Aer Lingus and the 767

Captain_Crash

I was driving past the airport today looking at a DL 764, and it got me thinking about EI and the 767. As I'm sure many already know, EI received two new 767's in '91, which were immediately leased out to AM, EI-CAL and EI-CAM.

Then in the mid 90's following pressure from DL and CO, Boeing developed the 764. However; they never marketed the aircraft on any great scale, as they felt it would take away from 777 sales, which was the new kid on the block at the time. In-fact, many of the 777's systems ect, (incl the glass cockpit and raked wingtips) were used on the 764.

This got me thinking, had Boeing decided to push sales of the 764, might EI have been convinced to stick with them instead of switching to Airbus? The capacity of the A330 plus the deal they got from Airbus made it an obvious choice, but the 764 was of a similar capacity and economics, and EI at the time were a Boeing airline. Part of me thinks that it was Boeing's order to lose and they decided to push airlines to the 777 instead, which EI were never going to order. (Boeing made the right call of course, I'm just speaking hypothetically)

Locker10a

Very interesting point, had EI not been so persuaded by the A330 from Airbus at the time they would probably be a very different airline today fleetwise.
I agree the 764 would have been a great fit for EI and had that happened they'd probably still be flying 737s today as their euro fleet!!
I could imagine today they'd have 737-7/800's, 764 and perhaps also some 787's

duskyjoe

uttterly disagree.......the 763's they got were leased at rip off rates and left a sour taste with AL. At the time circa 1993 AL's 747 100's were savagely expensive to maintain and pure gas guzzlers. The 767 300 at the time were very much in demand and AL needed an option. The 764 was a pig and ever wonder why it never prospered with limited production? Airbus offered the option and ultimately with deals ensued the short haul fleet were to follow suit. The A330 has been and continues to be a wonderful aircraft for AL. The 350 and 787 economics are so much better again but AL being such a tiny airline compared to the big fish, the 330 for the mo seems to fit their demands.

Captain_Crash

duskyjoe wrote: »

The 764 was a pig and ever wonder why it never prospered with limited production?

We'll that was a business decision by Boeing not to actively market it so as not to hurt 777 sales. It remains a very capable, if not niche aircraft.

My point is if Boeing had stuck with the 764 and poured resources into selling it, could EI have been a customer, I think they could have.. but Boeing opted put their egg's into the 777 shaped basket instead so the sales pitch was never made.

billy few mates

duskyjoe wrote: »

uttterly disagree.......the 763's they got were leased at rip off rates and left a sour taste with AL. At the time circa 1993 AL's 747 100's were savagely expensive to maintain and pure gas guzzlers. The 767 300 at the time were very much in demand and AL needed an option. The 764 was a pig and ever wonder why it never prospered with limited production? Airbus offered the option and ultimately with deals ensued the short haul fleet were to follow suit. The A330 has been and continues to be a wonderful aircraft for AL. The 350 and 787 economics are so much better again but AL being such a tiny airline compared to the big fish, the 330 for the mo seems to fit their demands.

Who's fault was that...?

duskyjoe

billy few mates wrote: »

Who's fault was that...?

Absolutely, they only had themselves to blame. A total mess. Re the 764, AL weren't going to buy a slow seller that wasn't been actively marketed by Boeing. The A330 couldn't have come at a better time as the 74's were on their last legs. A330 perf figs were far superior than the 764 and with Airbus doing handstands in the corridors of Toulouse that AL were to be a launch ETOPs customer for the 330 I'm sure the costings were beyond competitive. Hard to believe that was back in 1993 and here we are today in 2017 and the A330 still in production. It goes to show what an incredible aircraft the A330 has been and remains

Hotblack Desiato

Seems the 767-400 was a bit of a ground gripper, takeoff run at MTOW way in excess of the runway at DUB. Maybe OK for US east coast but perhaps Aer Lingus had west coast ambitions even then. Similar enough passenger capacity to a 330 but much smaller wing, less thrust, less fuel capacity.

Also Aer Lingus started flying the 330 in 1994, the -400 didn't fly until 2000. It's surprising that Boeing built it at all at that stage, a stretch of a stretch of an 80s twinjet.

Captain_Crash

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

the -400 didn't fly until 2000

Ahhhh, something I didn't consider in my initial musings on the topic!

arubex

Captain_Crash wrote: »

We'll that was a business decision by Boeing not to actively market it so as not to hurt 777 sales. It remains a very capable, if not niche aircraft.

Hmm? They did a World Tour with the prototype! 'Leading the Way' was the slogan, painted in a special livery and starting from the Farnborough 2000 show it visited something like 20 countries. Hardly an example of hiding their lamp under their bushel.



Boeing were very, very keen on selling the -400 to undercut the A330 and were pushing Lufthansa hard; losing that competition really tainted the -400.

Personally I've always liked the -400, it had a pleasing fineness-ratio and just looked right, which is rare for a double-stretch.