Notice to leave

Zapperzy

Iv just gotten a call from my landlady today to say she is not renewing our lease in may. Iv lived here for nearly 3 years, started with a 1 year lease and never signed or agreed to anything when this finished, just assumed it was on a rolling basis and I'd be protected with the part 4 tenancy? We've always paid rent on time, haven't broken the lease or caused any trouble whatsoever. She wouldn't give a reason for it, mumbled things about maybe selling or refurbishing, also said she'd email my written notice which I haven't yet received.

Anyone got any advice on where I stand or what I should do? Am I definitely covered under the part 4?

Sarn

You are definitely covered under Part IV. She will need to do everything above board if she is to serve a valid notice of termination.

Hack12

Termination must be in writing in a letter. An email is not legally binding woth RTB outlining reasons etc. Check out RTB site for details

km991148

ye too late to have you out in May.

Browney7

Needs to be for the reasons specified in tenancies act - no letter, no notice

Hack12

Hack12 wrote: »

Termination must be in writing in a letter. An email is not legally binding woth RTB outlining reasons etc. Check out RTB site for details

Link? email has replaced post for a large amount of our lives I see no reason by an email wouldn't be legally binding once it meets all the requirements required for a valid notice.

Cazale

Alanna Beautiful Manicurist wrote:

Link? email has replaced post for a large amount of our lives I see no reason by an email wouldn't be legally binding once it meets all the requirements required for a valid notice.

NOTICES OF TERMINATION

In order for a Notice of Termination to be valid, it must:

Be in writing. (an email will not suffice)

Be signed by the landlord or his or her authorised agent or, as appropriate, the tenant.

Specify the date of service.

State the reason for termination (where the tenancy has lasted for more than 6 months or is a fixed term tenancy).

Specify the termination date and also that the tenant has the whole of the 24 hours of this date to vacate possession.

State that any issue as to the validity of the notice or the right of the landlord to serve it must be referred to the Residential Tenancies Board within 28 days from the receipt of the notice.

Be accompanied by a statement/statutory declaration where required

Ridiculous that an email cannot be used to deliver the notice in this day and age.

Cazale

Alanna Beautiful Manicurist wrote:

Ridiculous that an email cannot be used to deliver the notice in this day and age.

It's a legal requirement so should be treated with respect as should the tenants. You'll be wanting to post it on Facebook next.

utmbuilder

this happened 18 months ago to a person I knew hes still in his house going through the prtb process.

speak to treshold , abide by the law etc

Del2005

Sydney Disgusting Hallway wrote: »

Ridiculous that an email cannot be used to deliver the notice in this day and age.

An emailed scan of a signature isn't recognised as a legal signature, they can fax it and that's legal but who has a fax machine.

El_Duderino 09

Del2005 wrote:

An emailed scan of a signature isn't recognised as a legal signature, they can fax it and that's legal but who has a fax machine.

Don't fax machines scan the original image? Very strange distinction between fax, post and email

the_syco

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Don't fax machines scan the original image? Very strange distinction between fax, post and email

I'm assuming that you can get proof of delivery with fax and post, but not so with email?

spaceHopper

Sydney Disgusting Hallway wrote: »

Ridiculous that an email cannot be used to deliver the notice in this day and age.

Say for the sake of argument you emailed it how do you know it was received. Prove you sent it to the correct address, people change email addresses all the time, I've got two old one's I never use anymore because of spam.

spaceHopper

spaceHopper wrote: »

Say for the sake of argument you emailed it how do you know it was received. Prove you sent it to the correct address, people change email addresses all the time, I've got two old one's I never use anymore because of spam.

How do you prove a letter is received unless its registered post which most people don't use even official things (penalty points being a very high profile one where thousands got of by saying they never got it). Even registered post can be signed for by someone else and then be thrown aside and forgotten about etc.

A quick phone call prior to emailing the notice to get an up to date address will solve any issue with old addresses etc.

Cazale

Alanna Beautiful Manicurist wrote:

How do you prove a letter is received unless its registered post which most people don't use even official things (penalty points being a very high profile one where thousands got of by saying they never got it). Even registered post can be signed for by someone else and then be thrown aside and forgotten about etc.

Mine was hand delivered by the letting agent.

Del2005

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Don't fax machines scan the original image? Very strange distinction between fax, post and email

A fax machine produces a facsimile which is an exact copy an email doesn't.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=facsimile+definition&oq=facsimile+&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.8418j0j4&client=ms-unknown&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

GGTrek

The RTA 2004 establishes how to serve the notices and email is not among the methods allowed for service, That's it. If you do not like it take it to Coveney who has only created problems after problems in the past few months.

Section 6: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/27/enacted/en/print#sec6
6.—(1) A notice required or authorised to be served or given by or under this Act shall, subject to subsection (2), be addressed to the person concerned by name and may be served on or given to the person in one of the following ways:

(a) by delivering it to the person;
(b) by leaving it at the address at which the person ordinarily resides or, in a case in which an address for service has been furnished, at that address;
(c) by sending it by post in a prepaid letter to the address at which the person ordinarily resides or, in a case in which an address for service has been furnished, to that address;
(d) where the notice relates to a dwelling and it appears that no person is in actual occupation of the dwelling, by affixing it in a conspicuous position on the outside of the dwelling or the property containing the dwelling.
(2) Where the notice concerned is to be served on or given to a person who is the owner, landlord, tenant or occupier of a dwelling and the name of the person cannot be ascertained by reasonable inquiry it may be addressed to the person by using the words the owner, the landlord, the tenant or the occupier, as the case may require.
(3) For the purposes of this section, a company shall be deemed to be ordinarily resident at its registered office, and every other body corporate and every unincorporated body shall be deemed to be ordinarily resident at its principal office or place of business.
(4) A person shall not, at any time during the period of 3 months after a notice is affixed under subsection (1)(d) remove, damage or deface the notice without lawful authority.
(5) A person who contravenes subsection (4) is guilty of an offence.
(6) Where, in proceedings under Part 6, it is shown that a notice was served or given in accordance with the provisions of this section and on the date that it is alleged it was served or given, the onus shall be on the recipient to establish to the Board, the adjudicator or Tribunal's satisfaction that the notice was not received in sufficient time to enable compliance with the relevant time limit specified by or under this Act.

I said it in previous threads Section 6(6) is particulary detrimental for the smart tenants who act in bad faith and say they have not received the notice. This is really a bad defense tactic that is going to backfire badly: RTB adjudicators again and again have thrown out these "smart" defenses.

Tenant should not try these smart tactics, they should accept the hard reality that a notice of termination has been served and only evaluate if it is valid or not. "smart" hide and seek tactics suggested quite often in this forum by unknowledgeable people do not work.

My suggestion to the OP is to be open with their landlord and ask her in written form: (a) why the landlord wants the OP out (b) remind the landlord that the OP still has 1 year on his/her part four tenancy (c) tell the landlord that the notice served in such way is not valid.

In any case I would strongly suggest the OP to negotiate a longer period to move out and start looking for alternative accommodation unless the OP enjoys protracted legal proceedings who are in any case going to terminate with the OP being evicted if the landlord hires a decent solicitor.

The OP has been at the property for almost 3 years and in exactly 1 year his part four rights terminate and the landlord can kick the OP out for any valid reason (he can just say in the notice: "the reason is that the landlord is not going to grant a new tenancy on the expiry of the Part 4 tenancy", this is a valid reason as long as it is stated). A few weeks ago I kicked out a really bad tenant in this way at the RTB with a reason like this one (he was the kind of "smart" tenant I was talking about). Part 4 security of tenure is still 4 years for old tenancies and 6 years for new ones after 24th of December 2016, it is not indefinite as many tenants believe and I almost believed at one point.

best of luck to the OP I hope he/she can reach an amicable solution

Claw Hammer

Sydney Disgusting Hallway wrote: »

How do you prove a letter is received unless its registered post which most people don't use even official things (penalty points being a very high profile one where thousands got of by saying they never got it). Even registered post can be signed for by someone else and then be thrown aside and forgotten about etc.

.

It is not necessary to prove the notice was received by the addressee. The RTA specifies how a notice may be served and it is sufficient to leave it at the address, post it to the address or give it to the person. All that has to be proven is that the letter was put in the post. It is easy to get a receipt for postal tracking.

It is also the case that an email is admissable by the RTB under the Electronic Commerce Act 2000 but nobody has challenged the RTB on this as of yet.

Zapperzy

I haven't even yet received this email, so far all I'v received is a phonecall. Neighbour with identical apartment from same landlady is paying a lot more than I am, I think this has a lot to do with it. Next door's previous tenants tenancy ended quite sourly too, from the little I know he too was there a number of years and paying quite low rent, he was pushed out and it was readvertised for substantially more.

Marcusm

Sydney Disgusting Hallway wrote: »

How do you prove a letter is received unless its registered post which most people don't use even official things (penalty points being a very high profile one where thousands got of by saying they never got it). Even registered post can be signed for by someone else and then be thrown aside and forgotten about etc.

A quick phone call prior to emailing the notice to get an up to date address will solve any issue with old addresses etc.

You don't need to prove it as a document sent by post is treated as received when it would be received in the ordinary course of post. There is no equivalent procedural rule for email which is why a sensible landlord will simply serve notice by post and it need not be registered but simply ask for a CErtificate of POsting which is available free of charge.

athtrasna

Mod note

Can we end the fixation with the delivery method please. The OP has stated, more than once, that to date they have only received a phone call.

Zapperzy

To update this I never received any more correspondence from my landlady. Iv been in touch with threshold and talked to a number of people at work who pointed out to me that if I were to move in the meantime I haven't given proper notice and my deposit could be held. So I contacted my landlady explaining this and asked her for my notice in writing, she refused and just kept trying to reassure me my deposit will be given back pending an inspection, and she's not bothered about me giving appropriate notice.

In the meantime my neighbour just moved out and she has the apartment up on daft the last week for a lot more money than what I'm paying (for a larger apartment). She even brought this up in conversation, said she still wasn't sure if she'll go ahead with getting new tenants in despite advertising it.

Her reasoning is that renting is a lot of hassle, it's nothing personal against me (she did write me a decent reference), that if I can't find anything by may we can sort something out with the rent and allow me to stay another while.

What the hell do I take from all this or where do I stand? Do I take her at face value and risk my deposit or be more pushy and demand my notice in writing. We have kind of come to the conclusion that we would like to move to a bigger place but just haven't found said place yet, but when we do chances are we'l have to move with less than two months notice.

Mrs OBumble

Zapperzy wrote: »

Do I take her at face value and risk my deposit or be more pushy and demand my notice in writing. We have kind of come to the conclusion that we would like to move to a bigger place but just haven't found said place yet, but when we do chances are we'l have to move with less than two months notice.

I would be pragmatic rarher than legalistic: don't push for anything. Just look for a better place, get a lease longer than six months on it so you will get part 4 rights, and then negotiate to leave the current place with minimal notice.

4ensic15

Sydney Disgusting Hallway wrote: »

Link? email has replaced post for a large amount of our lives I see no reason by an email wouldn't be legally binding once it meets all the requirements required for a valid notice.

That is not the view of the RTB.

davindub

Zapperzy wrote: »

To update this I never received any more correspondence from my landlady. Iv been in touch with threshold and talked to a number of people at work who pointed out to me that if I were to move in the meantime I haven't given proper notice and my deposit could be held. So I contacted my landlady explaining this and asked her for my notice in writing, she refused and just kept trying to reassure me my deposit will be given back pending an inspection, and she's not bothered about me giving appropriate notice.

In the meantime my neighbour just moved out and she has the apartment up on daft the last week for a lot more money than what I'm paying (for a larger apartment). She even brought this up in conversation, said she still wasn't sure if she'll go ahead with getting new tenants in despite advertising it.

Her reasoning is that renting is a lot of hassle, it's nothing personal against me (she did write me a decent reference), that if I can't find anything by may we can sort something out with the rent and allow me to stay another while.

What the hell do I take from all this or where do I stand? Do I take her at face value and risk my deposit or be more pushy and demand my notice in writing. We have kind of come to the conclusion that we would like to move to a bigger place but just haven't found said place yet, but when we do chances are we'l have to move with less than two months notice.

I doubt she will issue the notice in writing, she knows she cannot terminate the tenancy until 4 years. She probably just wants higher paying tenants at some stage.

As regards deposit retention, damages or rent owing only if she accepts the notice you give her.

4ensic15

4ensic15 wrote: »

That is not the view of the RTB.

Apparently it isn't, doesn't change the fact its ridiculous though.

syntheticjunk

Maybe try to negotiate new rent with her? If you'll move out you'll pay market price anyway. If you'll start fighting - she will kick you out one day anyway and then you won't get any references.

Fian

You don't need her to "renew" the lease - you have a 4 year Part IV tenancy which does not expire for another year. Are you in a rent pressure zone? If so your rent can only be increased 24 months (+90 days notice) after the last rent increase and can only be increased by a maximum of 2% per annum for this increase.

She cannot terminate your part IV tenancy because "renting is too much hassle" and having told you that is the reason she wants to terminate you could probably successfully claim against her through the RTB if she were to try to do so.

If all that sounds ridiculously weighted against the landlord who actually owns the property that is because it is. She is probably locked in to renting to you for another year whether she wants to or not.