The Epidemic of Gay Loneliness :

newacc2015

As much as I dislike Huffpo, I actually think this is an amazing article. Although it takes an age to read, it is really good

It is honest and raw, which is rare for an LGBT article

http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/gay-loneliness/

lottpaul

A very long - and hard hitting in places - article. Accepting the statistics at face value they seem to be very depressing indeed. The levels of suicide and self harm among gay men remains high, across many countries, some of which have had progressive legislation for many years. I had always laboured under the hope and expectation that greater openness and debate would lessen those figures, especially amongst the younger generations.
I'm intrigued by the term "minority stress" but I can see validity in it, especially - it says in the article - as the minority in question is hidden from obvious view, as compared e.g. to being black etc.

"John Pachankis, a stress researcher at Yale, says the real damage gets done in the five or so years between realizing your sexuality and starting to tell other people. Even relatively small stressors in this period have an outsized effect—not because they’re directly traumatic, but because we start to expect them."

This would suggest that a huge amount of attention needs to be focussed on school going early teenage kids in particular, especially at second level. This isn't currently happening in schools so how, where and when would seem to be a major question.

“Gay men in particular are just not very nice to each other”

"We show other people what the world shows us, which is nastiness.”

"Every gay man I know carries around a mental portfolio of all the ****ty things other gay men have said and done to him."

I was semi outraged when I read these sections, then had a deep breath and considered my own experiences. On the whole I wouldn't agree but of course it has to be true sometimes - and it does depend on place and context. Like it or not, men are men and sometimes testosterone/conditioning/stereotyping or whatever kicks in and things are said and done which would be far better not said or done.

Overall I'm glad I took the time to read it and it's good food for thought, agree with it or not as we choose.

But... loneliness among gay people/old people/widowed people etc etc is a very real thing. Whatever the causes it is out there and sometimes we have to stop waiting for "someone else" to do something about it -- any suggestions??

playedalive

lottpaul wrote: »

“Gay men in particular are just not very nice to each other”

"We show other people what the world shows us, which is nastiness.”

"Every gay man I know carries around a mental portfolio of all the ****ty things other gay men have said and done to him."

I was semi outraged when I read these sections, then had a deep breath and considered my own experiences. On the whole I wouldn't agree but of course it has to be true sometimes - and it does depend on place and context. Like it or not, men are men and sometimes testosterone/conditioning/stereotyping or whatever kicks in and things are said and done which would be far better not said or done.

But... loneliness among gay people/old people/widowed people etc etc is a very real thing. Whatever the causes it is out there and sometimes we have to stop waiting for "someone else" to do something about it -- any suggestions??

Yep that article does ring a lot of truth for me. I don't think Gay men round my age bracket (20s-30s anyway) treat each other well (in Ireland anyway). Funnily enough, I have no close gay friends, but I work in an office with a lot of gay men (but I like to keep professional life professional but have the odd chat about handsome celebs, they talk about boyfriends :P). Now I will admit I am quite eccentric, not much of a clubber, and probably not the most eye catching for many guys though I try to dress well, be healthy and fit for myself. Maybe my attitude is very quiet and a little stand-offish as the only gay men I have been with are gay men I have been intimate with and moved on after no emotional connection was really there. Even if there is not going to be intimacy yet you have a fair bit in common to be friends, I feel other gay guys, particularly those who use the apps, just move onto somebody else, as if there is plenty of fish. That is fair but when it happens so often (even I went to counselling to an openly gay counsellor to see if they are issues with me), you do feel that you don't fit in and it makes you lonely, especially when your closeknit mates don't want to hear the dishy details about a date you went on.

I have also tried LGBT activity themed meet ups and boards meet ups, just to even get to make friends but I feel that the ultimate goal, based on my own experiences, is that it is quite difficult to befriend gay guys (here in Dublin away- my own experience) unless you either have a specific interest (like running, gaming) or you are quite active on the scene. Personally I have tried the scene (George, Dragon) but I like to just have a chat and do activities. Also the eye scan and what could be interpreted as a look of disgust is kinda soul destroying and again you feel like nothing is value. I'm not saying it happens to me all the time in the G but it makes you feel like you might as well be on grindr getting creeped out and "taking what you can get" :pac:

On all the nastiness and mental portfolio, when I was in school, I gravitated towards other closeted guys and I felt the fact they were otracised made them feel that they had the right to treat others as they have been treated. Thus, I was bullied too as I was a hard core geek and weak. Again, I won't lie this has possibly led me to hold up my guard and be cautious around other gay men, but when you see some gay men in 20s and 30s even treating you on that level and it not being a casual slag between mates, it just makes you feel there is no basic decorum amongst a significant portion of gay men. There are flaws in my argumentation but my own experience resonates with the article in many ways.

TL;DR: This article resonates with me that it is lonely and difficulty to befriend or connect with guys outside of casual sex. I think the whole social media scene and the gay scene has led us to "If we don't get exactly what we gay men want, we tend to just move on, by ignoring or by mouthing off, until we do without due care for the feeling of those who may just like/want to be with you and just want to be friends even. This article is good for suggestions http://attitude.co.uk/say-goodbye-to-being-a-mean-gay-its-time-to-cheer-each-other-on/?utm_content=buffer4f7ad&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

JupiterKid

Very sobering but refreshing reading. I would agree with 90% of the opinions expressed on the piece. Despite achieving equality, the gay male world is very atomised and shallow.

jobbridge4life

The article is very tough. I think I experienced nearly every emotion while reading through it. From outraged objection, to enthusiastic agreement, to great sadness and then, at the end, a sense that it had really broadened my perspective and maybe helped illustrate some elements of my own life that I don’t like to shine a lot of light on.

I think the most significant thing that I will take from the article is the information about PTSD. Medical professionals have mentioned this to me before but I’ve always associated it, primarily, with other aspects of and events in my life. The way this article discussed PTSD makes so much sense though and I can see it in so many of my interactions with others and how I approach things. It has made me reassess a lot.

The article makes for somewhat depressing reading that is sure, but I think at the end of the day it just confirms what many of us already knew. That there is a significant body of work still to be done and just because marriage equality has been achieved and we, happily, live in a more tolerant time a lot of us are living our lives carrying an incredible amount of baggage and crucially that, that is okay.

LLMMLL

The problem with the scene is people's expectations of it. That it almost owes you friendship. When this doesn't happen, just as it probably won't happen if I go to any random straight bar, people blame the scene rather than their unrealistic expectations.

I found a lot of the personal experiences in the article very navel-gazing-american-me-me-me-me. The ones about getting rejected online. If you can't handle rejection you shouldn't be on the apps. It's not the gay communities fault. And let's not forget this exact phenomenon is happening in the straight world. In that case some men are blaming women, and it's driving some of the ****ty male-centric anti-women ideologies that are popping up.

newacc2015

LLMMLL wrote: »

I found a lot of the personal experiences in the article very navel-gazing-american-me-me-me-me. The ones about getting rejected online. If you can't handle rejection you shouldn't be on the apps. It's not the gay communities fault. And let's not forget this exact phenomenon is happening in the straight world. In that case some men are blaming women, and it's driving some of the ****ty male-centric anti-women ideologies that are popping up.

My two cents it was not just rejection based on apps, it is gay people can't handle rejection at all. We have been hard wired from being rejected by friends, family co-workers etc. Online apps is only an extension of that not be all and end all.

I don't think you find people in the "straight world" having rejection to the same extent. They would not have been stunned by friends at 16/17. If they are rejected on Tinder, it is ok for them. A gay guy who has been rejected for 10 years might struggle more with rejection on grindr.

Ten of Swords

LLMMLL wrote: »

The problem with the scene is people's expectations of it. That it almost owes you friendship. When this doesn't happen, just as it probably won't happen if I go to any random straight bar, people blame the scene rather than their unrealistic expectations.

If I could thank this post repeatedly I would. This has summed up my thoughts on it perfectly.

LLMMLL

newacc2015 wrote: »

My two cents it was not just rejection based on apps, it is gay people can't handle rejection at all. We have been hard wired from being rejected by friends, family co-workers etc. Online apps is only an extension of that not be all and end all.

I don't think you find people in the "straight world" having rejection to the same extent. They would not have been stunned by friends at 16/17. If they are rejected on Tinder, it is ok for them. A gay guy who has been rejected for 10 years might struggle more with rejection on grindr.

I don't see the link at all. Rejection by family or friends is a completely different kettle of fish.

But either way, straight men definitely do feel rejection strongly. There are multiple threads in the gentleman's forum and after hours about tinder, and there are lots of men in it complaining that women are shallow and are only into tall rugby players. Sounds very similar to the complaining gay guys do about the gay scene to me.

newacc2015

LLMMLL wrote: »

I don't see the link at all. Rejection by family or friends is a completely different kettle of fish.

But either way, straight men definitely do feel rejection strongly. There are multiple threads in the gentleman's forum and after hours about tinder, and there are lots of men in it complaining that women are shallow and are only into tall rugby players. Sounds very similar to the complaining gay guys do about the gay scene to me.

So you don't think someone who constantly stunned by others around him will not be in the slightest way affected by when he goes to speak to guys? Or it will have zero impact on their relationships? If you constantly open to friends, family etc about being gay and are rejected. You will probably be quite closed off in relationships

Gay men are, as Keuroghlian puts it, “primed to expect rejection.” We’re constantly scanning social situations for ways we may not fit into them. We struggle to assert ourselves. We replay our social failures on a loop.

This going to sound very harsh, but I know straight guys who not be the most attractive, confident etc who expect to be able to date models. Rejection is somewhat rational there. You can't expect Danny Devito to be in with a chance of dating Kylie Jenner.

On the other hand, you have tall, attractive, educated, funny, wealthy etc gay guys waiting to be rejected from other gay guys. You would not find a straight guy who is hardwired to be rejected to the same extent.

What society sees as 'perfection' is often not good enough in the gay community. I don't think you will find that to the same extent in the straight community.

I personally have stopped dating certain guys when they kept on bringing up how attractive I was and how they couldn't believe they were dating me. You would not find that insecurity to the same extent among straight people

LLMMLL

newacc2015 wrote: »

So you don't think someone who constantly stunned by others around him will not be in the slightest way affected by when he goes to speak to guys? Or it will have zero impact on their relationships? If you constantly open to friends, family etc about being gay and are rejected. You will probably be quite closed off in relationships

Gay men are, as Keuroghlian puts it, “primed to expect rejection.” We’re constantly scanning social situations for ways we may not fit into them. We struggle to assert ourselves. We replay our social failures on a loop.

This going to sound very harsh, but I know straight guys who not be the most attractive, confident etc who expect to be able to date models. Rejection is somewhat rational there. You can't expect Danny Devito to be in with a chance of dating Kylie Jenner.

On the other hand, you have tall, attractive, educated, funny, wealthy etc gay guys waiting to be rejected from other gay guys. You would not find a straight guy who is hardwired to be rejected to the same extent.

What society sees as 'perfection' is often not good enough in the gay community. I don't think you will find that to the same extent in the straight community.

I'm sure a bad coming out experience or issues with family can affect future relationships. I don't think that it makes Grindr rejection worse than tinder rejection is for straight people. Two different issues.

And there are gay people with ridiculously high standards also. I have very stereotypically attractive friends who get messages on Grindr where you'd be thinking "how does this guy think he has a shot".

The truth is there are oitgoing confident unattractive gay men and there are shy anxious attractive gay men and the same.exists in the straight world.

I think it's a little unfair to straight men this idea that the majority of them are confident and have no dating issues. Seriously go.and check a thread on dating in any other forum and you'll find a mass of insecurities.

There are also plenty of straight men who tell the woman they're with they can't believe how lucky they are out of insecurity. I've seen posts with this exact issue posted by women in the personal issues forum.

personally have stopped dating certain guys when they kept on bringing up how attractive I was and how they couldn't believe they were dating me. You would not find that insecurity to the same extent among straight people

Send pics please

baby and crumble

LLMMLL wrote: »

Send pics please

Unnecessary. I'm sure it was a joke but soliciting pics really isn't the point of the forum.

LLMMLL

baby and crumble wrote: »

Unnecessary. I'm sure it was a joke but soliciting pics really isn't the point of the forum.

It was a joke lol..........But feel free to send




STILL JOKING

playedalive

LLMMLL wrote: »

The problem with the scene is people's expectations of it. That it almost owes you friendship. When this doesn't happen, just as it probably won't happen if I go to any random straight bar, people blame the scene rather than their unrealistic expectations.

I found a lot of the personal experiences in the article very navel-gazing-american-me-me-me-me. The ones about getting rejected online. If you can't handle rejection you shouldn't be on the apps. It's not the gay communities fault. And let's not forget this exact phenomenon is happening in the straight world. In that case some men are blaming women, and it's driving some of the ****ty male-centric anti-women ideologies that are popping up.

Hmmm I can see what you mean. I wouldn't say that people expect friendships from the scene (it's not black and white), but it would be nice to connect with others if the mutual feelings are there. Beyond the shallow sexual or romantic quests that the article portrays. Of course, latter would be ideal but I think it's important to be open-minded, which you don't easily find in the scene imo. You come to a point where if you are only making the effort with other gay men, you just move on. It can be a little tiring.

Again, with apps, it is a vicious circle in my opinion. You feel closed if you are not on them and putting yourself out there for what may come about but yet it can be kinda frustrating getting matched, maybe having some chat, then maybe a meet up and hook up, then rinse and repeat. Like it's great saying to gay men 'Go join a club, put yourself out there", but we all want to feel part of something and when you don't, it is quite lonely.

Fleawuss

Too much idealization of the straight world here. I've spent too long listening to straight women and men pouring out their hurt and rejection to listen to that unreal idealization.

Goodshape

LLMMLL wrote: »

If you can't handle rejection you shouldn't be on the apps. It's not the gay communities fault. And let's not forget this exact phenomenon is happening in the straight world.

That's unnecessarily dismissive of the issues facing the gay community.


> "These apples are rotten, I don't want to eat them"

> "But some oranges are rotten too! Therefor, eat rotten apples and stop complaining."


Let the straight folk sort out their own problems. Sure they're similar looking problems in places but I think it's disingenuous to suggest that we don't have fairly unique and powerful life events contributing to our own.


Very good article anyway. Lots to reflect on.

Fleawuss

It's an interesting article. Would be more interesting if the stats on increased risk of some conditions were replicated internationally. I wonder to what extent is the community a "canary in the coal mine". Levels of depression and anxiety have anecdotally skyrocketed in society. It's a worthwhile starting point.

LLMMLL

Goodshape wrote: »

That's unnecessarily dismissive of the issues facing the gay community.


> "These apples are rotten, I don't want to eat them"

> "But some oranges are rotten too! Therefor, eat rotten apples and stop complaining."


Let the straight folk sort out their own problems. Sure they're similar looking problems in places but I think it's disingenuous to suggest that we don't have fairly unique and powerful life events contributing to our own.


Very good article anyway. Lots to reflect on.

The issues facing gay men using apps are the exact same as those facing straight men. Basically, everyone wants the hottest guys/girls but the hottest guy/girls only want the hottest guys/girls. So everyone from the unattractive to the decent looking feels overlooked. This is not a gay issue, it's an internet-dating-is-based-on-looks problem.

And there is no way to "sort out" what is basic human nature. So of you are not fairly hot and can't handle.rejection your best bet is to get off apps. Complaining that gay men are shallow is wrong.on two levels. It's not specifically gay men who are shallow and your complaining is not at all productive.

Annasopra

Fleawuss wrote: »

It's an interesting article. Would be more interesting if the stats on increased risk of some conditions were replicated internationally. I wonder to what extent is the community a "canary in the coal mine". Levels of depression and anxiety have anecdotally skyrocketed in society. It's a worthwhile starting point.

It has been well documented that lgbt drink more, smoke more, take more drugs, commit suicide more then their straight cis counterparts.

Goodshape

LLMMLL wrote: »

This is not a gay issue, it's an internet-dating-is-based-on-looks problem.

No, I think you picked a single issue, or rather a single manifestation of the issues, mentioned in the article and built an argument against it.

Yes straight people suffer the same fate as the rest of us when they use the apps. I don't think there was any suggestion made that that wouldn't be the case.

But saying "straight people have that problem too!" is missing the point of the article as I read it.

In spite of the rejections, [why] do gay men, even now, feel they need these apps? And even forget the apps, why are gay men still ending up lonely and alone, and/or emotionally detached.


I just thought it was a more interesting article than just a critique on hookup apps.

LLMMLL

Goodshape wrote: »

No, I think you picked a single issue, or rather a single manifestation of the issues, mentioned in the article and built an argument against it.

Yes straight people suffer the same fate as the rest of us when they use the apps. I don't think there was any suggestion made that that wouldn't be the case.

But saying "straight people have that problem too!" is missing the point of the article as I read it.

In spite of the rejections, [why] do gay men, even now, feel they need these apps? And even forget the apps, why are gay men still ending up lonely and alone, and/or emotionally detached.


I just thought it was a more interesting article than just a critique on hookup apps.

I'm not trying to critique this article as a whole. I'm criticising some elements of it that I've found are quite common among gay men with negative attitudes towards other gay men. Mainly expressed through the idea that men and/or the scene is "shallow".

I'm suggesting that these men have 1. Unrealisyic expectations regarding the scene and 2. Are unable to handle rejection on apps.

Now I don't think the article said anything about straight men having it easy but some of the contents on this thread are ignoring that straight men do have it just as hard in regard to dating apps. As I've said (and which has been mostly ignored) this has led to a rise in anti-women ideologies. These guys clearly aren't happy in other aspects of their lives.

Yes gay people face certain issues that straight people don't but I don't see the point in trying to label society-wide issues as gay issues and using it as a stick to beat the supposed shallow gay men with.