-16amp/

Simple fact I would have outside plug included......

That's the one I ordered (the 32A version). It's a big chunky thing.

Shefwedfan

goz83 wrote: »

That's the one I ordered (the 32A version). It's a big chunky thing.

Looks a great job alright

I would go 32 amp as well. I am getting a charger bundled with car, it is 16 amp so not sure if I should just go 32 amp now and do it once and right

goz83

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Looks a great job alright

I would go 32 amp as well. I am getting a charger bundled with car, it is 16 amp so not sure if I should just go 32 amp now and do it once and right

You said it

BoatMad

The situation is simple , a 16A unit " could be " fed from a spur , but a 32A is definitely direct from the DB/CU . Any mods of whatever nature to the CU requires a RECI sparks

just ask the sparks to quote to fit a 32A commando socket outside at the appropriate position protected by the appropriate RCBO
( can't remember the rcbo type )

You can then fit the connector yourself and mount the EVSE. ( or come along with the unit and say " you wouldn't mind putting a plug on that -thanks)

Avoid getting quotes for " ejectric car charging installs " this results is ca-Ching sounds

Sparks are hearing " EV charging " and quoting high cause most haven't a clue what you are talking about and are covering themselves.

You can cut the price further by installing the EVSE and running the cable , you just need a RECI to do the board mods.

goz83

BoatMad wrote: »

The situation is simple , a 16A unit " could be " fed from a spur , but a 32A is definitely direct from the DB/CU . Any mods of whatever nature to the CU requires a RECI sparks

just ask the sparks to quote to fit a 32A commando socket outside at the appropriate position protected by the appropriate RCBO
( can't remember the rcbo type )

You can then fit the connector yourself and mount the EVSE. ( or come along with the unit and say " you wouldn't mind putting a plug on that -thanks)

Avoid getting quotes for " ejectric car charging installs " this results is ca-Ching sounds

Sparks are hearing " EV charging " and quoting high cause most haven't a clue what you are talking about and are covering themselves.

You can cut the price further by installing the EVSE and running the cable , you just need a RECI to do the board mods.

Pretty much exactly what I was suggesting with regards to a dry install, but it raised a couple of heckles when I said it was a simple job.

Calahonda52

goz83 wrote: »

Pretty much exactly what I was suggesting with regards to a dry install, but it raised a couple of heckles when I said it was a simple job.

:DYou got away light with heckles, I usual raise hackles:D

Gumbo

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Missing plenty:D:D

The CU [aka internal fuse board] is fed by a [most likely] 16Sq phase and return from the meter.
It may have an earth, 10 sq, as well, as discussed before

The CU has a fused breaker on the phase, 63A
the rest of the house comes from the load side of this breaker.

The charge point needs supply from the CU, on the load side of the 63A fuse.
Have you a garage or is it all just hidden from the meter box to the CU.

The answer to this question may provide other opportunities.

This explains more now.
My fuse board is in the hall in the opposite side of the house to the external ESB meter.

So I have to run a cable from the fuse board to the external point.

BoatMad

listermint wrote: »

Well reci electricians are going to tell you that you need reci electricians.

But what are the facts about it .

That's the nuts of the argument.

As indicated above it's an outdoor socket with higher rating requirements but that's all it is.

just to confirm , any mods that require distribution board access, need a RECI sparks. A 32A " outside plug" will require CU mods

Mope

Sorry if question is stupid, but are you talking about getting spark who is not contracted by ESB to do the free CP installation when you buy new car? Or all this is about people who bough second hand car?

I'd say if someone finds good reasonable spark which does the job - entire forum will use him.

goz83

Mope wrote: »

Sorry if question is stupid, but are you talking about getting spark who is not contracted by ESB to do the free CP installation when you buy new car? Or all this is about people who bough second hand car?

I'd say if someone finds good reasonable spark which does the job - entire forum will use him.

If that question is for me (the op), then it'a about a second hand car.....so not an esb job.

n97 mini

Is RECI not just an association for electricians like the National Taxi Drivers Union is to taxi drivers? ie are RECI members in any way more knowledgeable than other properly qualified electricians?

Calahonda52

n97 mini wrote: »

Is RECI not just an association for electricians like the National Taxi Drivers Union is to taxi drivers? ie are RECI members in any way more knowledgeable than other properly qualified electricians?

RECI is recognised by CER
http://www.cer.ie/document-detail/Press-Release-CER-Appoints-RECI-to-Operate-the-Safe-Electric-Scheme/1057/7866

which gives them a big stick
http://www.safeelectric.ie

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

Is RECI not just an association for electricians like the National Taxi Drivers Union is to taxi drivers? ie are RECI members in any way more knowledgeable than other properly qualified electricians?

I'd say the taxi union is a bad analogy.

I'd agree though that a RECI isnt any more knowledgeable than other qualified electricians.

However, using a RECI for certain jobs, AFAIK, is law. Im sure also if your house burned down due to wiring done by a non-RECI would result in the insurance company squirming out of their responsibilities.

BoatMad

However, using a RECI for certain jobs, AFAIK, is law. Im sure also if your house burned down due to wiring done by a non-RECI would result in the insurance company squirming out of their responsibilities.

not in general , not unless negligence could be established, after all you have insurance for precisely the reason that something might go wrong

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

not in general , not unless negligence could be established, after all you have insurance for precisely the reason that something might go wrong

Maybe. I just wouldnt trust insurance companies though. A bit like if you tick the box that says you have an alarm and then you get robbed but didnt have the alarm on they can penalise you for that and say you are partly negligent.

Hiring a non-RECI could result in a similar strategy... I am just surmising here. I havent seen it first hand... just a general mistrust of insurance companies.


On the regulation side.... you are not supposed to let a non-RECI at your Consumer unit.... is that law or just best practice?

BoatMad

Maybe. I just wouldnt trust insurance companies though. A bit like if you tick the box that says you have an alarm and then you get robbed but didnt have the alarm on they can penalise you for that and say you are partly negligent.

which is why I specifically tell them I have an alarm , but insure it as if I dont ( the difference was 15 euros !!)


The alarm issue is specifically stated in policies that look for discounts for having an alarm, it not really the same as the issue you're discussing

Calahonda52

Law:

from here: http://www.safeelectric.ie/restrictedWorks.pdf

My bolding

CER decision on scope of Restricted Electrical Works2;
The implementation of this decision will mean that all Controlled Electrical Works3, as currently defined, in a domestic setting can only be carried out by a REC. There will be no legal exemption for the owner/occupier. However, minor electrical work will remain outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works.
Restricted Electrical Works will cover:
1. the installation, commissioning, inspection and testing of a new Electrical Installation which is fixed, fastened or mounted or otherwise secured so that its position does not change and requires connection or re-connection to the distribution network or the transmission network, as the case may be;
2. the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case may be;
3. the installation or replacement of one or more circuits in an Electrical Installation, including the installation of one or more additional protective devices for such circuits on a Distribution Board; or
4. the inspection, testing or certification of, or reporting on, existing Electrical Installations covered by Chapter 62 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations;
in a Domestic Property.

KCross

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Law:

from here: http://www.safeelectric.ie/restrictedWorks.pdf

My bolding

CER decision on scope of Restricted Electrical Works2;
The implementation of this decision will mean that all Controlled Electrical Works3, as currently defined, in a domestic setting can only be carried out by a REC. There will be no legal exemption for the owner/occupier. However, minor electrical work will remain outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works.
Restricted Electrical Works will cover:
1. the installation, commissioning, inspection and testing of a new Electrical Installation which is fixed, fastened or mounted or otherwise secured so that its position does not change and requires connection or re-connection to the distribution network or the transmission network, as the case may be;
2. the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case may be;
3. the installation or replacement of one or more circuits in an Electrical Installation, including the installation of one or more additional protective devices for such circuits on a Distribution Board; or
4. the inspection, testing or certification of, or reporting on, existing Electrical Installations covered by Chapter 62 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations;
in a Domestic Property.

This answers the question for me....

This paper outlines CER’s decision on the scope of Restricted Electrical Works. This decision will be implemented from 1st October 2013. This will mean that it will be illegal for a non-Registered Electrical Contractor (REC) to carry out most electrical work in domestic premises.

Calahonda52

The emphasis was on the domestic market.
see this other text, again my bolding

The CER has appointed the Register of Electrical Contractors of Ireland (RECI) to operate the Safe Electric Scheme from January 2016 until end of 2022.

What does this mean?
With effect from 1 January 2016 an electrical contractor wishing to be registered can only register with RECI as a Registered Electrical Contractor (REC).
It is illegal for unregistered electrical contractors to carry out Restricted Electrical Works.
It is recommended that only RECs undertake Controlled Electrical Works.
Only RECs may undertake Restricted Electrical Works
RECs should continue to certify all Controlled and Restricted Electrical Works using a Completion Certificate.
Requirements for registration are outlined on RECIs website here.
RECI will use the Safe Electric brand as the customer and REC facing brand from 2016
All RECs will be required to display the Safe Electric logo on any vehicle that identifies them as an electrical contractor from 2016.
Safe Electric contacted all RECs regarding the registration process and the purchase of Completion Certificates. All RECs that were previously registered with ECSSA and have not yet registered with Safe Electric are advised to contact Safe Electric as soon as possible to complete the registration process.

The CER is committed to ensuring the transition of RECs to a single body is as seamless as possible and will work closely with RECI and all industry stakeholders to ensure that this is the case.

slicedpanman

Calahonda52 wrote: »

It is illegal for unregistered electrical contractors to carry out Restricted Electrical Works.
It is recommended that only RECs undertake Controlled Electrical Works.

Anyone got a definition of Restricted vs. Controlled?

Gumbo

My sparks quoted €350 plus VAT for 32A install of home
Charger that I have supplied.

That's him connecting directly to the ESB meter with an 80A RCM and then a 40A RCBO to the charge point.

KCross

kceire wrote: »

My sparks quoted €350 plus VAT for 32A install of home
Charger that I have supplied.

That's him connecting directly to the ESB meter with an 80A RCM and then a 40A RCBO to the charge point.

You are paying extra for that 80A switch.

You have to weigh the cost of that against the cost of the longer cable and labour back to the main CU.

Did he quote you at all for a run back to the main CU?
Maybe run the cable yourself and let him do the rest. I dont think he could charge you 350 then.

Gumbo

KCross wrote: »

You are paying extra for that 80A switch.

You have to weigh the cost of that against the cost of the longer cable and labour back to the main CU.

Did he quote you at all for a run back to the main CU?
Maybe run the cable yourself and let him do the rest. I dont think he could charge you 350 then.

He didn't quite to the CU as it would be impossible in my situation without opening up internal finishes.

That's the price to the public that he told me to tell another person that asked for a quote.

When I'm doing mine, it will be while
I'm extending the front of the house in June so I'll run the cable from the CH to the side entrance then.

I just hope i can make it till June on the public/work/granny cables.

listermint

Will be moving the meter box as its existing position will be internal to the house due to new wall going up.

ESB will have to commission the move , is there anything worthwhile doing at this point to future proof an EV as will be seriously considering on next car.

goz83

listermint wrote: »

Will be moving the meter box as its existing position will be internal to the house due to new wall going up.

ESB will have to commission the move , is there anything worthwhile doing at this point to future proof an EV as will be seriously considering on next car.

Have a 32A external socket put in place (or just the wiring for it) where you would have a Charge Point installed. If you have an electric shower, you might need a priority switch installed. That should keep you future proofed.

BoatMad

Calahonda52 wrote: »

The emphasis was on the domestic market.
see this other text, again my bolding

The CER has appointed the Register of Electrical Contractors of Ireland (RECI) to operate the Safe Electric Scheme from January 2016 until end of 2022.

What does this mean?
With effect from 1 January 2016 an electrical contractor wishing to be registered can only register with RECI as a Registered Electrical Contractor (REC).
It is illegal for unregistered electrical contractors to carry out Restricted Electrical Works.
It is recommended that only RECs undertake Controlled Electrical Works.
Only RECs may undertake Restricted Electrical Works
RECs should continue to certify all Controlled and Restricted Electrical Works using a Completion Certificate.
Requirements for registration are outlined on RECIs website here.
RECI will use the Safe Electric brand as the customer and REC facing brand from 2016
All RECs will be required to display the Safe Electric logo on any vehicle that identifies them as an electrical contractor from 2016.
Safe Electric contacted all RECs regarding the registration process and the purchase of Completion Certificates. All RECs that were previously registered with ECSSA and have not yet registered with Safe Electric are advised to contact Safe Electric as soon as possible to complete the registration process.

The CER is committed to ensuring the transition of RECs to a single body is as seamless as possible and will work closely with RECI and all industry stakeholders to ensure that this is the case.

Interesting , the only legal sanction in the legislation is for anyone that is not RECI then representing themselves as RECI or certifying the installation as REI approved. Thee is actual no sanction for just doing the work !!!

Calahonda52

BoatMad wrote: »

Interesting , the only legal sanction in the legislation is for anyone that is not RECI then representing themselves as RECI or certifying the installation as REI approved. Thee is actual no sanction for just doing the work !!!

RECI also succeeded in shafting the ECTI [ http://www.etci.ie/index.php ]

who are going out of business on 30th.
The Tech Spec work is now being done by NSAI so I can see how this is going to end up:

Water John

Lister, I am not au fait, tho it has been discussed on threads, to up the fuse on the ESB side, at the same time as moving the meter.