Team selection criteria

billy3sheets

So, we're coming into the inter-club season now. Many clubs have started the process of selecting their teams for inter-club comps. Names have been submitted by prospective team players and managers and assistant manager appointed. Practice sessions and panel meetings are starting.

I myself am trying to get onto 1 or 2 teams. I began to wonder what the selection criteria used by a manager might be in choosing their team.

Assuming players are available and eligible. Let's say it's a 2-person foursomes or fourball format.

Current form - hard to evaluate as it's been winter rules up to now but players may have had some opportunity to play a few comps before the inter-club starts.
Compatibility - 2 players play well together, complement each others skills, get on well.
Player Handicap - the player(s) have a handicap which you suspect might be generous
Handicap Combination - the combined handicaps are a good match for the competition
Past form or experience - the player or pair have proven experience or victories in this competition
Practice - the players have turned up to most/all ofthe practice sessions
Mates - they are my buddies and will qualify regardless
Fear - I am intimidated by this/these guys or their buddies and am scared to not pick them.

ChippingSodbury

In general, most of the money going into the annual teams pot in the club comes from competition entries so the amount of competitions played in should also be considered if there are any close calls on selection. Does it happen? Unlikely!! Mates & Fear are often the only considerations made.

Ronney

Handicap/Form has to be a consideration.

JB and PP are played off lowest last year. Most people will be a few point ones higher come the start of this season. Come May/June I would be looking for players who have improved on their previous year low.

A 13+14 now off 12 + 12 and you have gained 3 shots on the field
A 13 +14 now off 14 +15 and you have lost two shots......5 Shot swing and its clear the guys going down have actually being playing better than 12's to get cut

Russman

Unfortunately I think in a lot of clubs it comes down to "....sure he's always on the Barton Cup team....". Some teams are a bit like the Irish rugby team, harder to get off them than to get on them.

I think in reality all a team manager can do is go with gut feeling and knowledge of players, gained ideally in some practice matches. There's no magic formula IMO, especially the higher up the handicap ranges you go, where inconsistency tends to be greater. I've seen players who will win 4, 5, 6 singles competitions in a season, get hammered each and every time they put on the club jumper. Last year's form is fine, but for amateur players, coming off a winter with maybe little or no golf, meh, its a rough guide at best.

A good team spirit and everyone pulling in the same direction are key, as opposed to the guy who says he's not available when he hears he's only a sub.

Dtoffee

I am a firm believer in compeditive matchplay practice, mix and match your squad and have them play each other on practice days. Good matchplay golfers are not always easy to spot as they often get bored with strokeplay, but put them head to head and they will win without even knowing what score they had.

Obviously matching pairs is a vital cog in the wheel, but you also have to look at horses for courses ....... some guys are great at home and useless away. I would always prefer a player with a good short game as opposed to a big hitter, chipping in and holing out are what wins games. My advice to anyone wanting to get onto a team, is to get a tee time with the team captain and put a few yoyo's on it ..... then you will see if you can perform under some pressure

Wichita Lineman

I would imagine every club and maybe even every manager has a different way of doing things. In our club it's left to the manager to decide. We put up sheets asking people to put their name up if they are interested in representing the club and some managers put up sheets asking for names for specific teams. Some organise trials, some don't.

The main things I look for (apart from obviously meeting the qualifying criteria) is interest and availability.

red ears

In our club the team captain basically goes around and taps people on the shoulder asking them if they would like to play on the team. Their doesn't seem to be any criteria beyond who the captain thinks might do a job. And on some of the teams it comes down to who has nursed their handicap the best.

The Rape of Lucretia

billy3sheets wrote: »

I began to wonder what the selection criteria used by a manager might be in choosing their team.

Generally accepted guidelines are, in order of importance :
- friend of the team captain
- bandit who nurses his handicap to play on that specific team
- general purpose bandit who has a few shots in the bag and spends most of his summer playing teams golf, rarely putting in a single card (can cause headaches for the captain finding evidence of enough card to ensure eligibility)
- player who has played on that team year in year out for longer than anyone can remember
- friend of the club captain, president, or one of the inner circle of the committees
- young fella who will be a much better golfer than that teams level, but handicap just isnt keeping pace with his pace of improvement

Picking on current playing form is to avoided - it can upset many of the above.

FixdePitchmark

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Generally accepted guidelines are, in order of importance :
- friend of the team captain
- bandit who nurses his handicap to play on that specific team
- general purpose bandit who has a few shots in the bag and spends most of his summer playing teams golf, rarely putting in a single card (can cause headaches for the captain finding evidence of enough card to ensure eligibility)
- player who has played on that team year in year out for longer than anyone can remember
- friend of the club captain, president, or one of the inner circle of the committees
- young fella who will be a much better golfer than that teams level, but handicap just isnt keeping pace with his pace of improvement

Picking on current playing form is to avoided - it can upset many of the above.

Hope this is another classic from TROL, because if above true. You wouldn't be going out of your way to get into a club team - if your a regular golfer on an honest handicap.

billy3sheets

A few wounds opened up here I think!

Some criteria are objective such as not practicing, poor scores in practice or demonstrable poor form in general competition.
Other criteria are more subjective such as previous performance in competition or reputation as a competitor.

Wouldn't be any harm for a manager to have to declare criteria up front so they could defend their choices to those who didn't make it.

Russman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Hope this is another classic from TROL, because if above true. You wouldn't be going out of your way to get into a club team - if your a regular golfer on an honest handicap.

He may be exaggerating a little, but to be fair, there's more than a grain of truth in some of the points raised, not them all though.

Unfortunately interclub golf, brilliant as it is, in certain competitions, attracts handicap nursers like moths to a flame. There aren't that many, but all any team needs is 3 or 4 to be competitive. In 99.9% of cases they're not even viewed as nursers and may not even be one, they're just guys who are strong, hard, experienced players who understand matchplay. In the higher handicap competitions, like PP etc, a golfer who fits the "ideal" system profile of his handicap reflecting his potential and him needing to play "well" to play to his handicap, will struggle. Funnily enough the opposite is often true in the lower handicap competitions, say, Junior Cup, where playing to your handicap will almost certainly give you an easy win (in the early rounds anyway).

A team managers job is going to vary hugely from club to club depending on the membership profile. Sometimes a club will struggle to put a team together, sometimes a club would have two or three players for every spot on a team. Personally I favour one manager for any team, no committees or joint managers, just one guy who does it his way in a given year.

Russman

billy3sheets wrote: »

A few wounds opened up here I think!

Some criteria are objective such as not practicing, poor scores in practice or demonstrable poor form in general competition.
Other criteria are more subjective such as previous performance in competition or reputation as a competitor.

Wouldn't be any harm for a manager to have to declare criteria up front so they could defend their choices to those who didn't make it.

Tbh I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in some of those. One of the best interclub performers I've ever known has probably never practiced in his life, other than playing a practice round on an away course, certainly he's never gone out and hit balls or anything. As for poor scores in practice rounds, meh, practice rounds are like playing football without goalposts, completely meaningless other than getting to know a partner or a course. Everyone plays great in practice.
I think the subjective criteria are more where a manager comes into it. At some point he's going to have to make some judgement calls. Plus you need players to be honest enough to say "I'm not playing well, might be best to leave me out" or "I never play well on that course, I just can't handle the greens"

The Rape of Lucretia

Russman wrote: »

In the higher handicap competitions, like PP etc, a golfer who fits the "ideal" system profile of his handicap reflecting his potential and him needing to play "well" to play to his handicap, will struggle.

I jest a little above. You cannot really afford too many passengers if you want to get very far, so picking the usual suspects is fine if you are happy with a day or two out as friends.
But you are right. A PP h/c range player is of no use to an ambitious PP captain - or one aiming to progress in the competition anyway. To be more specific, you are looking for experienced Jimmy Bruen campaigners who have let the handicap out a bit to pick up a few Captains prizes or whatever, but still play to about 9, and, a few young lads who really only focused on the game last year and who will be of 7 or 8 by the end of this summer. If you get he right blend of them, you will blitz the teams that are innocent enough to field players with correct handicaps, and the ones that are just the captains mates on a day out. This has been the successful formula in any of the successful teams, done superbly by some clubs in recent years.

billy3sheets

Russman wrote: »

Tbh I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in some of those. One of the best interclub performers I've ever known has probably never practiced in his life, other than playing a practice round on an away course, certainly he's never gone out and hit balls or anything. As for poor scores in practice rounds, meh, practice rounds are like playing football without goalposts, completely meaningless other than getting to know a partner or a course. Everyone plays great in practice.
I think the subjective criteria are more where a manager comes into it. At some point he's going to have to make some judgement calls. Plus you need players to be honest enough to say "I'm not playing well, might be best to leave me out" or "I never play well on that course, I just can't handle the greens"

I disagree about the practice. I think that most players wouldn't be used to team format especially foursomes and need to get a few games in with a partner, ideally the one they will play with in the competition proper. They help build up the team atmosphere too.
From what I've seen everybody certainly does not play well in practice. I agree with you that a good practice score doesn't mean you'll get the same in competition but I'd be concerned about a pair that played a few bad practice rounds.
You definitely have to put your hand up if you don't feel you're up to it for whatever reason. I had to do this myself a few years ago. I still went along to support the team at the matches, did a bit of spotting etc.
I would also say that you need to respect the management decisions even if it hurts. For the most part they are just volunteering and can't please everyone.

ForeRight

Be handy to get someone posting from one of the couple of clubs who seem to always get to the finals.

They seem to have the selection process dialled in perfectly whatever their secret is?

The Rape of Lucretia

ForeRight wrote: »

Be handy to get someone posting from one of the couple of clubs who seem to always get to the finals.

They seem to have the selection process dialled in perfectly whatever their secret is?

It is no secret. Winning cycling medals is easy, once cross a certain threshold. The same with teams golf - there is a way to win, and a way to take part. You just decide which one you want to be part of. The GUI and their Playfair or whatever it is are really ignoring the elephant in the room on this one. Club comps, opens, classics, etc are one thing. And their jurisdiction over them is secondary. But the teams comps that are directly run by the GUI are the epitome of all they that are pointing out as wrong in clubs and campaigning to improve. While ignoring their own back yard. Shameful really. Too many expense days out and blazer photo ops involved I guess, to be putting a dampner on them.

billy3sheets

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I jest a little above. You cannot really afford too many passengers if you want to get very far, so picking the usual suspects is fine if you are happy with a day or two out as friends.
But you are right. A PP h/c range player is of no use to an ambitious PP captain - or one aiming to progress in the competition anyway. To be more specific, you are looking for experienced Jimmy Bruen campaigners who have let the handicap out a bit to pick up a few Captains prizes or whatever, but still play to about 9, and, a few young lads who really only focused on the game last year and who will be of 7 or 8 by the end of this summer. If you get he right blend of them, you will blitz the teams that are innocent enough to field players with correct handicaps, and the ones that are just the captains mates on a day out. This has been the successful formula in any of the successful teams, done superbly by some clubs in recent years.

Funny but true I think.
From last year's PP qualifiers :
348 (4 x 87s) came 1st.
364 (4 × 91s) just missed out.
360 (4 × 90s) made top 4 through to playoffs.
So roughly speakimg:
- bogey golf average from 4 of your 5 teams would get you to next stage.

FixdePitchmark

Was reading back this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057647082&page=2

And I know the GUI have stepped in now with "awareness" - but very embarrassing that they were fawning over this event - when reading back, there are 3 clubs mentioned that have no place in Interclub for a few years. And no place in classics.

I know there are a majority of members that would suffer - but you cant have that carry on in sport , and just ignore it. A bit Russian.

We are talking about lads with over 10 shots in the bag. Crazy stuff.

Russman

billy3sheets wrote: »

I disagree about the practice. I think that most players wouldn't be used to team format especially foursomes and need to get a few games in with a partner, ideally the one they will play with in the competition proper. They help build up the team atmosphere too.
From what I've seen everybody certainly does not play well in practice. I agree with you that a good practice score doesn't mean you'll get the same in competition but I'd be concerned about a pair that played a few bad practice

Ah yeah, practicing with a new partner or on an away course, obviously that a beneficial, I was more referring to some clubs who base a lot of team selection on guys turning up for, say, mid winter panel lessons/training with the club pro. That's just doesn't interest (or suit) some guys who are still worth having on a team.

Wrt practice rounds, I've mixed thoughts. Great for team building etc., but I'm not convinced the scores recorded matter a huge amount. I guess it depends on their function, eg if the team manager states that scores matter for selection or that he wants cards kept to review scores, then maybe. But honestly, most practice rounds are on your home course, stroke play, and relatively relaxed - it's a whole other ball game on match day.

BraveDonut

Russman wrote: »

Plus you need players to be honest enough to say "I'm not playing well, might be best to leave me out" or "I never play well on that course, I just can't handle the greens"

This

I don't think that this happens often enough. Some people will want to be in the team regardless of their form.
I 'unselected' myself from team a few years ago as I felt that I hit a slump in form. I was widely praised for opting to be sub.

Dbu

ForeRight wrote: »

Be handy to get someone posting from one of the couple of clubs who seem to always get to the finals.

They seem to have the selection process dialled in perfectly whatever their secret is?

you may be waiting on that one Id say..