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Property description in contract when buying a house

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  • 15-03-2017 9:27pm
    #1
    ck0
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭


    Hello guys,

    I am going to buy a second-hand house and Solicitor received a contract from vendor's solicitor.
    We requested our solicitor to provide property floors plans/layout and property description, but he told this is not included in contract and it's not part of any contracts since long time now. Is that true?
    For me it's somehow awkward to buy a house having in mind only drawings of the property with all measurements provided on daft.ie / from Estate agent. Should all these details be mentioned in official papers? Please share who can suggest anything as I am stuck on how to proceed now.
    Thanks!
    Tagged:


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    #2
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    It's not like they can change the dimensions after you've already checked them and confirmed they match what the estate agent and ad have.

    A valuer on behalf of the bank would come around and remeasures the exterior and boundary at least too.

    I don't think they're usually in contracts, weren't in mine anyway.


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    #3
    ck0
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭ck0


    The problem is that measurements weren't taken by ourselves yet, we were waiting for contract hoping it will have all measurements and then we can compare. Now we can compare only to what we have from the Estate Agent without knowing for sure if layout was somehow altered from the original layout (when it was just built) by the owner.
    Thanks for your answer!

    Can somebody else share their experience? If that is the case in most contracts I will sleep calmer.


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    #4
    tuisginideach
    Registered Users Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭tuisginideach


    Never saw it in a contract.


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    #5
    Steve
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭Steve


    "You buy what you see"

    If you are worried about measurements or defects than you get a survey / engineers report done before you close. :)

    Same as buying a second hand car.


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    #6
    Cathmandooo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,324 ✭✭✭✭Cathmandooo


    No that won't be in the contract. What are you worried about? Having to go through planning permission for an extension?


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    #7
    ck0
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭ck0


    Cathmandooo wrote: »
    No that won't be in the contract. What are you worried about? Having to go through planning permission for an extension?

    Exactly, we are planning to do an extension and according to Planning Permission application it is required to provide layout/floors plan.

    Thank you all for your answers.


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    #8
    Cathmandooo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,324 ✭✭✭✭Cathmandooo


    ck0 wrote: »
    Exactly, we are planning to do an extension and according to Planning Permission application it is required to provide layout/floors plan.

    Thank you all for your answers.

    Get your solicitor to find out from the sellers solicitor if any extensions took place. Is it a one off house or an estate of similar houses? Take a look at the house and surrounding houses on www.myplan.ie youll need to click on layers and untick the box for zoning but it's a good map for house outlines.


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    #9
    ck0
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭ck0


    Cathmandooo wrote: »
    Get your solicitor to find out from the sellers solicitor if any extensions took place. Is it a one off house or an estate of similar houses? Take a look at the house and surrounding houses on www.myplan.ie youll need to click on layers and untick the box for zoning but it's a good map for house outlines.

    It's an estate of similar houses!
    MyPlan Viewer is not working at the moment for me, but I definitely check it later.
    Appreciate your help!


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    #10
    Steve
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭Steve


    Cathmandooo wrote: »
    Get your solicitor to find out from the sellers solicitor if any extensions took place. Is it a one off house or an estate of similar houses? Take a look at the house and surrounding houses on www.myplan.ie youll need to click on layers and untick the box for zoning but it's a good map for house outlines.

    With respect, this is not part of the solicitors remit and in all likelihood they will refuse such a request.


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    #11
    Cathmandooo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,324 ✭✭✭✭Cathmandooo


    Steve wrote: »
    With respect, this is not part of the solicitors remit and in all likelihood they will refuse such a request.

    I bought a house last year and the solicitors were discussing a porch that was built without planning, known purely because it didn't match other houses in the estate, this porch was there decades. My solicitor wouldn't let us sign contracts until the porch was sorted with either retention or getting knocked so I'd say it's very much in their remit. A rear planning exempt extension might be a different kettle of fish alright.


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    #12
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    ck0 wrote: »
    Exactly, we are planning to do an extension and according to Planning Permission application it is required to provide layout/floors plan.

    Thank you all for your answers.

    This is what YOU pay an architect/Engineer/Surveyor for when you own the house.

    Floor plans and measurements would not be included in any second hand home sale and if a purchaser asked me to pay someone to prepare plans for a sale I'd tell them where to go to be honest.

    A future planning application by yourself is your own business and your own responsibility to get drawn up when you own the house.


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    #13
    Steve
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭Steve


    Cathmandooo wrote: »
    I bought a house last year and the solicitors were discussing a porch that was built without planning, known purely because it didn't match other houses in the estate, this porch was there decades. My solicitor wouldn't let us sign contracts until the porch was sorted with either retention or getting knocked so I'd say it's very much in their remit. A rear planning exempt extension might be a different kettle of fish alright.

    Sorry Cath, you are 100% right there, all I saw above was the solicitor being asked to stand over the measurements of the house.

    (oops :o)


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    #14
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Cathmandooo wrote: »
    I bought a house last year and the solicitors were discussing a porch that was built without planning, known purely because it didn't match other houses in the estate, this porch was there decades. My solicitor wouldn't let us sign contracts until the porch was sorted with either retention or getting knocked so I'd say it's very much in their remit. A rear planning exempt extension might be a different kettle of fish alright.

    How did the solicitor find out about the porch?
    Your surveyor picked up on it.
    The op has to pay for his own survey here and that will highlight and planning and building regulation irregularities.

    OP, have you got a survey carried out yet?


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    #15
    juke
    Registered Users Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭juke


    I think it's common in parts of Europe (especially Germany, Poland) for floor plans/dimensions to be provided with the legal papers at contract stage.

    It doesn't happen here. As advised above, if you've a concern for future developments, that's one reason to get a survey.

    It would be standard for your solicitor to check out the planning history, but they are only concerned with legal compliance, not dimensions/plans.


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    #16
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,303 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    There may be a 'specification' when dealing with new houses, but they often aren't worth the paper they are written on.

    The property description is "Number 19 Main Street, Ballymore as shown on the attached map" or similar.

    If you want to know the exact size, materials, construction dates, etc., the vendor is unlikely to have the full picture. Your only chance would be the original builder(s). They or the architect / engineer may have some drawings, as might the council planning department. However, beware copyright.

    Looking at the photos on Google Maps, bing, OSi, etc. may give you some hints. http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,715518,733917,11,0 and click on Ortho 2005, Ortho 2000, Ortho 1995, etc.

    You could post pics here of anything you suspect is an extension (but to be fair to the vendor, nothing identifying).
    Cathmandooo wrote: »
    I bought a house last year and the solicitors were discussing a porch that was built without planning, known purely because it didn't match other houses in the estate, this porch was there decades.
    It depends on the porch. I think there was (not sure if there still is) an exemption for front porches on non-listed buildings of up to 2m^2 on plan.


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    #17
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    juke wrote: »
    I think it's common in parts of Europe (especially Germany, Poland) for floor plans/dimensions to be provided with the legal papers at contract stage.

    It doesn't happen here. As advised above, if you've a concern for future developments, that's one reason to get a survey.

    It would be standard for your solicitor to check out the planning history, but they are only concerned with legal compliance, not dimensions/plans.

    Solicitor only checks that there's no active planning enforcement on the site.
    Your surveyor checks for any additional structures and requests certs of compliance with planning or a Cert of exemption from planning. This report is forwarded to the solicitor and the solicitor requests it from the other side, this is why it looks like your solicitor is requesting these pieces of information, when in fact they are triggered by the survey.


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    #18
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Victor wrote: »
    The property description is "Number 19 Main Street, Ballymore as shown on the attached map" or similar.

    If you want to know the exact size, materials, construction dates, etc., the vendor is unlikely to have the full picture. Your only chance would be the original builder(s). They or the architect / engineer may have some drawings, as might the council planning department. However, beware copyright.

    Looking at the photos on Google Maps, bing, OSi, etc. may give you some hints. http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,715518,733917,11,0 and click on Ortho 2005, Ortho 2000, Ortho 1995, etc.

    You could post pics here of anything you suspect is an extension (but to be fair to the vendor, nothing identifying).

    It depends on the porch. I think there was (not sure if there still is) an exemption for front porches on non-listed buildings of up to 2m^2 on plan.

    Yes, still an active exemption.
    2 square meters internal area. Usually max height of 4m with pitched roof or 3m with flat roof.


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    #19
    juke
    Registered Users Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭juke


    kceire wrote: »
    Solicitor only checks that there's no active planning enforcement on the site.
    Your surveyor checks for any additional structures and requests certs of compliance with planning or a Cert of exemption from planning. This report is forwarded to the solicitor and the solicitor requests it from the other side, this is why it looks like your solicitor is requesting these pieces of information, when in fact they are triggered by the survey.

    Yes and no. A survey often triggers specific questions. But any solicitor should, as a matter of course, ask a vendor's solicitor if there have been any developments to the property since original construction/1964. If they don't, they should re-consider their profession.

    That said, I have found it can take a survey to 'remind' a vendor that eg. they widened a driveway or re-built a chimney.


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    #20
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    juke wrote: »
    Yes and no. A survey often triggers specific questions. But any solicitor should, as a matter of course, ask a vendor's solicitor if there have been any developments to the property since original construction/1964. If they don't, they should re-consider their profession.

    That said, I have found it can take a survey to 'remind' a vendor that eg. they widened a driveway or re-built a chimney.

    Sort of agree, the vendors solicitor is relying on info giving to them by the seller so as a Buyer I would always recommend getting your own survey done.

    Pre 63 is another minefield alright :)


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