Motor tax discs - should it go paperless?

tv3tg4

Motor Tax Discs - Should it go paperless?

I don't think they will go paperless on the grounds of potential evasion - but paperless systms are working in Italy and Spain.

Why with a database of vehicles - they can actually see what vehicles are not taxed.

The brits lost £80m in the first year they switched to paperless.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/nov/26/ministers-lose-80-million-revenue-after-scrapping-car-tax-discs

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tv3tg4 wrote: »

Motor Tax Discs - Should it go paperless?

I don't think they will go paperless on the grounds of potential evasion - but paperless systms are working in Italy and Spain.

Why with a database of vehicles - they can actually see what vehicles are not taxed.

Its currently being looked at by the Govt and some of the councils.

Atlantic Dawn

I think they should integrate the NCT and motor tax disc in to one disc so after you pass the test or pay your tax you get a fresh disc updating the partculars.

I am strongly against them getting rid of the need to display an insurance disc, I think this is vital if your in a roadside accident and need to confirm policy details.

drunkmonkey

They need to make it way smaller same with the Nct and insurance disks, there taking up way to much of the window and creating a blind spot for kids and midgets.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

emeldc

I'm for data base and paperless all the way. Then there's no excuse not to allow you pay for it by monthly direct debit.

ironclaw

Absolutely should go paperless. The flexibility would be incredible.

• Nice drivers car for summer? No problem, buy tax in daily increments online. Even a 'day pass', imagine that for a surprise summer day.
• Have a big engine on the old scheme? Offer generous discounts if you want to buy tax for 12 months or more.
• Avoid the completely unnessisary and often obsure opening hours of tax offices, online any time of the day.
• Prefer to pay in cash? No issue, contract out the ability to pay to third parties e.g. NCT Center, Post Office, Banks. They are open 9 to 5, some 7 days a week.
• Need to talk to someone? Have a centralized, efficient call center so any staff effected by office closure can be re-employed.
• Same day transfer of ownership between two parties.
• Simple ANPR on major routes, toll roads and mobile to catch any offenders.

If you make a system so accessible that you can pay online at any time, there really is no excuse and all it takes is some will power to enforce it.

Or, if you don't want to go to the above hassle, scrap the tax entirely and reword the fuel taxes as is often proposed. I'm cool with either, just stop the inefficiency in this country. It beggars belief we all still allow it to continue.

Caliden

cisk wrote: »

The brits lost £80m in the first year they switched to paperless.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/nov/26/ministers-lose-80-million-revenue-after-scrapping-car-tax-discs

If you hadn't posted this I would've been all for a paperless system.


Sadly, Ireland is renowned for implementing things that have been shown as failures.

I see this as another one of those things that will be implemented, fail and then our TD's will scratch their heads wondering why....


If those figures are indeed true and the net loss is 80m, then I'd be against a paperless system.

For the UK however, it's an 80m loss on a 6 Billion tax take for motor tax. A 1.33% loss, so not exactly a massive amount in the overall scheme of things. they also recouped 33m from fixed penalty notices.

ironclaw

Caliden wrote: »

If you hadn't posted this I would've been all for a paperless system..

Its an interesting read but seems to stem from a lack of enforcement. So yeah, thats bullet before the offset for Ireland. We don't have a hope of proper enforcement.

Del2005

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I am strongly against them getting rid of the need to display an insurance disc, I think this is vital if your in a roadside accident and need to confirm policy details.

It's simple to print a fake insurance disc. A centralised database for insurance, like the UK, would be better.

jca

Del2005 wrote: »

It's simple to print a fake insurance disc. A centralised database for insurance, like the UK, would be better.

The new way is to pay the deposit, get the cert and disc, then let the DD bounce. Keep the disc and cert and hope for the best.

jca

I couldn't see a paperless system working here, the loss to the taxman would be huge.

vicwatson

And while they are at it, they should make it more equitable, while they are at it.

The Bishop Basher

jca wrote: »

I couldn't see a paperless system working here, the loss to the taxman would be huge.

The loss is already huge but then as long as we have a completely inequitable system with exorbitant rates levied at those who can least afford them, people will do whatever they can to avoid paying.

theoneeyedman

jca wrote: »

The new way is to pay the deposit, get the cert and disc, then let the DD bounce. Keep the disc and cert and hope for the best.

Out say 0.5 or 1c or whatever onto a litre of petrol / diesel and the more you drive the more you pay. Simples.

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theoneeyedman wrote: »

Out say 0.5 or 1c or whatever onto a litre of petrol / diesel and the more you drive the more you pay. Simples.

Lets not make things simple....it gets very complicated when we do:D

crossmolinalad

Simple system like Holland
Car on your name you get automaticly your car tax bill at home
Within two months no tax or insurance paid for your car you get a new bill with the full amount to pay for one year and hefty fines for not been insured no ntc and not paid your tax
So long the car is in your name , you are responsible for all three payments

The Bishop Basher

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Out say 0.5 or 1c or whatever onto a litre of petrol / diesel and the more you drive the more you pay. Simples.

Your suggestion makes perfect sense so on that basis rest assured it'll never happen.

That and the fact that it would leave a whole bunch of civil servants with even less to do.

Caliden

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Out say 0.5 or 1c or whatever onto a litre of petrol / diesel and the more you drive the more you pay. Simples.

To offset the cost of motor tax I think it was calculated to have to be ~15-20 cent extra per litre. (For your average road user)

crossmolinalad

Caliden wrote: »

To offset the cost of motor tax I think it was calculated to have to be ~15-20 cent extra per litre. (For your average road user)

And what if you have an electric car???
No tax at all????

techdiver

Our current system is so backwards considering the alternatives that are readily available.

There is a register of vehicle ownership with the tax office. Bill automatically issued for tax, it it's not paid by a certain date you are deemed to be driving without tax unless you provide evidence to the contrary (e.g. vehicle is certified as off the road). Simple really.

Del2005

crossmolinalad wrote: »

And what if you have an electric car???
No tax at all????

Don't worry that revenue stream will be hit shortly. They are suckering us in with free public charging while over in the EV forum they are looking for free tolls and other free stuff to encourage more EV owners. Once we go EV it'll be pay by the km travelled with increased costs during peak times, that's if we even have cars as we know them by then.

Del2005

Caliden wrote: »

To offset the cost of motor tax I think it was calculated to have to be ~15-20 cent extra per litre. (For your average road user)

Would it not be the same for all road users?

The only difference is that people doing huge distances would be paying more than someone doing very little.

markpb

Caliden wrote: »

Sadly, Ireland is renowned for implementing things that have been shown as failures.

Ireland is not renowned for that at all. Irish people are very cynical and point to a small number of bad projects as proof that all projects we do are bad.

Caliden

markpb wrote: »

Ireland is not renowned for that at all. Irish people are very cynical and point to a small number of bad projects as proof that all projects we do are bad.

I'm not saying all projects are bad.

What I tried to say was that we implement things that have already been attempted by other countries (and failed) and yet we do it anyway. eg. e-voting machines.

Cee-Jay-Cee

techdiver wrote: »

Our current system is so backwards considering the alternatives that are readily available.

There is a register of vehicle ownership with the tax office. Bill automatically issued for tax, it it's not paid by a certain date you are deemed to be driving without tax unless you provide evidence to the contrary (e.g. vehicle is certified as off the road). Simple really.

That wont work either just like the current 'declaring the car off the road' has been a spectacular failure and only increased the work of the vehicle registration people who now have to deal with multiple 'change of ownership' applications by people avoiding having to back tax their car.

Until there is an information sharing data base containing ownership/tax, insurance and NCT details then we will never get rid of discs clogging our windscreens.

I would propose a registration system whereby when you pass your driving test you are allocated a registration number, this is your number, non transferable and remains with you for life.

If you buy a new car, you attach your own number to it. You pay a tax on that number each year, it should be one cost regardless of what car you drive, I'd imagine €350 would be a fair amount for everyone to pay.

If you fail to pay it, revenue present you with a fine which is deducted from your salary/dole whatever and your insurance is voided and gardai informed. Self employed people wont get a tax clearance certificate if they fail to pay for it.

It means no more selling cars to someone who cant produce their own registration certificate and number plate. It would greatly reduce the number of people driving around with no insurance, it would stop scroates buying cheap bangers on donedeal to tear around the roads at night and then burn out.

I'm sure there are a few loopholes but for the most part it seems like a sensible option that once up and running should cut down on the numbers driving with no tax and no insurance, greatly.

techdiver

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

That wont work either just like the current 'declaring the car off the road' has been a spectacular failure and only increased the work of the vehicle registration people who now have to deal with multiple 'change of ownership' applications by people avoiding having to back tax their car.

Until there is an information sharing data base containing ownership/tax, insurance and NCT details then we will never get rid of discs clogging our windscreens.

I would propose a registration system whereby when you pass your driving test you are allocated a registration number, this is your number, non transferable and remains with you for life.

If you buy a new car, you attach your own number to it. You pay a tax on that number each year, it should be one cost regardless of what car you drive, I'd imagine €350 would be a fair amount for everyone to pay.

If you fail to pay it, revenue present you with a fine which is deducted from your salary/dole whatever and your insurance is voided and gardai informed. Self employed people wont get a tax clearance certificate if they fail to pay for it.

It means no more selling cars to someone who cant produce their own registration certificate and number plate. It would greatly reduce the number of people driving around with no insurance, it would stop scroates buying cheap bangers on donedeal to tear around the roads at night and then burn out.

I'm sure there are a few loopholes but for the most part it seems like a sensible option that once up and running should cut down on the numbers driving with no tax and no insurance, greatly.

I don't see how it couldn't work.

There will be no get out clause. You own the car you pay the tax. It is automatically billed to you personally. Who ever owns the car on the date of renewal is liable for the tax to be paid. I don't see how putting in a change of ownership will change that.

Personally, I would like motor tax removed completely and just put on the price of fuel. The polluter pays, simple as. Absolutely no avoidance then. It's ridiculous that someone who owns a weekend car that has a big engine is taxed more than someone in a prius that is driven 100 miles every day and pollutes way more.

Cee-Jay-Cee

techdiver wrote: »

I don't see how it couldn't work.

There will be no get out clause. You own the car you pay the tax. It is automatically billed to you personally. Who ever owns the car on the date of renewal is liable for the tax to be paid. I don't see how putting in a change of ownership will change that.

Ok but you have to allow for the car not being used, how do you propose dealers get around it with your plan? Hundreds of cars sitting in car lots with the dealer liable for the tax on them? I don't think so. If they allow a get out clause for dealers, how do you determine who is a dealer? Many small time dealers aren't registered and so anyone could say theyre a dealer and simply trying to sell the car.

techdiver

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Ok but you have to allow for the car not being used, how do you propose dealers get around it with your plan? Hundreds of cars sitting in car lots with the dealer liable for the tax on them? I don't think so. If they allow a get out clause for dealers, how do you determine who is a dealer? Many small time dealers aren't registered and so anyone could say theyre a dealer and simply trying to sell the car.

These are not unsurmountable obstacles.

When you transfer ownership to a dealer now, it is specifically flagged as such, so it's not a huge jump to extend that to cover this scenario.

tv3tg4

if it went paperless you could take out a direct debit or pay at a local soar.

It is so easy to swap ownership to avoid paying or to say disc is in the post.

No figures for evasion exist in Ireland.

Maybe we should add it to the cost of fuel.

bear1

It won't ever happen.

9935452

Caliden wrote: »

To offset the cost of motor tax I think it was calculated to have to be ~15-20 cent extra per litre. (For your average road user)

There was threads on this a while ago.
i believe it would need to be between 30 and 50 cent a litre to bring in the same revenue what would motor tax.

Fred Swanson

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CiniO

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Examples?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

bear1

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Really? Many countries make you pay the tax even it is in a garage not being used. No such thing as an off road declaration. Car is registered to you, you pay the tax. You can't sell unless the tax is up to date.

Italy.

allthedoyles

This whole system needs to be reviewed as soon as possible . Its current format is out-dated

bear1

allthedoyles wrote: »

This whole system needs to be reviewed as soon as possible . Its current format is out-dated

Hoping for that to happen is as useful as the government doing anything in the interests of the average motorist.

Del2005

allthedoyles wrote: »

This whole system needs to be reviewed as soon as possible . Its current format is out-dated

A review will mean increases. They are going to have to fix the diesel mess and take account EV so that's 2 increases and they'll not decrease petrol.

.........

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I think they should integrate the NCT and motor tax disc in to one disc so after you pass the test or pay your tax you get a fresh disc updating the partculars.

I am strongly against them getting rid of the need to display an insurance disc, I think this is vital if your in a roadside accident and need to confirm policy details.

other modern western european countries seem to manage just fine with having to plaster their windscreen in paperwork. it's backward and bureaucratic, especially in the age of modern technology.

Atlantic Dawn

......... wrote: »

other modern western european countries seem to manage just fine with having to plaster their windscreen in paperwork. it's backward and bureaucratic, especially in the age of modern technology.

The Gardaí here are at a minimum 20 years behind the UK in policing technology, the powers that be prefer to have Gardaí work harder than smarter.

If the rumour that all the Hyundai Garda cars they bought are not suitable for ANPR camera setup is true then we still live in a full banana republic and whoever made the decision to buy these cars needs to be given the full golden pension deal.

JohnBoy26

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That's a stupid system tbh and one I wouldn't ever like to see implemented here.

.........

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

That's a stupid system tbh and one I wouldn't ever like to see implemented here.

It already has been. In Ireland it's called VRT.

JohnBoy26

......... wrote: »

It already has been. In Ireland it's called VRT.

It hasn't really though, vrt is different as it's a once of payment

.........

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

It hasn't really though, vrt is different as it's a once of payment

what does it matter if you have to pay a lump sum tax up front or a smaller annual one ? it's just political semantics.

Del2005

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

If the rumour that all the Hyundai Garda cars they bought are not suitable for ANPR camera setup is true then we still live in a full banana republic and whoever made the decision to buy these cars needs to be given the full golden pension deal.

BS. ANPR is a camera and a PC, how can that not be fitted to a car?

JohnBoy26

......... wrote: »

what does it matter if you have to pay a lump sum tax up front or a smaller annual one ? it's just political semantics.

Because vrt isn't motortax and both will have to be paid regardless.

corks finest

tv3tg4 wrote: »

Motor Tax Discs - Should it go paperless?

I don't think they will go paperless on the grounds of potential evasion - but paperless systms are working in Italy and Spain.

Why with a database of vehicles - they can actually see what vehicles are not taxed.

Yes